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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/13/2008 4:02:59 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
Are saying my very conservative and observant Muslim neighbor who demonstrates love by helping the elderly folks in our neighborhood by doing odd jobs they cannot do for themselves is a redeemed disciple of Christ?
Noand guess what neither does Mr. Bell believe that either. We had a girl from Merry old England who came across the pond and talk to us about her dad who was a muslim follower. Guess what she lives in fear of what he wants done to her. Which is not giving her a great big hug, for being a christian. Lpare that and say that is the case.
If I wanted to and could, how you people who are against emergent things. Would by me like saying all people who are penticostal movement are all nuts. Because some of them in high places of their gatherings are off their rockers.
For one thing the only one they are going to help is their own. For another thing if a person leaves their religion. yare to be found and killed. So you are not comparing apples for apples. But something that it total opposite of what Judism and Christianity practice or should do.
mcleod,
Your avoiding the intent of my question. Is anyone that shows love a redeemed disciple of Christ, even if they reject the gospel or worship other gods?
I'm not sure how the fact that muslims will likely be killed for leaving their religion as anything to do with my question.
Edited to Add: I know muslim's living in Arab countries who regularly and openly help and even shelter non-muslims. I think you might misunderstand the beliefs, practices, and values of everyday muslims.
Noand guess what neither does Mr. Bell believe that either. We had a girl from Merry old England who came across the pond and talk to us about her dad who was a muslim follower. Guess what she lives in fear of what he wants done to her. Which is not giving her a great big hug, for being a christian. Lpare that and say that is the case.
If I wanted to and could, how you people who are against emergent things. Would by me like saying all people who are penticostal movement are all nuts. Because some of them in high places of their gatherings are off their rockers.
And to your last responce you would have a argument with that lady and a jewish rabbi.
In their koran it is stated to kill the infidel. Guess who you are in their eyes? Or maybe you will pay the tax they give you in order to breath.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/13/2008 4:07:24 PM
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jayvance
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quote:
My point for telling this story is that our mesage did not change. However, the way I, my wife, and the girls presented ourselves to these people, as people who cared about them and understood them, rather than as distant suburbanites who didn't really care, insured that if the message was rejected it likely wouldn't be because of the messenger. We present ourselves differently to different folks in order to facilitate a hearing of the message - not being phony, but being sensitive to apperances and behaviors that might make them see us as something other than we are not. I know the director of the mission as a fellow minister, and he truly loves the people he ministers to, but he presented himself in such a way that people didnt believe him. His presentation was far louder than his words and actions that consistently demonstrated that love. As a homeless man I couldn't see it through the noise. So we become all things... but we don't change the message.
I could not agree with you more. I don't think we're really in disagreement. What you are describing is contextualizing the Gospel message in a way that's relevant to the hearer. You and I may choose to define contextualization somewhat differently, but we don't disagree that you have to present the message in a way that is likely to be received positively by the hearer, correct? Whether or not the hearer accepts the message once it has been presented in the proper context is of course, out of our hands. And we both agree that it's not necessary to change the underlying message in order to relate to people from different cultural backgrounds, right?
Jay
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/13/2008 4:12:26 PM
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jayvance
Posts: 58
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quote:
There is a difference between speaking a different language or using local culturally oriented illustrations and the emergent definition of this practice. As an example: a CW member once said (citing McLaren) it is more appropriate to tell postmoderns that Jesus is the best way to the Father than to say He is the only way. Why? Because they both are saying the same thing and postmoderns are more likely to reject the "only way" statement (this member vigorously defended this practice). Emergents believe contextualization means to make the message more palatable for the hearer.
I certainly would not agree with the approach illustrated in your example. Telling someone Jesus is the "best" way to the Father is NOT the same thing as saying Jesus is the "only" way, plain and simple. So you and I are not in disagreement on this point at all.
Jay
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/13/2008 8:14:03 PM
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facedown
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colliefan
what is my view of repentence?
in short - the deepest humblness to the awesomeness of god, the acceptance of that which is given freely, and a life filled with mercy, justice, and humility.
i don't acknowledge the reality of sin?
how in the world did you get that from this post?
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/13/2008 10:22:08 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
colliefan
what is my view of repentence?
in short - the deepest humblness to the awesomeness of god, the acceptance of that which is given freely, and a life filled with mercy, justice, and humility.
i don't acknowledge the reality of sin?
how in the world did you get that from this post?
One cannot have repentance w/o a turning away from a sinful lifestyle.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/13/2008 11:05:07 PM
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rwe2156
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
colliefan
what is my view of repentence?
in short - the deepest humblness to the awesomeness of god, the acceptance of that which is given freely, and a life filled with mercy, justice, and humility.
i don't acknowledge the reality of sin?
how in the world did you get that from this post?
One cannot have repentance w/o a turning away from a sinful lifestyle.
Colliefan is correct.
Facedown - your view of repentance needs some redefining.
OT=turn from sin
NT=change of mind
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/14/2008 10:20:42 AM
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mcleod
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Mushead I can stand to be correct on one thing is that; Some Muslims can are could kind to another indiviual. Butthe leaders of the religion state another way of life. Take for instance of the puppet president of Iran who through jis understanding of Islam wants evry Jew killed off the face of the planet. Where has he recieved this type of thought? Could it be the his religoius up bringing? Chance s are it is. (yes I know that was off the subject of this thread)
Please take in the words of what the Bible has written all over it. That God is good and that all things that are good comes from God. Which would have me to believe even though a person who is lost and going to perish. Shows kindness in their hearts and action. That it came from God. Though I believe that when Gandhi died as I have a understanding of it that part. He didn't put his trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. So as is taught to us to have eternal life. Remember Paul didn't go it Athens screaming to hell if you don't follow Jesus.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/14/2008 10:41:23 AM
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Codegrazer
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quote:
our communion with god, is not shrouded in anything that is created - would you agree?
while many 'good' people may very well be - the opposite is true as well.
i'm not into 'new age' stuff, but what's interesting, is that quite a few evangelical gatherings are very destructive because it falsely leads peopel to assume that their salvation is based on their supposed "repentance" - in other words - if you just repent a little more, then god won't be angry with you - etc, etc.
so, how do you counter it?
I'm not exactly sure what you mean about communion with God not being shrouded in anything created. After all, ALL things were created (except for God) - by God.
quote:
while many 'good' people may very well be - the opposite is true as well.
Again, I'm not 100% certain of your point here, but if you mean that because many "good" people (by man's standards) are not saved (because they are not born again) then the opposite must also be true about Christians who sin even more, then I would agree ONLY to the extent that many people have a "said" faith in Jesus but don't truly believe in their hearts that He was God come in the flesh, etc.
However, if you are making the point that true believers, who lead lives apparently even less "good" than many unsaved people, are less likely to spend eternity with God than their "better" unsaved neighbors - this is NOT what the Word of God tells us. At judgement day there will be two groups being judged. ALL are guilty. The crucial difference between the two will be who has to pay the price for their sins. Born again Christians have their "fine" payed in full by Jesus the Christ. Unsaved others will have to pay the penalty for their sin themselves.
quote:
...quite a few evangelical gatherings are very destructive because it falsely leads peopel to assume that their salvation is based on their supposed "repentance"
First, if anyone is preaching that repentance is the way to salvation they are preaching a false gospel to begin with. I don't personally know of any true Christian evangelicals who preach such a thing. Salvation comes ONLY through the GRACE of God to those who accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour, as God who came in the flesh, died and rose again on the third day. Repentance is an important part of what should come after one is born again, a fruit of that new creation, but not an excuse, or worse, a free pass to sin.
Second, quite a few gatherings of ANY group of fleshly men and women can be "destructive". We can not hold God, Christianity, Evangelicals, Baptists, etc. or the teachings and things of God as revealed in His Holy Word any less true because of the sins of some men.
Further, because all people (Christians too) sin does not make God's Word or His promises any less valid. Said "Christians" who willfully and wantonly sin because they think they are saved, regardless of what they do, will be rather "disappointed" when judgement day comes. This kind of attitude is not unlike the early forms of gnosticism that Paul spent so much time countering in the early church.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/14/2008 11:05:29 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 515
Joined: 5/29/2005
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quote:
Noand guess what neither does Mr. Bell believe that either.
mcleod,
I didn't say anything about what Rob Bell believes. I am referring to the emergent positions on redemption and the reality of hell. The following quotes give us insight into their theology on these two subjects:
quote:
But Christianity's idea that other religions cannot be God's carriers of grace and truth casts a large shadow over our Christian experience." (Samir Selmanovic; Emergent Manifesto of Hope; pg. 191)
Does grace, the central teaching of Christianity, permeate all of reality, or is it soemthing that is alive only for those who possess the New Testament and the Christian tradition? Is the revelation that we have received through Jesus Christ an expression of what is everywhere at all times, or has the Christ event emptied most of the world and time of saving grace and deposited it in one religion namely ours? And more practically, how can we have a genuine two-way conversation with non-Christians about our experience of God if we believe that God withholds his revelation from everyone but Christians. (ibid; pg. 191)
Whatever the meaning of "salvation" and "judgment," we Christians are going to be saved by grace, like everyone else, and judged by our works, like everyone else." (ibid.; pg. 195) (emphasis mine)
For most critics of such open Christianity, the problem with inclusiveness is that it allows for truth to be found in other religions. To emergent Christians, that problem is sweet. (ibid; pg. 196)
Selmanovic's essay in "The Emergent Manifesto of Hope" is consistant with EC theology. This theology of redemption is also known as "universalism." Universalists reject the concept of hell or eternal punishment because, they say, creating a being knowing he or she will spend eternity in hell is not the actions of a loving God.
The following is Brian McLaren's teachings on the subject of redemption and hell:
quote:
We need a postmodern consideration of what salvation means. (A New Kind of Christian; pg. 130)
I don't think that most Christians have any idea what the gospel really is. (ibid; 105)
Writing about the nature of salvation and the Kingdom of God McLaren:
Story two begins with a Creator who desingsn the universe to produce life (Story one is the Big Bang story)...The creator reaches out to us in many ways, constantly inviting us into a relationship of trust. When we die, we enter into the Creator's presence so that in som sense this life that we now live is a prelude to a dimension of life that never dies. (ibid; pg. 86)
Now let's run through the same thought pattern living in the second story. I understand that I am going to die someday. What's the consequence of that?...I live life to the fullest, live as God intends it to be lived. What's the consequence of that? Well, if I live this way, then the world will become a very different kind of place, so that in some real way we can we are entering and experiencing the kingodm of God. (ibid; pg. 87)
Referring to the death of the person who lived according to the above description of the Kingdom:
Imagine that you have just died and passed through the doorway of death. And you enter heaven. And it is a place of intense brightness, a place fragant with goodness, a place alive with love...In this place, people are humble and genuinely intereste in others. They are eager to serve one another, and they love to laugh and dance and be free as children...It is a place of true freedom, trust, and intimacy. (ibid; pg 90)
Referring to another person that also dies, but who lives as if there is no Kingdom of God:
...that person has lived his life cramped in hatred and fear, tight in guilt and greed, ingrown in lust and selfishness. He has spent every day of his life complaining and being bitter and blaming others and being ungratefule...he has become an expert at lying and cheating and using others. He is poud, arrogant, unwilling to admit he is wrong...These aren't just the behaviors he has practiced; these are the features of the person of the person he has become. Now, how would that person feel?
Could it be that the very light that seems beautiful to you would seem blinding to him? Could the very warmth of the love of that place that to you is so perfect seem to him horrible? Could the acceptance and love and trust and openness that welcome you seem to him disgusting, weak, terrifying, insipid, or repsulive?...Maybe it's not that there are two places beyond the door of death, heaven and hell. Sometimes, I wonder if hell is just what heaven feels like for those who haven't learned in this life what this life is intended to teach. (ibid. 91)
In the last quote McLaren presents this argument as nothing more than something he wonders about. However, in other venues he dogmatically proclaims that hell does not exist; that the church has misunderstood the Biblical teachings. If hell does not exist than the unredeemed either cease to exist or are, as McLaren teaches, going to heaven. That's universalism, and it is consistantly taught by emergents.
As a member of the EC, and a disciple of McLaren, I think it is wise to be certain about what Bell teaches before declaring one way or the other.
< Message edited by mushhead -- 8/14/2008 11:12:46 PM >
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/14/2008 11:13:00 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 515
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From: Kearns
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jayvance
quote:
There is a difference between speaking a different language or using local culturally oriented illustrations and the emergent definition of this practice. As an example: a CW member once said (citing McLaren) it is more appropriate to tell postmoderns that Jesus is the best way to the Father than to say He is the only way. Why? Because they both are saying the same thing and postmoderns are more likely to reject the "only way" statement (this member vigorously defended this practice). Emergents believe contextualization means to make the message more palatable for the hearer.
I certainly would not agree with the approach illustrated in your example. Telling someone Jesus is the "best" way to the Father is NOT the same thing as saying Jesus is the "only" way, plain and simple. So you and I are not in disagreement on this point at all.
Jay
As you said in a previous post, you and I agree on much.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/15/2008 12:20:35 AM
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jayvance
Posts: 58
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quote:
As you said in a previous post, you and I agree on much.
Amen! In every discussion, it's always good to celebrate the things we agree on and not just focus on differences of opinion. 
Jay
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/15/2008 6:41:15 AM
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facedown
Posts: 906
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colliefan
i think i said that - only in words and intentions more in keeping with my tradition.
rwe2156
can you explain your post 206 in more detail?
codegrazer
are you then asking for more clarity, or seeking to make your statement?
wasn't speaking of "mans standards" in general - but by the standards of the "church". "born again christians have their fine payed in full by jesus the christ. unsaved others will have to pay for the penalty for their sin themselves". incorrect. though it is correct to say that if anyone be in christ, he is a new creation. you see, god is reconciling the world to himself in christ, not counting mens sins against them. of course, jesus came into the world to save sinners (folks just like you and i). and that the world and its desires shall pass away.
gotta run....
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/15/2008 10:38:55 AM
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mcleod
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Mushhead those quotes you have from Mclaren seem to have for one thing spelling mistakes all over the place. One thing if I understand correctly is that Brian is a english major. I can't picture him having spelling issues. At lest the one's when I went to college and majored in it. Didn't have the problem that I do with spelling sometimes.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/15/2008 12:06:43 PM
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EStan
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That's your response? Spelling mistakes?  I'd say it's likely that Mushhead transcribed those quotes directly from McLaren's book, "A New Kind of Christian", hence the page references. Are you saying that what McLaren obviously said in his book isn't really what he meant to say?
And yes, I've heard several of these emergents - McLaren, Paggit, Bell, Jones - make similar statements in interviews, or in other writings that can be found on the web. And yes, it's called "universalism". If you're going to heaven anyway, why on earth would you need a Savior? 
_____________________________
Eternal Father, grant that through the tears of repentance I may see more clearly the brightness and glories of the saving cross.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/15/2008 12:46:26 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2909
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EStan
That's your response? Spelling mistakes? I'd say it's likely that Mushhead transcribed those quotes directly from McLaren's book, "A New Kind of Christian", hence the page references. Are you saying that what McLaren obviously said in his book isn't really what he meant to say?
And yes, I've heard several of these emergents - McLaren, Paggit, Bell, Jones - make similar statements in interviews, or in other writings that can be found on the web. And yes, it's called "universalism". If you're going to heaven anyway, why on earth would you need a Savior?
Estan -
I'm having trouble finding anything that would say that Bell takes a universalist approach. Can you point me to some resources?
Thanks.
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/15/2008 1:57:18 PM
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10SNE1?
Posts: 179
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: EStan
That's your response? Spelling mistakes? I'd say it's likely that Mushhead transcribed those quotes directly from McLaren's book, "A New Kind of Christian", hence the page references. Are you saying that what McLaren obviously said in his book isn't really what he meant to say?
And yes, I've heard several of these emergents - McLaren, Paggit, Bell, Jones - make similar statements in interviews, or in other writings that can be found on the web. And yes, it's called "universalism". If you're going to heaven anyway, why on earth would you need a Savior?
Estan -
I'm having trouble finding anything that would say that Bell takes a universalist approach. Can you point me to some resources?
Thanks.
BT
Brian McLaren is speaking at Mars Hill Church in Grand Rapids this Sunday. Therefore it appears that Rob Bell either a) agrees with McLaren's theology or b) has no problem turning his pulpit ( and his flock) over to a guy who is preaching a different gospel.
While I applaud folks who are secure enough in their faith to read and rationally discuss varying opinions, I would draw the line at my Senior Pastor inviting anyone who denies the exclusiveness of Christ's sacrifice to lead our weekly worship gathering.
Host a open forum to discuss, dialog and/or debate? Sure, use the Fellowship Hall! But preach the morning message....?
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/15/2008 2:24:22 PM
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EStan
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a few months back, Rob Bell participated in an interfaith symposium called "Seeds of Compassion". He joined a panel that included a Sikh, a Muslim, the Dalai Lama, Bishop Desmond Tutu, and I don't know who else. You can find the entire webcast on the Seeds of Compassion website.
Pastor Bell gave nothing but watered-down, inclusive, "We all worship the same god" responses to the questions posed to him. It's worth checking out.
_____________________________
Eternal Father, grant that through the tears of repentance I may see more clearly the brightness and glories of the saving cross.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/15/2008 3:20:56 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EStan
Pastor Bell gave nothing but watered-down, inclusive, "We all worship the same god" responses to the questions posed to him. It's worth checking out.
If I read the transcript correctly, it was the Sikh gentleman that used the "we all worship the same God" type of response. I didn't see anything in the transcript that was universalist.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/15/2008 3:23:32 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2909
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 10SNE1?
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: EStan
That's your response? Spelling mistakes? I'd say it's likely that Mushhead transcribed those quotes directly from McLaren's book, "A New Kind of Christian", hence the page references. Are you saying that what McLaren obviously said in his book isn't really what he meant to say?
And yes, I've heard several of these emergents - McLaren, Paggit, Bell, Jones - make similar statements in interviews, or in other writings that can be found on the web. And yes, it's called "universalism". If you're going to heaven anyway, why on earth would you need a Savior?
Estan -
I'm having trouble finding anything that would say that Bell takes a universalist approach. Can you point me to some resources?
Thanks.
BT
Brian McLaren is speaking at Mars Hill Church in Grand Rapids this Sunday. Therefore it appears that Rob Bell either a) agrees with McLaren's theology or b) has no problem turning his pulpit ( and his flock) over to a guy who is preaching a different gospel.
While I applaud folks who are secure enough in their faith to read and rationally discuss varying opinions, I would draw the line at my Senior Pastor inviting anyone who denies the exclusiveness of Christ's sacrifice to lead our weekly worship gathering.
Host a open forum to discuss, dialog and/or debate? Sure, use the Fellowship Hall! But preach the morning message....?
Torn on that one. I've had something of a classical education that values the offering up of different viewpoints. Different folks could have different ideas on that. It's a judgement call. To me, it looks like the EMC is willing to go further in that direction than most, so it would be a bit of a leap to assume that Bell holds to 100% of BM's ideas.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/15/2008 8:59:56 PM
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facedown
Posts: 906
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
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codegrazer
quote:
First, if anyone is preaching that repentance is the way to salvation they are preaching a false gospel to begin with. I don't personally know of any true Christian evangelicals who preach such a thing. Salvation comes ONLY through the GRACE of God to those who accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour, as God who came in the flesh, died and rose again on the third day. Repentance is an important part of what should come after one is born again, a fruit of that new creation, but not an excuse, or worse, a free pass to sin.
?
quote:
that those who truly repent of their sins are justified or accounted righteous before God
so, if someone heard this statement, they heard a "false gospel"?
quote:
I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again.
or this?
quote:
But to receive salvation, turn form a personal relationship, turn away from our sins, and follow Him
or this?
what does "salvation" mean to you? a singular moment in time, when god alters the "after-life" destination?
and what does "repentance is an imortant part" mean?
are you suggesting some sort of formula? belief + acceptance + (or -) repentance, = "salvation"?
lastly, i can't say with 100% certainty; however, i'm willing to bet that most of the churches in my tri-county area (deep south), should some one "new" walk through the doors (let alone folks who've been around a while), towards the end of the service are going to hear something like "if you died tonight"...or "everyone is a liar, a thief...a sinner"...and followed somehow by "if you'll just repent of your sins, turn away from the world..." sure their will probably be some "trust in god/jesus" or "accept what he's done for you" - but the jist is that "if" you don't "repent" then you haven't really "accepted".
thoughts?
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/15/2008 9:06:30 PM
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facedown
Posts: 906
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mushead
how, exactly in post 209 did you understand "universalism" in the quotes?
after all, in any notion of 'universalism', is there really any use for a word like "saved"?
lastly, if you are going to make a statement such as "so and so"
"...dogmatically proclaims that hell does not exist...." etc, etc
i'd sure expect to see some witness to some source documentation of these "dogmatic" statements; which, btw would not have to be something that had to be interpreted - but truly 'dogmatic', iow: "hell doesn't exist, at all, in the least bit...everyone who is anyone, who has ever lived, regardless of their faith, beliefs, gravity of sins, walk of life, time lived, place lived (etc) is going to spend the rest of eternity in heaven, chillin' with god having a party"
you know...something like that -
i'm looking forward to it
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-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/15/2008 10:51:00 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 515
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Mushhead those quotes you have from Mclaren seem to have for one thing spelling mistakes all over the place. One thing if I understand correctly is that Brian is a english major. I can't picture him having spelling issues. At lest the one's when I went to college and majored in it. Didn't have the problem that I do with spelling sometimes.
I don't know that they are spelling errors as much as they are typos (though I might have mispelled that).
quote:
That's your response? Spelling mistakes? I'd say it's likely that Mushhead transcribed those quotes directly from McLaren's book, "A New Kind of Christian", hence the page references.
EStan,
Thank you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
mushead
how, exactly in post 209 did you understand "universalism" in the quotes?
after all, in any notion of 'universalism', is there really any use for a word like "saved"?
facedown,
McLaren's suggestion that there are two destinations in eternity; and his suggestion that those who join God's kingdom work and those who do not all go to heaven.
quote:
lastly, if you are going to make a statement such as "so and so"
"...dogmatically proclaims that hell does not exist...." etc, etc
i'd sure expect to see some witness to some source documentation of these "dogmatic" statements
I have posted that so many times in the past that I didn't think it necessary to post it again. Anyway, here is a link to a podcast in which McLaren clearly explains himself.
McLaren Interview
You will have to open the link to the actual interview from that page. The intervies link is found about a third of the way down the page and is clearly marked as "2nd half of interview". It might be helpful to listen to the first half which is linked immediately above the second half.
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MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/17/2008 8:34:46 AM
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facedown
Posts: 906
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
Status: offline
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mushead
i disagree with your response(s)
and, there was no 'dogmatic' statement suggesting what i've asked to be presented.
pax
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-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/17/2008 6:25:46 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 515
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
mushead
i disagree with your response(s)
pax
facedown,
What exactly do you disagree with?
quote:
and, there was no 'dogmatic' statement suggesting what i've asked to be presented.
Maybe your not seeing dogmatism in his statements because you don't understand his style. Have you read his book, "The Secret Message of Jesus?" He explains his style in that book.
One thing is certain, he teaches the same thing in every one of his books that I've read, as well as in article after article. He doesn't suggest that he is wrong, only that he might not yet fully understand the issue. If he thinks the possibility exists that he isn't correct, then he should say so, and he should also say that the Biblical version of hell might be correct. In the absence of either of those qualifiers, it is not unreasonable to say that McLaren is being dogmatic.
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MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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