Bible and Slavery

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wordsnpic -> Bible and Slavery (5/19/2008 8:46:48 AM)
There is a new book out called Letter to Christians by Sam ?. I saw it this weekend at my local library. It calls into question among other things the Bible's acceptance of slavery as part of every day life. This is something that continually comes up, and it is troubling to me. Jesus didn't seem to decry slavery, did he? Does anyone have comments on this, supporting argruments? How do you respond to this? I have been thinking about it all weekend?

AboundinginHisGrace -> RE: Bible and Slavery (5/19/2008 9:21:54 AM)
Most of the time the slaves were taken from lands that were conquered, I guess taking them into slavery is better than the aternative(death). Jesus didn't come to be a political person, he came to purge the sins of the world.

phreddy -> RE: Bible and Slavery (5/19/2008 9:41:11 AM)
Slavery in the Bible was very different then slavery was practiced in America and other modern countries. People who could not care for themselves, sold themselves into slavery so that they would have a roof over their heads and food. There was no such thing as welfare. Acoording to Jewish law slaves could repurchase themselves, and at jubilee every 50 years they were all freed. Th Bible does not condone slavery so much as recognize that it was a very real part of life during the times.

earthless -> RE: Bible and Slavery (5/19/2008 9:43:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: phreddy Slavery in the Bible was very different then slavery was practiced in America and other modern countries. People who could not care for themselves, sold themselves into slavery so that they would have a roof over their heads and food. There was no such thing as welfare. Acoording to Jewish law slaves could repurchase themselves, and at jubilee every 50 years they were all freed. Th Bible does not condone slavery so much as recognize that it was a very real part of life during the times. Exactly, slavery in those times was akin to our labor unions today. They were good and needed.

sunofone -> RE: Bible and Slavery (5/19/2008 10:34:42 AM)
I came across this guy Sam the other day via you tube. He and other atheist challenge all theist on the basis of intellect,and reasoning.Their arguments are to challenge people of faith based on the incredulousness of it. The issue of slavery is but one of the objections raised.Truth is the bible is full of messages that a free society would find impossible to support in modern times. Slavery is but one of them.The bottom line is,either you dismiss the notion of God,or faith based on logic,or reasoning;or you accept the fact that God's judgment does not even attempt to square itself with our reasoning. You can do one of two things as I see it concerning atheist.You can look at their arguments for denying the faith,and see clearly why God has said the fool has said in his heart there is no God,or you can spend your time being unsettled by their railings and accusations. I'm sure there are some who attempt to answer their challenges,like apologist and more seasoned Christians.This is a battleground that like any war will most certainly end in casualties. At some point, in my opinion and observation you have to accept,that while God is no fool,he presents to us a message that is foolishness to our thinking. One of the main arguments the atheist make against God is his refusal to present himself clearly and rationally.His refusal or unwillingness,inability to reveal himself in undeniable ways,can only mean their really is no God. Atheist reject the God of any theist based on these assertions that they feel are facts.Any Christian knows that God actually hides himself from men.God must be both sought after and revealed. Like it or not their is a price of admission to have audience with God,and the price is faith.Faith is submission of the will and faculties of man.It is arriving at a place where you admit to yourself that you don't have all the answers,and that you have needs that can not be met through yourself. Key to any non-believer, or atheist is their refusal to submit to deity.God has shown that he can reach even atheist,as evidenced by the conversion of the same. Atheist on the other hand also prove that many who profess faith in God can also be deconverted.At the end of the day faith is all we have,and is really all we need. If you don't have or properly exercise your faith it's back to the garden you go,where you allow the serpent to separate you from God.Fight the atheist off with anything but a scripturally supported argument,and you are most assuredly on your way to being their next casualty. So to the issue of the bible and slavery.Yes their were slaves in times of the bible.No God did not,nor did Jesus,or Paul denounce it.It was not slavery in the sense that we know it, or think about it,IE... America slavery practices, and the like. It did however speak to Mans treatment of Man,and as I said earlier the bible is full of practices that modern day Christians would have a hard time supporting today,IE.. killing of homosexuals,unruly teenagers etc.. So I guess everyman has to decide for himself what's his deal breaker concerning faith,if one should exist.I only know of one,and that is proof that Jesus did not arise from death as he said he did. I'm sure for others the bar is set much lower,like whether the bible contains stories that are incredulous,defy reasoning,or our moral authority.

tracydolls -> RE: Bible and Slavery (5/19/2008 12:47:48 PM)
I am a slave to Jesus Christ.

bluestone -> RE: Bible and Slavery (5/19/2008 12:58:14 PM)
Slaves were many times taken from conquered nations. Many nations at the time practiced this, so it was common place. I don't think that makes it right, but it was the culture of the time. Kill the enemies or make slaves of them. Slavery as practiced in the United States and Europe was worse, IMO. Profiteering on the sale of slaves, and slaves being taken for the sake of money. Remember: To truly understand the Bible in the context it is written, you have to use the historical perspective. Reading and interpreting it with your 21st century culture riding along will lead to misinterpretations.

DaveW -> RE: Bible and Slavery (5/19/2008 2:02:15 PM)
If you read thru the Torah (5 books of Moses) you will find that very specific limitations were placed on the treatment of slaves. They were never to be regarded as personal property.

SavedByGraceMD -> RE: Bible and Slavery (5/19/2008 8:37:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW If you read thru the Torah (5 books of Moses) you will find that very specific limitations were placed on the treatment of slaves. They were never to be regarded as personal property. I agree, while it doesn't denounce slavery, it gave guidelines to how it was to be done. It wasn't like the slavery we know of today. sunofone, I have a question for you? maybe we could start another thread on it, you said quote: Any Christian knows that God actually hides himself from men.God must be both sought after and revealed. I am one Christian that does not know this. I don't see Him hiding at all. I look out my window and I see his revelation in plain sight. When I think of Jesus I see His truth take on flesh, and become revealed. The way I see it, from the beginning of time, He has done nothing but try to reveal Himself to us. But for some reason, we always need more. We don't do the revealing. He already has. He is a God of wonders, and has shown us the way to Him. I am sorry for taking this post off topic, but I had to respond to what I read here.

SonInMe1 -> RE: Bible and Slavery (5/19/2008 8:55:57 PM)
If slavery was a core essential to our belief then the bible would say so. If you hate the bible you can find reasons to do so.

sunofone -> RE: Bible and Slavery (5/19/2008 9:36:52 PM)
quote: I am one Christian that does not know this. I don't see Him hiding at all. I look out my window and I see his revelation in plain sight. When I think of Jesus I see His truth take on flesh, and become revealed. The way I see it, from the beginning of time, He has done nothing but try to reveal Himself to us. But for some reason, we always need more. We don't do the revealing. He already has. He is a God of wonders, and has shown us the way to Him. I am sorry for taking this post off topic, but I had to respond to what I read here. I know where you're coming from.See Matt 11 vs 25,Col1 vs25-27,1st Cor 1 vs18-31. I do get what you are saying as well though.Rom1 vs19-20 I hope you see better where I was coming from now.

SavedByGraceMD -> RE: Bible and Slavery (5/19/2008 10:06:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunofone quote: I am one Christian that does not know this. I don't see Him hiding at all. I look out my window and I see his revelation in plain sight. When I think of Jesus I see His truth take on flesh, and become revealed. The way I see it, from the beginning of time, He has done nothing but try to reveal Himself to us. But for some reason, we always need more. We don't do the revealing. He already has. He is a God of wonders, and has shown us the way to Him. I am sorry for taking this post off topic, but I had to respond to what I read here. I know where you're coming from.See Matt 11 vs 25,Col1 vs25-27,1st Cor 1 vs18-31. I do get what you are saying as well though.Rom1 vs19-20 I hope you see better where I was coming from now. Ok, I got you now. It was just the way you said it I guess, made it seem as any true believer should know that God is a mystery, and hides Himself from men. While it remains true that very many things about God remain a mystery, the fact that He is, and that He loves us has been revealed. What He wants us to know, we do. Thanks for your response.

sunofone -> RE: Bible and Slavery (5/19/2008 11:30:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD quote: ORIGINAL: sunofone quote: I am one Christian that does not know this. I don't see Him hiding at all. I look out my window and I see his revelation in plain sight. When I think of Jesus I see His truth take on flesh, and become revealed. The way I see it, from the beginning of time, He has done nothing but try to reveal Himself to us. But for some reason, we always need more. We don't do the revealing. He already has. He is a God of wonders, and has shown us the way to Him. I am sorry for taking this post off topic, but I had to respond to what I read here. I know where you're coming from.See Matt 11 vs 25,Col1 vs25-27,1st Cor 1 vs18-31. I do get what you are saying as well though.Rom1 vs19-20 I hope you see better where I was coming from now. Ok, I got you now. It was just the way you said it I guess, made it seem as any true believer should know that God is a mystery, and hides Himself from men. While it remains true that very many things about God remain a mystery, the fact that He is, and that He loves us has been revealed. What He wants us to know, we do. Thanks for your response. I'm glad we got it all straight.Thanks I've noticed a few topics being opened up lately concerning people losing their faith,and this topic just seemed to me to be one more heading in that direction. I guess I feel a sense of protective mode for the ones who are stumbling.It really is about our faith for us,once we submit to him he then opens up our understanding to begin to see some of the mysteries,that the atheist can not see. This story is spiritual,this bible is for the believer

GroupW -> RE: Bible and Slavery (5/20/2008 12:37:16 AM)
Interesting book on the topic - "Slaves, Women, and Homosexuals" by Wm. Webb. Whether you agree with the author or not, it's a stimulating read and offers some ideas on how to resolve the perceived conflict. BT

Godddy -> RE: Bible and Slavery (5/20/2008 1:47:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunofone I came across this guy Sam the other day via you tube. He and other atheist challenge all theist on the basis of intellect,and reasoning.Their arguments are to challenge people of faith based on the incredulousness of it. The issue of slavery is but one of the objections raised.Truth is the bible is full of messages that a free society would find impossible to support in modern times. Slavery is but one of them.The bottom line is,either you dismiss the notion of God,or faith based on logic,or reasoning;or you accept the fact that God's judgment does not even attempt to square itself with our reasoning. You can do one of two things as I see it concerning atheist.You can look at their arguments for denying the faith,and see clearly why God has said the fool has said in his heart there is no God,or you can spend your time being unsettled by their railings and accusations. I'm sure there are some who attempt to answer their challenges,like apologist and more seasoned Christians.This is a battleground that like any war will most certainly end in casualties. At some point, in my opinion and observation you have to accept,that while God is no fool,he presents to us a message that is foolishness to our thinking. One of the main arguments the atheist make against God is his refusal to present himself clearly and rationally.His refusal or unwillingness,inability to reveal himself in undeniable ways,can only mean their really is no God. Atheist reject the God of any theist based on these assertions that they feel are facts.Any Christian knows that God actually hides himself from men.God must be both sought after and revealed. Like it or not their is a price of admission to have audience with God,and the price is faith.Faith is submission of the will and faculties of man.It is arriving at a place where you admit to yourself that you don't have all the answers,and that you have needs that can not be met through yourself. Key to any non-believer, or atheist is their refusal to submit to deity.God has shown that he can reach even atheist,as evidenced by the conversion of the same. Atheist on the other hand also prove that many who profess faith in God can also be deconverted.At the end of the day faith is all we have,and is really all we need. If you don't have or properly exercise your faith it's back to the garden you go,where you allow the serpent to separate you from God.Fight the atheist off with anything but a scripturally supported argument,and you are most assuredly on your way to being their next casualty. So to the issue of the bible and slavery.Yes their were slaves in times of the bible.No God did not,nor did Jesus,or Paul denounce it.It was not slavery in the sense that we know it, or think about it,IE... America slavery practices, and the like. It did however speak to Mans treatment of Man,and as I said earlier the bible is full of practices that modern day Christians would have a hard time supporting today,IE.. killing of homosexuals,unruly teenagers etc.. So I guess everyman has to decide for himself what's his deal breaker concerning faith,if one should exist.I only know of one,and that is proof that Jesus did not arise from death as he said he did. I'm sure for others the bar is set much lower,like whether the bible contains stories that are incredulous,defy reasoning,or our moral authority. Very well put, [:)] God bless you. Do I have your permission to quote you.

sunofone -> RE: Bible and Slavery (5/20/2008 9:01:15 AM)
quote: Very well put, God bless you. Do I have your permission to quote you. [Send Private Message] Add a note (optional, 100 characters): Is this bookmark public? It would make for a very lengthy quote don't you think[:D]

Godddy -> RE: Bible and Slavery (5/20/2008 6:09:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunofone quote: Very well put, God bless you. Do I have your permission to quote you. [Send Private Message] Add a note (optional, 100 characters): Is this bookmark public? It would make for a very lengthy quote don't you think[:D] Yes it would but you put it so beautifully, LOL

deermousie -> RE: Bible and Slavery (5/20/2008 10:13:33 PM)
Those of us who are in Christ Jesus are not under the Law, but the Law does tell us God's opinion on matters and we do well to notice. God tells us about kidnapping ("man stealing" in Hebrew - surely what happened to many people during the last 400+ years, who were captured and hauled away as slaves): �He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death." Exodus 21:16 Whoa! So removing a person's liberty, selling them as a possession or keeping that person as a possession, in God's eyes, is worthy of death. �If a man is found kidnapping any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and mistreats him or sells him, then that kidnapper shall die; and you shall put away the evil from among you." Deuteronomy 24:7 God calls it evil. The penalty of an unrepentant slaver is physical death in the OT, and the promise of God's wrath after death in the NT (which is far worse). 1 Tim. 1:10 includes kidnapping in the list of things "contrary to sound doctrine." Slavery is still an issue today: look at Sudan, for instance. But it's going on in lots of places. It's evil, it's contrary to sound biblical doctrine, and the slaver in is danger of God's judgement.

Godddy -> RE: Bible and Slavery (5/21/2008 2:27:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: deermousie Those of us who are in Christ Jesus are not under the Law, but the Law does tell us God's opinion on matters and we do well to notice. God tells us about kidnapping ("man stealing" in Hebrew - surely what happened to many people during the last 400+ years, who were captured and hauled away as slaves): �He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death." Exodus 21:16 Whoa! So removing a person's liberty, selling them as a possession or keeping that person as a possession, in God's eyes, is worthy of death. �If a man is found kidnapping any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and mistreats him or sells him, then that kidnapper shall die; and you shall put away the evil from among you." Deuteronomy 24:7 God calls it evil. The penalty of an unrepentant slaver is physical death in the OT, and the promise of God's wrath after death in the NT (which is far worse). 1 Tim. 1:10 includes kidnapping in the list of things "contrary to sound doctrine." Slavery is still an issue today: look at Sudan, for instance. But it's going on in lots of places. It's evil, it's contrary to sound biblical doctrine, and the slaver in is danger of God's judgement. Thank you so much for this, posting on slavery, I was having a discussion about this with someone, I knew it was in the bible, but couldn't find it. Blessings to you

deermousie -> RE: Bible and Slavery (5/21/2008 2:33:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GodddyThank you so much for this, posting on slavery, I was having a discussion about this with someone, I knew it was in the bible, but couldn't find it. Blessings to you You're welcome, Goddy! And I'll take all the blessings I can get! May God bless you as well. I'm glad I could help; this issue has bugged me for a long time, but didn't come together in my head until I saw this thread. God is good to all of us.

Godddy -> RE: Bible and Slavery (5/21/2008 8:58:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: deermousie quote: ORIGINAL: GodddyThank you so much for this, posting on slavery, I was having a discussion about this with someone, I knew it was in the bible, but couldn't find it. Blessings to you You're welcome, Goddy! And I'll take all the blessings I can get! May God bless you as well. I'm glad I could help; this issue has bugged me for a long time, but didn't come together in my head until I saw this thread. God is good to all of us. Deermousie, I was wondering about this verse in Luke 12: 46-48; Is Jesus, talking about those who believe in God, but don't do the will of God, "Like hearer of the word but not doer's of the word."

Butterflytearz -> RE: Bible and Slavery (6/2/2008 1:43:14 PM)
1Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus If the Son sets you free,, you are free indeed![:)]

HisCovenant -> RE: Bible and Slavery (6/2/2008 1:55:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: phreddy Slavery in the Bible was very different then slavery was practiced in America and other modern countries. People who could not care for themselves, sold themselves into slavery so that they would have a roof over their heads and food. There was no such thing as welfare. Acoording to Jewish law slaves could repurchase themselves, and at jubilee every 50 years they were all freed. Th Bible does not condone slavery so much as recognize that it was a very real part of life during the times. I agree. Slavery (as allowed by God) was a provision for enemies and a way for those in debt to work to have their needs met. I also think there could be the benefit of learning to manage resources better during the slavery period, but would be hard-pressed to find where the Bible stated that. Just my opinion. [;)] Anyhow, slavery by the Jews was not to be anything like the racism and abuse that Americans (and other countries) think of as being a part of slavery. As has been discussed, things like kidnapping and mistreating those in your care are not supported by the Bible... Racism is not supported by the Bible either. Staying away from/ killing during war Pagans because of their worship practices infecting the people of God's worship is commanded. Disliking someone simply because they are foreign was not commanded.

Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Bible and Slavery (6/2/2008 2:04:57 PM)
I know many people in America today who are slaves, and most of the ones I know are believers. They have purposely sold themselves out to such entities as Amerrican Express, Visa, Sears, Nordstroms, Master Card, second and third mortgages, etc. Some who are slaves to these entities have been enslaved by illness and similar life circumstances, but most are slaves because they sold out. In Bible times, they didn't have credit cards, so some slavery was obvious. Today, it is not so obvious, because we live in homes, drive vehicles, and look like we are living our own lives, carefree. But the fact is that many are in slavery and just don't know it. They don't know it when they recieve their bills, and they don't know it when the file for bankruptcy.

wordsnpic -> RE: Bible and Slavery (6/5/2008 4:35:14 PM)
quote: Most of the time the slaves were taken from lands that were conquered, I guess taking them into slavery is better than the aternative(death). Jesus didn't come to be a political person, he came to purge the sins of the world. Slavery is not a political issue. It is a human issue.

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