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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 11:49:22 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
Maybe the confusion stems from the idea that just being friends means not clearly conveying your intentions, it does not. Calling it friends first as a way to avoid revealing your intentions really would be wimpy.
This is true. But so many women do not communicate that they see a potential for more than friends later. So the poor guy finds himself in the friends ghetto with no hope of ever getting out. So he looks elsewhere. So ladies, the lesson here is if youwant to be friends first be Blatantly obvious that you are interested in being more than frioend with the guy. (and give him some hope of a timeline "maybe we can try dating in 6 months if we hit it off as friends")
quote:
Spending time together is a requirement for building any friendship, but most of what is involved in modern "dating" is not; often it really hinders the growth of a friendship. I don't think there is anything wrong with a man being bold enough to step up and ask a women to spend some time with him, but I don't think the time spent should look much like what most consider a "date".
I agree with what you are saying but think you are painting with an anti-dating broad brush. A date is time two people spend together. For me it's normally a trip to the zoo, hiking, maybe dinner. Conversation in a public place.
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To me a big indicator of a wrong approach to dating is that the friendship is lost when the dating relationship ends. If "dating" is done right I believe the results would be a lot more friendships that survive after the a couple realizes that there was no real dating potential.
Again I disagree with you. If a man is intentional about finding a wife why would he be filling his life with other women who he will have to cut off once he finds his wife? I know that I wouldn't want to be hanging around a woman who I found attractive but who didn't see me that way. Why rub salt in the wound? Also why prolong the agony. If the two of you don't work, cut it off now.
GBYAKY
J
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Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/20/2008 11:57:10 PM
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BugLady
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quote:
So ladies, the lesson here is if youwant to be friends first be Blatantly obvious that you are interested in being more than frioend with the guy. (and give him some hope of a timeline "maybe we can try dating in 6 months if we hit it off as friends")
But that's not how it works, John. Relationships must be allowed to unfold over time. Starting out as a friends means, to me, that we will be able to continue as friends regardless where the relationship leads. That means he'll even continue to be my friend in romance. I personally think the best romantic relationships are the one's where both partners view the other as their best friend. That's how I sees it anyway..............
< Message edited by BugLady -- 5/21/2008 12:03:21 AM >
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/21/2008 12:08:32 AM
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Focusing
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
To me a big indicator of a wrong approach to dating is that the friendship is lost when the dating relationship ends. If "dating" is done right I believe the results would be a lot more friendships that survive after the a couple realizes that there was no real dating potential.
Yes, I completely agree.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/21/2008 12:14:28 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3000
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quote:
Again I disagree with you. If a man is intentional about finding a wife why would he be filling his life with other women who he will have to cut off once he finds his wife? I know that I wouldn't want to be hanging around a woman who I found attractive but who didn't see me that way. Why rub salt in the wound? Also why prolong the agony. If the two of you don't work, cut it off now.
First, because I think women offer far more value than just as a potential date. I really value the relationships I have with women whom I know I will never marry (some because they are already married).
Second, while it is true that if I ever marry, the friendships that I have with other single women must change if they are to survive, they do not need to be "cut off". Spending time with them alone would be inappropriate after a marriage, but spending time as a couple would not. If any relationship was kept completely pure before I was married, there would be very little reason why my wife would not expect that the same would hold true after marriage. This is just one of the benefits of dating with real godly boundaries.
Last, My Sunday school class is composed almost entirely of married couples, out of about 70 people I am one of about three singles. Many of the friendships I have within that class our with women who are married (I am also good friends with their husbands). As a single father I have been greatly blessed by those friendships because there are times where as a man, I really could use the perspective of a mother who has gone through similar circumstances, their husbands usually see things exactly as I do so when I speak to them it is usually "speaking to the choir" and often they are the first to tell me that I need to speak with their wife; this has been especially true as I was raising my daughter. Sometimes they have even taken my children out when I really felt that a womens voice would be much better than my own. Yes, there are clear boundaries around those friendships, but I am so thankful that God has allowed those friends to be a part of my life. I am so glad that neither they nor their husbands felt the need to "cut me off" once I became single; the reality is that, in many ways, my friendships grew as they stepped up to meet the needs I had through a very difficult time.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/21/2008 12:27:58 AM
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BugLady
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What kind of friendship would it be in the first place if it required "cutting off"? That doesn't make sense to me. It really is all a matter of healthy boundaries from the beginning... not to mention plain old maturity.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/21/2008 9:59:45 AM
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jlp1
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quote:
That was a good read. Note the circumstance she most often uses. It's a guy who wants to get to know the girl. Not an established friend. By the time a guy becomes a close friend he's normally already blown his chances as she stops looking at him as a potential husband and starts looking at him as a friend.
Unless she is interested in him and waiting for him to make a move.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/21/2008 3:04:55 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BugLady
quote:
So ladies, the lesson here is if youwant to be friends first be Blatantly obvious that you are interested in being more than frioend with the guy. (and give him some hope of a timeline "maybe we can try dating in 6 months if we hit it off as friends")
But that's not how it works, John. Relationships must be allowed to unfold over time. Starting out as a friends means, to me, that we will be able to continue as friends regardless where the relationship leads. That means he'll even continue to be my friend in romance. I personally think the best romantic relationships are the one's where both partners view the other as their best friend. That's how I sees it anyway..............
If he is interested in you as a potential, but you see him only as a friend, he will look elsewhere to find his bride. UNLESS you tell him up front that you see potential in him for that.
A man who is intentional about finding a wife isn't going to wait around for someone who's not interested in him.
Now I suppose there are some couples where neither was intentional about finding a spouse and they became friends and ended up married. And if a man has a limitless amount of time to find his wife it might even work, But I wouldn't bet on it.
If I am dating someone they automatically become my friend. In fact, since anyone I date will be someone whom I can spend the rest of my life with, they quickly become my best friend. As all husbands and wives should be. When we reach the point where romance starts then the friendship continues, as it must.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/21/2008 3:23:45 PM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
Now I suppose there are some couples where neither was intentional about finding a spouse and they became friends and ended up married. And if a man has a limitless amount of time to find his wife it might even work, But I wouldn't bet on it.
John, no one . . . not you, me nor anyone else . . . has limitless amounts of time . . . for anything.
Your next breathe is not guaranteed; neither is mine; neither is anyone else's.
And as gently as I can be to everyone (but especially to you and especially to me), marrying someone does not guarantee that person will be around for as long as we want or even hope. Death, regardless of why, happens.
A person can remarry, and even though they expect to have many years with their new spouse, there's absolutely nothing that can solidify and guarantee such a beautiful expectation. Unless the couple both die at the same time, one of them IS going to pre-decease the other. It could be a matter of many years. But it could also happen within days or weeks of the marriage; in fact such things have happened . . . and more often than people want to believe.
I personally would much rather spend my time living in the very day that I'm breathing. I don't want to be living my entire life based on a futuristic goal that I may or may not have the pleasure of achieving.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/21/2008 3:23:59 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
Again I disagree with you. If a man is intentional about finding a wife why would he be filling his life with other women who he will have to cut off once he finds his wife? I know that I wouldn't want to be hanging around a woman who I found attractive but who didn't see me that way. Why rub salt in the wound? Also why prolong the agony. If the two of you don't work, cut it off now.
First, because I think women offer far more value than just as a potential date. I really value the relationships I have with women whom I know I will never marry (some because they are already married).
Woman are incredible and they do offer far more value than as a date (otherwise we wouldn't marry them would we?). However, a single man should not be close friends with a married woman, and vice versa. It is almost adulterous. He is stealing from her husband time and attention that should be his. Why would she need to be talking closely with another man if she is married?
Flee even the appearance of evil (1 Thess 5:22)
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Second, while it is true that if I ever marry, the friendships that I have with other single women must change if they are to survive, they do not need to be "cut off". Spending time with them alone would be inappropriate after a marriage, but spending time as a couple would not. If any relationship was kept completely pure before I was married, there would be very little reason why my wife would not expect that the same would hold true after marriage. This is just one of the benefits of dating with real godly boundaries.
Purity is not an issue. As we are all Christians here I assume that everyone would date purely.
Your attention and time belong to your wife when you are married. Spending time with other women is just not right. Unless you and your wife are friends with another couple there is no need for you to have female friends once you're married.
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Last, My Sunday school class is composed almost entirely of married couples, out of about 70 people I am one of about three singles. Many of the friendships I have within that class our with women who are married (I am also good friends with their husbands). As a single father I have been greatly blessed by those friendships because there are times where as a man, I really could use the perspective of a mother who has gone through similar circumstances, their husbands usually see things exactly as I do so when I speak to them it is usually "speaking to the choir" and often they are the first to tell me that I need to speak with their wife; this has been especially true as I was raising my daughter.
Time for some definition. In the situations you described you are a friend of the couple. Also the relationships you are relating I define as acquaintences. You're not hanging out with these women. They aren't over at your house. You're just talking at church. I talk to tons of people. Most of them are not friends. (Admittedly I have very high standards for who I'll call a friend)
I get input from bunches of ladies, some married some not, on issues with the Girl. This does not mean they are my friends.
quote:
Sometimes they have even taken my children out when I really felt that a womens voice would be much better than my own. Yes, there are clear boundaries around those friendships, but I am so thankful that God has allowed those friends to be a part of my life.
Again, they are doing the duty of a Christian sister, not a friend.
quote:
I am so glad that neither they nor their husbands felt the need to "cut me off" once I became single; the reality is that, in many ways, my friendships grew as they stepped up to meet the needs I had through a very difficult time.
I don't see why their husbands would cut you off anyway. Guys should have guy friends. Doesn't matter too much if your friends are married or single (although it's not a good idea for a married man to have all single friends as they can lead him astray).
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/21/2008 3:29:21 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
Now I suppose there are some couples where neither was intentional about finding a spouse and they became friends and ended up married. And if a man has a limitless amount of time to find his wife it might even work, But I wouldn't bet on it.
John, no one . . . not you, me nor anyone else . . . has limitless amounts of time . . . for anything.
Your next breathe is not guaranteed; neither is mine; neither is anyone else's.
Exactly. So why waste my time hanging around someone who has goals radically different than mine. If I am looking for a wife and she is looking for a friend (with no indication that she's interetest in going further) then we are going in different directions. Life is short.
quote:
I personally would much rather spend my time living in the very day that I'm breathing. I don't want to be living my entire life based on a futuristic goal that I may or may not have the pleasure of achieving.
Again exactly. We need to be working towards our goals and enjoying the trip. Since I am looking to remarry, hanging around someone who wants to be "just friends" would be like being parked on the on ramp of the freeway. The scenery never changes and I'm making no progress towards my goals.
(I am not the sort to drift through life with no plan whatsoever)
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/21/2008 3:33:59 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jlp1
quote:
That was a good read. Note the circumstance she most often uses. It's a guy who wants to get to know the girl. Not an established friend. By the time a guy becomes a close friend he's normally already blown his chances as she stops looking at him as a potential husband and starts looking at him as a friend.
Unless she is interested in him and waiting for him to make a move.
But if she never shows that she is interested then he just looks for someone who is.
And how does he know she's interested? He asks her out and she says yes. How does he know she's not interested? She say something along the lines of "I just want to be friends".
Both of these things happne long beofre he becomes a close friend of hers. By the time he's become a close friend he's likely already been rejected as a suitor. (He asked, she refused)
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/21/2008 3:56:21 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
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john_o are you saying that from your single man's perspective who is focused on getting married that a female friend serves no use? do you spurn potential friendships with males as well?
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/21/2008 4:00:38 PM
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pedro-
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I agree with John on most of his points (I didn't agree on the woman giving the man a "timeline" to begin dating, etc).
There have been lots of good points/ideas in this thread so I won't even try to address them all. I'll just give my opinion on some of them.
Women do like a man with a backbone (as various female posters have stated here), they like a challenge, but at the same time they want a Christian who also happens to be a gentleman. I also believe that it is the man's role to do the "chasing", at least at first. I think that if the girl is interested, she will accept when he asks her out for a date. Of course, that is if she knows him at least a little bit. I do not think he has to be "best" or even "great" friends with her or know her that well to start dating (that's what dates are for, after all).
Part of the problem lies in our (men's) ability to determine whether or not the girl is interested in us. She gives off signals (not returning phone calls, not accepting dates -or not counter-offering with another date if she's truly unable to make a date-, not laughing at your corny jokes, etc) but our ego sometimes gets in the way and we keep trying to chase. We end up with our hearts "broken" and blame the girls for the whole thing, when she really made it clear from the get-go that she wasn't interested. Then, since a couple of girls weren't interested in us, we buy into what the media tells us to do. We talk about "puppy dogs and ice cream", buy her lots of flowers/chocolates, give her a ton of compliments, etc. In the beginning they might think it's sweet, but it can make them realize that the guy is coming on too strong, ("why is he complimenting me so much? he doesn't even know me!", etc) or that he's "wimpy" ("why is he pouring out all of this feelings like that? I've only known him for a week!", etc).
It's not anyone's fault, either. Even if I play my cards right, I might be a good catch in a girl's eyes, but it doesn't mean another girl will think/say the same. As men, we need to "man up", and move on. There are plenty Christian women out there, so keep praying! God will provide. =)
edit: I guess I should have read the entire thread before posting. I apologize in advance if my post offends anyone :/
< Message edited by pedro- -- 5/21/2008 4:12:16 PM >
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/21/2008 4:08:29 PM
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Focusing
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Pedro, I think you got it right ...
quote:
It's not anyone's fault
Some things work for some people and not others. We need to be flexible in the world of dating. Expressing our opinions can be beneficial ... and we can learn from others. There are many approaches to dating.
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There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/21/2008 4:22:26 PM
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pedro-
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
Some things work for some people and not others. We need to be flexible in the world of dating. Expressing our opinions can be beneficial ... and we can learn from others. There are many approaches to dating.
I agree with you on that. :-)
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/21/2008 5:01:10 PM
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John_O
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great post Pedro!
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Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/21/2008 5:06:48 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil
john_o are you saying that from your single man's perspective who is focused on getting married that a female friend serves no use? do you spurn potential friendships with males as well?
No. At least not exactly. I have very limited time in my life (as you might understand) I don't normally have enough time to do things with my guy friends. So since I am looking for a wife, spending a great deal of time with a woman who will never be my wife is counterproductive. I could be using that time more wisely. (Of course there is small caveat. I will talk to people after the Girl goes to bed but since I can't go out and meet people during that time my options are somewhat limited)
I welcome friendships with men. I just don't have much time to work on them. (I've not even had the boat in the water yet!)
Second caveat. On line has an entirely different dynamic. I talk to everyone on-line.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/21/2008 5:16:22 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
John, I do believe this thread has become your most recent grounds for what you consider "date worthy" aka "potential wife" material. (btw, I think most of us got this months ago ...)
I'm totally missing the connection here. This has nothing to do with who I consider date worthy or potential wife. In fact this has nothing to do with me. We are discussing the "friends first" approach (and why I don't think it works IRL.)
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Let's get real here ... can others not have other opinions?
I never said they couldn't.
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Do you think it's quite possible that other people view dating as more than a means to an end
It's possible but I don't understand that viewpoint at all. Why spend the time and money if she's not at least potentially going to be in your life forever? Go hang out with a bunch of people instead.
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(if I don't consider you someone I desire to marry ... you're outta here ... I'm cutting you off ... no chance you can be my friend).
I never said that last part. But the understanding has got to be that when I marry I will greatly curtail any friendships I have with women (unless of course they are, or become my wife's friends).
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Perhaps other people think differently than you do. Why is that such a problem for you? Why do you have such a driving desire to point out that everyone else is wrong based upon your views?
It's just the burden of always being right. (Ouch. Ouch. I was joking. You know I was joking. She knows I was joking too).
The OH demands that I point out that I make mistakes and am wrong all the time
Or perhaps its the feeling that people are ignoring what I am saying and continuing on in their merry little "friends first" world and not realizing how most men view those words.
quote:
Snarky attitude intentional. 
And well done too if I may say so!
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/21/2008 5:51:49 PM
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Focusing
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Quite frankly John, if I went out on a date with a man who was only out with me and sizing me up as wife and mother of his children material, I would take the quickest route possible away from him.
Believe me, we all understand what you are saying. You have made yourself quite clear. As a matter of fact, I think you are ready to post over in the remarriage after divorce thread.
Just because people aren't swooping in and agreeing with you doesn't mean we aren't getting your opinion. It might be because we don't agree with it.
It's your life to do as you choose, and you have the right to your opinion.
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the understanding has got to be that when I marry I will greatly curtail any friendships I have with women
Tell this to your date. We get it. Not everyone agrees with your philosophy, myself included.
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It's just the burden of always being right.
You are very predictible. (that's not necessarily a good thing)
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perhaps its the feeling that people are ignoring what I am saying and continuing on in their merry little "friends first" world and not realizing how most men view those words
"continuing on in our merry little world" ... wow that's a put down if I ever heard one.
The thing is, John, you are not most men. You are you. That is your opinion. And I think it's great that you are sharing your opinion. But for us to run in here, read that JohnO said this, he is speaking on behalf of "most men" and we should all just accept that as a fact of life is ridiculous.
And might I also point out that it isn't just women who have the friends first opinion ...
I say being friends first works well. For me. For other people I know. I'm not saying everyone who is a friend and of the opposite gender is dating material, but it does happen. If you don't agree with that approach and it doesn't suit your life, that's fine. But it is completely unnecessary to point out the supposed error of my way. You are free to disagree with me. But by taking everyone's posts apart sentence by sentence and pointing out why you disagree with what we are all saying and point out that your reasoning is the "correct way", is, in my own opinion, telling us that you don't respect our opinions. It's very offensive.
This is just my opinion, but when I encounter someone who must debate every little thing I say, it's irritating.
_____________________________
There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/21/2008 9:20:13 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
quote:
ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil
john_o are you saying that from your single man's perspective who is focused on getting married that a female friend serves no use? do you spurn potential friendships with males as well?
No. At least not exactly. I have very limited time in my life (as you might understand) I don't normally have enough time to do things with my guy friends. So since I am looking for a wife, spending a great deal of time with a woman who will never be my wife is counterproductive. I could be using that time more wisely. (Of course there is small caveat. I will talk to people after the Girl goes to bed but since I can't go out and meet people during that time my options are somewhat limited)
I welcome friendships with men. I just don't have much time to work on them. (I've not even had the boat in the water yet!)
Second caveat. On line has an entirely different dynamic. I talk to everyone on-line.
i understand. i didn't think you were saying that necessarily. i think there are various circumstances such as being a single parent or caretaker of a family member that would cut into time to try to foster friendships. i think it all depends on one's endgame goal.
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RE: Today's Christian men...wimpy? - 5/21/2008 10:38:45 PM
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devinevessel
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
I've heard some Christian ladies make statements that are somewhat akin to this. It seems odd considering that our society seems to push men to be so much more sensative than in the past.
Can anyone shine some light on why some Christian women think this way?
(Perhaps this works better in the She said forum or relationships but I'm curious to hear from guys too.)
Because many Christian men are wimpy. We've been so ingrained to be gentle and accepting that most men have lost their backbone. Jesus was very gentle when he needed to be, but he could whup up on people when He needed to also.
So many men (Christian and lost) have bought into the kinder/gentler story. Then they whine because the women won't go out with them but go out with "bad boys" instead. Well most bad boys have a backbone. Women don't want to marry women, they want to marry men. Unfortunately many males never learn how to be men. They either get stuck as boys or become feminized pseudo men instead.
Note that it's posisbel to be kind, polite, gentle etc and still be a man. Jesus was so we can be too. But far too many pick up all teh soft traits and lay down the hard traits. We have to be strong, steadfast, faithful, hard working, bold etc while still being gentle kind etc.
We need to speak up against the things that are wrong (Abortion and homosexuality for example) without worrying about offending the people in those lifestyles. Those people need to be offended. How else will they open their eyes to see the truth?
The church in general has made it entirely too easy for people to go to hell these days. 'Well we wouldn't want to impose our values on them." Hogwash. They either accept our (biblical) values or they go to hell. Why do so many remain silent?
(Sorry. Major soapbox issue for me)
Great post, John. There is a balance in being strong but soft. I feel like with some men it is on the extreme opposite ends.
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