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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/22/2008 10:51:27 PM
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StephK
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History. Willow Creek was one of the main drivers in the Seeker Sensitive movement. They are now going towards the Emergent Church Movement.
< Message edited by StephK -- 5/22/2008 11:01:54 PM >
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/22/2008 10:53:14 PM
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phosadaud
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So?
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~Kristin~
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/22/2008 10:59:00 PM
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StephK
Posts: 2237
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From: Southwest Louisiana
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I added a link to my post above.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/23/2008 1:41:12 AM
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prophet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
And you know that how? What proof do you have to make that accusation?
My church is constantly seeking God's will and if that means changing direction, we do it. Society is not static. Why should the church be? We shouldn't do something just because it's the way we've always done it, and holding onto our "sacred cows".
Do sacred cows include scripture?
Shalom
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/23/2008 8:58:01 AM
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DarleneSchreiber
Posts: 169
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
And you know that how? What proof do you have to make that accusation?
My church is constantly seeking God's will and if that means changing direction, we do it. Society is not static. Why should the church be? We shouldn't do something just because it's the way we've always done it, and holding onto our "sacred cows".
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever." (Hebrews 13:8) How terribly static!
How many times were the Children of Israel taken captive, freed, taken captive again, freed again...etc, ad nauseum? I'd have to list almost the entire Old Testament to back that up.
How many times did God command His people to be holy? What does the word holy mean anyway? According to Vines dictionary, it means (page 225in my copy) "santification; a separation to God." Santification: (page 317) "...the separation of the believer from evil things and ways."
Ever read Leviticus? It's all about being holy. Some people have defined being holy as being peculiar. As God's Church, we are to be different from the world...so different, that we stand out! Maybe even look a little odd or peculiar!
Why does Leviticus seem so strange to us? It wouldn't have been strange to the Israelites because God was commanding them to avoid, completely, the practices of the idolotrous nations they were encountering on the way to their promised land. And what happened to those nations? Any of them around today???
Now, what, of all that, would lead a Christian to believe we should adapt the Church, the earthly body of Christ, to the unbelieving world? But that is exactly what the Emerging Church is doing today! Based on what God has to say in the Bible about merging with the world, what do you think will ultimately happen to the Emerging Church???
It has nothing to do with adapting to, say, keep up with technology. For instance, a good website can lead people to a good church. But it has everything to do with intent. Are we trying to fit in? Is that our motive? If it is, give me a Biblical example of when someone successfully "fit in".
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/23/2008 10:03:50 AM
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doinkdom
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If I have a problem with WC, then I will go directly to the source and not some biased interview or story of the week from a journalist bent on finding "something" to sensationalize.
This is not an overnight thing for WC. It's been going on for quite some time (couple of years I think), but it's just now making headlines for the rest of us to use as target practice for spiritual hand grenades.
I understand caution being used based on a history, but to assume that a man, much less a church can't change...well, that's totally contradicting the Gospel, which is all about change and transformation.
I think I will pray for their church, that they will indeed follow through with where the spirit is leading them.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/23/2008 12:30:41 PM
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colliefan
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Maturing believers will reach out to the unbelievers in their sphere of influence and lead them to Christ. The purpose of the church is for the equiping of the saints to do the work of the church. It isn't the job of the pastor to "get people saved."
How silly would it be for an NFL coach to battle the opposing coach in a game. Like a head coach, his job is to do what is needed to see that his team is ready for the game.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/23/2008 12:34:13 PM
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crankius
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To understand WC's shift a little better, you should read up on Reveal.
quote:
Written by Greg L. Hawkins and Cally Parkinson , with editorial contributions from Eric Arnson , this book provides a strong overview of REVEAL. Greg Hawkins shares a dilemma he’s wrestled with throughout his 11 years as an executive pastor: Can we really know if our church is making a difference in the ongoing spiritual growth of our people? This pivotal question sets up the rest of the book and REVEAL as a whole.
Tracking, analyzing and applying the data from the first six test churches (in addition to Willow Creek), REVEAL helps you understand what has been discovered through the research thus far. In addition, you’ll gain a strong understanding of the science involved in identifying how individuals growing spiritually.
Link to video which is very worth watching if you want to understand--
Greg Hawkins shares the heart behind REVEAL
Link to Key Findings
quote:
The research showed some increase in spiritual behaviors as participation in church activites inceases, but very little correlation between low-medium-high levels of participation and increasing "love for God, love for people."
quote:
We found that those who were the most active in the church did not necessarily report higher levels of spiritual attitudes (“love for God and others”) and spiritual behaviors (evangelism, tithing, etc.) than those who were less active.
quote:
In addition to the four Spiritual Continuum segments, we found a large group of people who were "stalled" in their spiritual growth, predominantly in the middle stages of spiritual development. Another significant group emerged out of the later stages of spiritual development who were mature Christ-followers, but "dissatisfied" with their church. These two groups made up 26 percent of our total sample.
It's quite interesting to look at. I don't really agree with their interpretations of their findings and possible solutions, but I think the entire thing is very interesting to study.
< Message edited by crankius -- 5/23/2008 12:40:41 PM >
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/23/2008 2:26:16 PM
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DarleneSchreiber
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
If it is, give me a Biblical example
How about the whole New Testemant???? Talk about change, yikes. 
Such as? I'm really interested, don't get me wrong. I want to know.
As far as I've seen in the New Testament, the only things Jesus set about changing was all the stuff the Pharisees, Saducees, scribes and priests had added to the law. Jesus kept re-directing them to the law of Moses. He even said, of Himself, that He came to fulfill law and prophecy, not to change it.
Even Paul had to correct and admonish early Christians for trying to mix their newfound Christian beliefs with those of the world around them.
There is simply no way around this, I'm afraid. As Christ-followers, we are to be separate and distinct from the world. We cannot merge Truth and un-Truth...they DO NOT mix. It's not comfortable and it requires personal accountability and that's tough and we don't like it. It's more than we can humanly do which is why our only hope is to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If we don't have the Holy Spirit abiding within us, we'll have no problem mixing it up with the world! However, if we do have Him, we'll never find peace with one foot in the world. Matthew 7:13...it's not easy! And true Christians, that preach the Truth, will be hated by the world. John 15:18-19 and John 17:14. So when you see a church that is popular and very attractive to the world, give it a very close, scrutinizing look...and listen to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. There are a few exceptions but more often than not, there's a good chance that church is not teaching the Truth. Matthew 7:21-23
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/23/2008 3:00:12 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1428
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
A disciple making church is VERY different from a membership making chucrh.
One exhibits spiritual growth while the other numbers growth.
One takes blood, sweat and tears while the other methodolgies of psych marketing
One is called Philadelphia while the other, laodecia
And, what's the result of a church that does a great job at "disciple making"???
You'll likely get better than average "growth" in membership numbers.
Just because you have a huge church....doesn't necessarily mean it's a "membership making" church, as opposed to a "disciplemaking" church.....
quote:
We shouldn't do something just because it's the way we've always done it, and holding onto our "sacred cows".
AMEN! That's one of the reasons I LOVE our church....from talking with our dedicated staff members, we have learned that at our church "just because we've always done it that way", is NOT a legitimate, justified reason to do ANYTHING.
With regards to WillowCreek.....can't really have an opinion one way or another.....have never been there for church, have never heard the pastor give a sermon....and I have only heard the name "WillowCreek" from others....I know basic "facts" about the church (size of the church, the pastor's name, that it's in Chicago area, etc..etc...)....but, that doesn't tell me anything....just might have to watch a church service of theirs on the Internet and see for myself.....
< Message edited by kernsfamily -- 5/23/2008 3:18:32 PM >
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/23/2008 3:42:49 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 11107
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DarleneSchreiber
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
And you know that how? What proof do you have to make that accusation?
My church is constantly seeking God's will and if that means changing direction, we do it. Society is not static. Why should the church be? We shouldn't do something just because it's the way we've always done it, and holding onto our "sacred cows".
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever." (Hebrews 13:8) How terribly static!
How many times were the Children of Israel taken captive, freed, taken captive again, freed again...etc, ad nauseum? I'd have to list almost the entire Old Testament to back that up.
How many times did God command His people to be holy? What does the word holy mean anyway? According to Vines dictionary, it means (page 225in my copy) "santification; a separation to God." Santification: (page 317) "...the separation of the believer from evil things and ways."
Ever read Leviticus? It's all about being holy. Some people have defined being holy as being peculiar. As God's Church, we are to be different from the world...so different, that we stand out! Maybe even look a little odd or peculiar!
Why does Leviticus seem so strange to us? It wouldn't have been strange to the Israelites because God was commanding them to avoid, completely, the practices of the idolotrous nations they were encountering on the way to their promised land. And what happened to those nations? Any of them around today???
Now, what, of all that, would lead a Christian to believe we should adapt the Church, the earthly body of Christ, to the unbelieving world? But that is exactly what the Emerging Church is doing today! Based on what God has to say in the Bible about merging with the world, what do you think will ultimately happen to the Emerging Church???
It has nothing to do with adapting to, say, keep up with technology. For instance, a good website can lead people to a good church. But it has everything to do with intent. Are we trying to fit in? Is that our motive? If it is, give me a Biblical example of when someone successfully "fit in".
Jesus is not the style of our worship. Jesus is not the method we use to reach the lost (a tent meeting vs. door to door evangelism vs. small group activities vs.). Jesus is not how we organize the body.
This is where sacred cows come into play. We turn things into biblical commands that are not biblical (for instance, what style of music to sing on Sunday morning). We make our personal preferences into Scriptural mandates (should the sermon include an altar call). We decide that how our church does things to reach our community is how every church in every nation should do things (a crusade vs. tracts). We think that this person should evangelize but not this person (which is funny because I don't see one example in Scripture of a single person or position who isn't to try and reach the lost).
We're not talking about sin here (thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not steal, etc). We're talking about style, focus and organization.
And I really, really, really abhor people accusing others of "becoming like the world" because it has become an empty way of vilifying folks without having to come up with actual Scriptures to show what sin the person/group are committing (which is what becoming like the world is talking about).
And if God wants us to look different, why don't we all get mohawks and die our hair green?
Or maybe that's not what that verse is talking about. 
And by the way, show me some concrete examples of the sins you think Willowcreek is committing and therefore becoming "like the world".
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Classified Ads: "Government employer looking for candidates. Criminal background required."
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/23/2008 3:46:15 PM
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StephK
Posts: 2237
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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The issue isn't about holding onto sacred cows or not. Willow Creek was one of main innovators of the Church Growth Movement based on running a church more like a corporation rather than a church. They went out of their way to preach the gospel lite and found out that it really didn't pay off like they thought it would. They have a bunch of baby christians despite all the programs that are provided. Activity does not equal discipling. It's often just busyness. IOW, it's wood, hay and stubble in the big picture. This again isn't about large churches but the methods this particular church used to grow and spread to churches all over the world. The truth is that the CGM did not feed the sheep. The things that spurred the most spiritual growth from their own study was *gasp* good old bible study and prayer and other spiritual disciplines done on their own outside of church.
http://ceruleansanctum.com/2007/10/church-growth-movement-fall-down-and-go-boom.html
< Message edited by StephK -- 5/23/2008 4:04:48 PM >
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/23/2008 4:00:28 PM
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DarleneSchreiber
Posts: 169
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Told ya...Truth ain't popular!
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/23/2008 4:04:24 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 11107
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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Sorry, but some of these posts make me laugh because it's, well, funny.
We have a lady in my church who gripes every single week about the "new age" (ie - Contemporary Christian) music we sing during worship. Even those "old hymns" are apparently sung in a "new age" way. We hold a dramatic production and someone else gripes about where is the bible study and such because apparently the only thing Christians are EVER supposed to do is study the bible and nothing else. It doesn't matter that we have all kinds of bible studies and such going on all week long and on Sundays. Others throw up their hands and gripe because our church has a softball team and what does that have to do with God? Others gripe because of people like me who is paid (gasp!) by the church to help manage and such the finances which must mean we operate like a business not a church because bookkeepers aren't in the NT. Which is funny because my job has a direct impact on the ability of the Body in my church to reach the lost and build up disciples.
Folks, a good church is a balanced church. It's not one extreme or the other. And fortunately, most churches aren't like what some of you seem to be accusing Willowcreek of. I'm seriously in awe that some of you think apparently no one in Willowcreek ever cracked their Bibles and prayed. That shows me one of two things: You have either never been there and are just grasping the latest "Christian" gossip mongers on the net who think anyone not like their church is of the devil (certain key phrases keep coming up over and over which are usually from these folks which is one of the reasons I think some of that is going on here). OR, you think that churches can only do one thing so if they have activities, they can't have Biblestudies.
What we see with Willowcreek is a church that is doing what ALL churches should be doing: constantly seeking the Holy Spirit's wisdom and when we swing too far one way, we follow the Spirit's guidance and come back to a more central, balanced position. We when have grown to a certain place, we need to seek what the next step God wants us to take is.
I am heavily involved in my music ministry at my church. We saw that worship needed help. Those of us in leadership came together and started talking, sharing, praying and seeking the Lord's will in what we needed to do to take us to the next level in the heart of worship. It isn't that we were being bad and the worship was terrible and we were wrong. It was that God was stirring within our hearts that it was time to take the next step in our worship. Some things we needed to change. They weren't working. Some things God wanted us to step out in faith on. Some things we weren't ready for 5 years ago, but we were ready for now.
That's not a bad thing. It's a good thing.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Classified Ads: "Government employer looking for candidates. Criminal background required."
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/23/2008 4:11:55 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4493
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Link to video which is very worth watching if you want to understand--
Greg Hawkins shares the heart behind REVEAL
Have any of you watched the video? I'm interested in your reactions.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/23/2008 4:30:03 PM
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StephK
Posts: 2237
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Link to video which is very worth watching if you want to understand--
Greg Hawkins shares the heart behind REVEAL
Have any of you watched the video? I'm interested in your reactions.
I think the main thing that popped out for me is the focus on "doing" church and not how to be the church. A new program isn't the answer. It's so simple but why can't those in leadership get it? People are burnt out with activity. Those who are mature are leaving because Churchianity isn't ever going to fill their souls.
< Message edited by StephK -- 5/23/2008 4:44:52 PM >
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/23/2008 4:40:18 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4319
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Link to video which is very worth watching if you want to understand--
Greg Hawkins shares the heart behind REVEAL
Have any of you watched the video? I'm interested in your reactions.
The transparency in the beginning is awesome for church leaders to hear.
His explanation was good about church programs/activities as far as what they are.
I liked the part about explorers, those who love Jesus, those who are close to Christ, centered on relationship with Christ and those who are stalled in their relationship.
I think it's great they're doing something about it or at least giving a lot of thought to how to change it.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/23/2008 4:43:46 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4319
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As far as the terminology of "doing" church...well, that's how the lost world looks at us. Unbelievers think of Sunday mornings, Sunday School and a particular form to a church. A set schedule. A per-formed way of doing things.
As Christians, we know that the move from the mindset of doing church to being church is a very short one and it happens as soon as you are a member of a body that is growing together.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/23/2008 4:44:58 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4319
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Link to video which is very worth watching if you want to understand--
Greg Hawkins shares the heart behind REVEAL
Have any of you watched the video? I'm interested in your reactions.
I think the main thing that popped out for me is the focus on "doing" church and not how to be the church. A new program isn't the answer. It's so simple but why can't those in leadership get it? People are burnt out with activity. Those who are mature are leaving because Churchianity isn't ever going to fill their souls.
which is exactly what he was asking you to share with them
your thoughts, your understanding of the world today for Christians
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/23/2008 5:22:36 PM
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crankius
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I watched his video again, because it has been a long time since I watched it. I wrote down my thoughts while watching it—I’ll share my crazy reactions with you. It’ll be just like you were sitting here next to me! Exciting! Use your imagination on voice inflection…
1. He’s looking at the number of seats filled. They are looking completely at the wrong things—numbers mean nothing.
2. “are we spending those folks money in the right way?...would they feel great about how we are investing their resources?” I think I understand the good intent of his questions, but they offend me—these are God’s resources—we are not investing in our church, like consumers, and expecting a good product in return. We are giving as good stewards in obedience what God already owns. Rather than asking if the people feel great about their spending, he should be asking if the Lord is pleased with their stewardship.
3. “We’ve had a great talk on the stage…”--???? Is this what church is like there? This is not the picture of a gathering of believers. A "good talk" is had on Oprah—not in church.
4. He hasn’t met with God?????? I don’t go to church to meet with God and have an experience—that is not the purpose of church.
5. Polling the people to get direction on what a Biblically healthy church looks and acts like? They have to poll to get feedback—this is a business model, focusing on differentiated marketing.
6. A disciple—their way to create disciples is to have programs and stuff for people to attend. God’s Word does not define this as a disciple.
7. False understanding that plugging people into church stuff is what makes a disciple. Participation, to them, produces maturity.
8. This is why numbers matter to them!
9. If they see people participating, they assume they are growing disciples. Anyone who has worked in churches knows that participation does not at all mean people are disciples or are even becoming disciples.
10. So they conclude: increasing levels of participation does not predict maturity. Duh!
11. All the different people in the “continuum” have different needs—(again, differentiated marketing study?)
12. They find that church activities helped the lowest denominator, but left the mature folks feeling greatly disappointed with church. Yup!
13. “We need to ask different questions:
Are the things we’re doing helping people grow in their intimacy with Christ?
…We need to ask the participants in order to know if what we are doing is working.”
Uh…how about Biblical study?
This is a consumer driven church model. The approach, their language, their focus—it’s treating the church as a worldly corporation instead of as a Biblical functioning Body of Christ with scripture as the guidebook. It assumes the polling will give them the scripturally correct methods.
I just don’t see at all where they are looking to Scripture for instructions on the Body of Christ and their roles as leadership.
I think they could benefit from a visit with 9Marks. While I don’t agree with everything 9Marks states, I find their focus to be extremely Biblical.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/23/2008 5:32:26 PM
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StephK
Posts: 2237
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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Seeing those points written down the problem is very obvious. God is not who they are looking to for the answers. Another program based on their findings from the members won't work either.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/23/2008 10:16:08 PM
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DarleneSchreiber
Posts: 169
Joined: 5/22/2008
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Sounds like society in general today...we ignore the rule of law, we deny absolute truth exists, we deny there is an actual right and wrong and focus on rights, feelings and preferences. It wasn't okay to kill unborn babies 100 years ago but now we know more, are more enlightened, have more scientific "evidence", whatever. Therefore, it's okay to take that dusty, out-dated old standard, throw it out the window and let the majority rule. Where in the Bible is it written that majority rule=right?
(Hence someone should be dull enough to think it, I'll state the obvious...this was not a diatribe on abortion! You can apply it to anything...marriage, education, pornography, integrity, the speed limit, whatever you want.)
It's called Postmodernism.
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RE: Willow Creek's Huge Shift - 5/23/2008 11:04:06 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 3002
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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quote:
What we see with Willowcreek is a church that is doing what ALL churches should be doing: constantly seeking the Holy Spirit's wisdom and when we swing too far one way, we follow the Spirit's guidance and come back to a more central, balanced position. We when have grown to a certain place, we need to seek what the next step God wants us to take is.
Nothing in the video mentioned seeking the HS guidance in their study. No Scriptures were given as the reason for their structure. Emphasis was placed on meeting felt needs. Nothing was mentioned about the numbers who made a profession of faith and moved all through the continum. Jesus said that wide is the way to destruction and the gate is narrow and few find it,
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