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RE: It Takes Far More Faith to be an Atheist!

 
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RE: It Takes Far More Faith to be an Atheist! - 6/5/2008 8:28:37 AM   
galadriel2

 

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After skimming a few of the posts on this thread - I think it is important to have our definitions right. Faith isn't counting the odds and the odds stack up favorably to there being a God; therefore, I believe. In the NT belief is really something that is pitted against anything that is thought or done that is independent of God in Christ. Only believers in Christ possess faith, in other words, according to the Bible. You can see this teaching really well in Hab. 2:4; and in the 3rd chapter of Philippians.

God bless all abundantly,
Galadriel2

< Message edited by galadriel2 -- 6/5/2008 8:35:17 AM >
Post #: 51
RE: It Takes Far More Faith to be an Atheist! - 6/5/2008 10:26:31 AM   
hellohellohi


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That's cool. (
quote:

No, I don't feel the death penalty to be justifiable... The same way I convey anything else; discussion.
)

Also, I've looked over your other posts more. I definitely have a lot of respect for you. Like I implied in the other thread, I am just paranoid that people are getting things wrong (intentionally) even when appearances suggest otherwise. I trust you are not too offended by my strange belligerence.
Post #: 52
RE: It Takes Far More Faith to be an Atheist! - 6/5/2008 11:27:20 PM   
hellohellohi


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quote:

In the NT belief is really something that is pitted against anything that is thought or done that is independent of God in Christ. Only believers in Christ possess faith,


I second that galadriel,

thanks for that.

I think it's facetious to say atheists possess more faith (from a Christian's perspective -- If an atheist wanted to claim such I would just have to hear what they mean I guess.)

I'm not the first to say it, but I agree with the idea that faith is the dialectical opposite of sin.
Post #: 53
RE: It Takes Far More Faith to be an Atheist! - 6/7/2008 3:32:31 PM   
Jhud


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quote:

If you're going to take it that far, why not take it one step further? Take anything that humans, animals, planets, etc... produce and label that as the reason the universe exists.

Hamburgers not only required all of the things required for life, not only all of the things required for animal life, and intelligent life, it also required that we reach a stage of technology capable of producing them. Truly hamburgers must be the end-game of [enter chosen deity]'s plan. [Same chosen deity] simply wanted a nice, juicy burger.

True, a hamburger in and of itself is far less complex than a human, but it required much more complexity to come into being than any individual human did. It required billions of humans, living and dying, for years untold toiling in a hundred different disciplines in order to come into being. An item requiring such immense complexity is surely more worth of the title of 'chosen' than any mere human.


Well, as a hamburger is a derivative of a living creature, then it would follow that as much as the universe was designed for life, then that might be life that could be consumed. Indeed, I don’t know anyone who would claim a hamburger could arise from unguided mechanisms much less a living cell – though obviously some make better hamburgers than others.

quote:

Don't exactly have the ability to look at my own cells, off hand. Even with a microscope, I really wouldn't be able to see information, I'd have to go much further than that to find any. Heck, even looking directly at a picture of a strand of DNA, without knowing anything about it I'd just think I was looking at a nice picture.
Good to know that [Chosen deity] decided to reserve 'proof' of [Chosen Deity]'s existence for peoples of sufficiently advanced technology and understanding to be able to discern it. Not exactly a flaming sign in the sky, to my mind.


But you do have the ability to understand how your cells function, which is a fairly amazing thing in and of itself; so as much as you have that knowledge you are responsible for factoring into your choices about your beliefs.

Though interestingly, the understanding that life is designed is apparent on any number of levels, even apart from our scientific knowledge, which explains why humans have concluded that life was designed as long as they have been able to form conclusions and record them.

quote:

And again, "no natural explanation," is a bit misleading. Even "no known natural explanation," would be a bit misleading. "No definitive explanation," would fit the bill. As discussed elsewhere, there are plausible scenarios for the development of life currently being researched. They may not pan out, and humanity may never discover how to create organic life from scratch, but to simply rule it out is a bit hasty.

Actually, we h are at the point where we can do a pretty decent job of designing an organism; but it always requires the best of our technology.

quote:

Except that Pascal's famous wager only works if you're creating an isolated universe in which the only options are Jehovah, no Jehovah.
This, of course, is a completely skewed way of thinking. To truly make Pascal's wager, we have to take into account not only Jehovah, but all gods. This doesn't simply include all gods, currently worshiped, or all gods ever worshiped, but all possible gods.
So whereas Pascal originally proposed a 50/50 probability to the Jehovah/no Jehovah, if we're going to split the Jehovah category it now looks a bit different. We now have All possible gods/ No god as our set of possibles.
To further confuse things, there are a conceivably infinite set of gods that demand exclusive worship, and will send you to [chosen negative afterlife] simply for believing in any god but them. On top of that, we have gods that prefer that you be a good person, baring any faith. Gods that favor the agnostic, or favor the atheist. Gods that will only send you to heaven if you like treacle pudding, or if you always put the toilet seat down. Etc... Etc... Etc...
In the end, we have a ridiculous number of ways to be sent to hell, and one (or more) of any confusing numbers of ways to be sent to heaven. Doesn't exactly play out in the way Pascal originally stated. It's a bad argument, and anyone convinced by it hasn't really evaluated it.


Actually, many people misunderstand Pascal’s wager. He wasn’t arguing that we should believe because it was dangerous not to do so, which is typically how his argument is stated by simple skeptics and Christians who aren’t familiar with their own philosophical heritage, but rather Pascal was ever arguing that faith in God is ultimately reasonable, but our passions prevent us from acquiring it. Pascals wager puts us in the position of forming the right belief for the right reasons; it gives us a reason to investigate with seriousness, not the sophistry that is so typical of the skeptic, who dismisses out of hand the possibility of the existence of God.

I also thinks it really not a matter of choosing between ‘gods’; most gods can be dismissed for very basic and obvious reasons, and have been by most of humanity for the better part of a couple of millennia. Not all can of course, and we should seriously consider those.

quote:

What in materialism is contradictory. How can the statement "The physical is all that exists," even contradict itself? It's a single statement about a single thing. (Or, a single everything, to be more specific.)
Even if the statement is some day proven false, it remains internally consistent.
It's akin to me saying, "All swans are white." Even if you show me a black swan, and the statement is proven wrong, it remains internally consistent.

Well, we know that the physical is not all that exists; ideas and beliefs and opinions aren’t physical yet almost everyone considers them to exist, even as materialists. And those are only a few things that render materialists inconsistent. Purpose, meaning, and morals would be additional though not exhaustive things.

quote:

I do believe that what I believe about the universe matters, but not in any ultimate way. I believe that, someday, I will die. I believe that, someday, the universe will die. I believe that this life is all we get, and that the only meaning that exists in it is that which we create for ourselves. I believe that, in the end, every action ever undertaken will turn to less than dust, all will be forgotten, and nothing that happened will have mattered.
That being said, I also believe that, if we're going to die, and none of what we do will matter in the end, we might as well give it the best shot we possibly can. This also means that my beliefs matter now, in the short term, and since the short term is (I believe) all we've got, we might as well use it well.


Actually, your conclusion doesn’t follow from your premise. There is no ‘best shot’ if everything is ultimately meaningless, because ‘best’ is a value judgment about one’s efforts – which don’t amount to anything at all by your own acknowledgement. At best your philosophy amount to “Let’s all agree to pretend that anything matters because the alternative is too frightening” – the problem is, not all of us can live with such pretense.

quote:

The only things that I do that go against church teaching are things that are very faith-specific. That being, I don't go to church, and I don't pray. Oh, I suppose I swear on rare occasion as well.
Other than that, nothing really. I avoid doing physical harm, lying, stealing, cheating, etc... etc... on simple principle. Even things that I see nothing morally wrong with, like drugs, gambling, sexuality, I don't generally engage in simply because I find them to be a waste of time.
Nothing has really changed since I was a Christian except the church/prayer thing. There was no reason to suddenly change the way I lived just because I'd dropped faith. Like I've said, it was an intellectual decision. I didn't drop Christianity because I was angry at God, or because I felt restricted. There was not inherent motivation to it other than that I came to see it as a pointless practice. I've come to be more accepting of many things since then that are banned not because they're harmful, but because the Bible labels them as wrong, but I don't engage in them simply because they hold no interest.


I am absolutely confident as a former agnostic that I wouldn’t experience the success I have as a spouse, father, friend, and citizen, were it not for my faith; and the people I admire most are all people of faith. In 40+ years of life I have never met an atheist’s life whom upon close inspection I can admire. Never.

_____________________________

Jack

“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
Post #: 54
RE: It Takes Far More Faith to be an Atheist! - 6/12/2008 4:40:32 PM   
galadriel2

 

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Thanks for the encouraging remark, hellohellohi

God bless you abundantly,
Galadriel2
Post #: 55
RE: It Takes Far More Faith to be an Atheist! - 6/13/2008 9:20:17 AM   
hellohellohi


Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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Hi JHud,
Sorry for picking on you, but I bet you don't mind too much. You can take it!


quote:

I am absolutely confident as a former agnostic that I wouldn’t experience the success I have ... were it not for my faith;


So, is a fair epithet for God, Mr. LuckDaddy? I think secularism prepares us for great success by worldly standards. Of course, the price we could conceivably pay is to be dead inside! Worldly success has nothing to do with Christianity and Christianity has nothing to do with worldly success I say. At the same time, I left out some of your quote because I do agree that it takes God to have proper relationships with people around us, spouse, neighbor, or even a country, but that doesn't mean these relationships will always represent worldly "successes." I was taking you out of context for the sake of provoking you, if helpful. Sorry!

quote:

and the people I admire most are all people of faith. In 40+ years of life I have never met an atheist’s life whom upon close inspection I can admire. Never.


I feel that sentiment as well, but I was intrigued for a long time by Albert Camus for that reason. Widely known atheist, led a very righteous life as far as a human is fit to judge (and I don't say I am) with the exception of probably being too popular with the ladies; also a ridiculously good writer. Check him out. Once you've done that, check out a book Albert Camus and the Minister which didn't come out until relatively recently.

Anyway, didn't Paul say in Romans that one can be circumsized in one's heart and lead a better life than one who is outwardly circumcized? Perhaps he is drawing an analogy from the Jewish world to the Christian Gentile one or perhaps he is just discussing the law as it pertains to Gentiles. I don't know.
Post #: 56
RE: It Takes Far More Faith to be an Atheist! - 6/13/2008 12:52:53 PM   
Real_Solitude


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well, as a hamburger is a derivative of a living creature, then it would follow that as much as the universe was designed for life, then that might be life that could be consumed. Indeed, I don’t know anyone who would claim a hamburger could arise from unguided mechanisms much less a living cell – though obviously some make better hamburgers than others.

I wasn't claiming that hamburgers arose unaided. I was just saying that if you're going to say that some deity created Space/time/matter and had it go through expansion, cooling, star formation, super-nova-ing so that higher elements can form, congealing into more stars and some planets, and finally arriving at a life-bearing planet after all that work specifically so that life could exist, why not take it one step further, and say that the things life produces are the reason for everything, not the life. Like I said, life as we know it requires all the stuff in our universe being the way it is in order to exist. The technologies and products that humanity has produced (like the hamburger), however, require all the stuff required for life, and then some. So if you're going to say that a deity created all this simply for life to be able to exist because there are X many requirements that had to be fulfilled in order for it to be here, I'm going to point out that our humble hamburger requires X+Y steps in order to be here, and so we might as well say that the universe exists in order for there to be hamburgers.

quote:

Though interestingly, the understanding that life is designed is apparent on any number of levels, even apart from our scientific knowledge, which explains why humans have concluded that life was designed as long as they have been able to form conclusions and record them.

Humans concluded a lot of things that were strange and (often) wrong. They've done this because we are a pattern-seeking people. Because of this, we tell all kinds of stories. Sometimes the stories are true, sometimes they're relevant, and sometimes they involve big people sitting on clouds hurling electricity as the explanation for lightning. Humans tend to imbue human qualities on anything they can get their grubby paws on. Trees dance, the moon has a man on it, and wolves are evil. We anthropomorphize everything else, why wouldn't we throw up an anthropomorphic explanation for the whole universe?

quote:

And again, "no natural explanation," is a bit misleading. Even "no known natural explanation," would be a bit misleading. "No definitive explanation," would fit the bill. As discussed elsewhere, there are plausible scenarios for the development of life currently being researched. They may not pan out, and humanity may never discover how to create organic life from scratch, but to simply rule it out is a bit hasty.

Actually, we h are at the point where we can do a pretty decent job of designing an organism; but it always requires the best of our technology.
We can do it by building up carbon/oxygen/nitrogen/hydrogen into cells and stuff? I did not know that. That's pretty cool.
But back to the point...
My wording didn't convey precisely what I meant. It should have read, "They may not pan out, and humanity may never discover how life could have arisen naturally from the available chemical, but to simply rule it out is a bit hasty."

quote:

Actually, many people misunderstand Pascal’s wager. He wasn’t arguing that we should believe because it was dangerous not to do so, which is typically how his argument is stated by simple skeptics and Christians who aren’t familiar with their own philosophical heritage, but rather Pascal was ever arguing that faith in God is ultimately reasonable, but our passions prevent us from acquiring it. Pascals wager puts us in the position of forming the right belief for the right reasons; it gives us a reason to investigate with seriousness, not the sophistry that is so typical of the skeptic, who dismisses out of hand the possibility of the existence of God.

I didn't believe the argument was about the danger of not believing, but about a cost/benefit analysis of belief/non-belief. Basically, "If we are to assign equaprobablity to Jehovah existing or not existing, you might as well believe because it's the more beneficial of the two options."
I was just pointing out that the argument is flawed by assuming Jehovah is the only option. I suppose I could also say that it's flawed in assuming equaprobability to the two options. (In the same manner that if I say, "Aliens might exist." we don't automatically assign a 50/50 probability to them existing/not existing, but weigh the involved factors as per the drake equation.)

quote:

I also thinks it really not a matter of choosing between ‘gods’; most gods can be dismissed for very basic and obvious reasons, and have been by most of humanity for the better part of a couple of millennia. Not all can of course, and we should seriously consider those.

I would disagree that most can be discarded out of hand. I would argue that only those that are self-contradictory, or those that purport to have a direct physical manifestation that causes an observable event (e.g. a physical Zeus that throws all lightning bolts can be discarded because there is no physical Zeus to be observed.) can be discarded. Any other that merely purports to explain things (E.g. A non-physical Zeus that is the cause of lightning bolts [even if by understood processes]) can not be dismissed. By simply tweaking a few characteristics of the old gods to make them non-physical we can have the whole of the old pantheons back in the mix.

quote:

Well, we know that the physical is not all that exists; ideas and beliefs and opinions aren’t physical yet almost everyone considers them to exist, even as materialists. And those are only a few things that render materialists inconsistent. Purpose, meaning, and morals would be additional though not exhaustive things.

I could argue that idea, beliefs, etc... are simply electro-chemical signals in the brain, and are therefore physical. Its also semi-relevant to say that conceptual things like idea or purpose don't 'actually' exist. That is, if I imagine a pink monkey, a pink monkey does not simply pop into being. Only the idea of the pink monkey exists, and that exists only in my mind, which in turn seems to reside in my brain.
I'm also not sure if you're using purpose in the function sense (a can opener's purpose is to open cans) or in the cosmic sense ("Everybody has purpose."). Either one, thought, I would say falls into the same category as ideas. Purpose only 'exists' where the human imbues purpose on things. This would, again, be something that exists in the mind/brain, and could have a physical explanation.

quote:

I do believe that what I believe about the universe matters, but not in any ultimate way. I believe that, someday, I will die. I believe that, someday, the universe will die. I believe that this life is all we get, and that the only meaning that exists in it is that which we create for ourselves. I believe that, in the end, every action ever undertaken will turn to less than dust, all will be forgotten, and nothing that happened will have mattered.
That being said, I also believe that, if we're going to die, and none of what we do will matter in the end, we might as well give it the best shot we possibly can. This also means that my beliefs matter now, in the short term, and since the short term is (I believe) all we've got, we might as well use it well.


quote:

Actually, your conclusion doesn’t follow from your premise. There is no ‘best shot’ if everything is ultimately meaningless, because ‘best’ is a value judgment about one’s efforts – which don’t amount to anything at all by your own acknowledgement. At best your philosophy amount to “Let’s all agree to pretend that anything matters because the alternative is too frightening” – the problem is, not all of us can live with such pretense.

Not really, it's more like, "Bugger if life has 'ultimate purpose' or not, you might as well enjoy it while you're here."
I say "Best shot" because living in what is traditionally seen as a 'good' manner (being nice to people, helping out, eating right, etc...) ends up creating the highest net joy for everyone involved. I really don't care if life has purpose. At one point in time I did, but for some reason that care faded. I realized that it's really just a waste of time to worry about anyways. If I can either have an existential crisis and sit around moping about purposelessness and getting on everyones nerves, or go play Wii with my friends, I'd rather do the latter. If life is purposeless, and you only get one go, you might as enjoy and treasure the time you have instead of [pee]ing in the wind about how little time you have. You might as well imbue purpose into your own life rather than whining about how you have no purpose.

quote:

I am absolutely confident as a former agnostic that I wouldn’t experience the success I have as a spouse, father, friend, and citizen, were it not for my faith; and the people I admire most are all people of faith. In 40+ years of life I have never met an atheist’s life whom upon close inspection I can admire. Never.

I have. Quite a number of them, come to think about it.
It's great that your faith is a cornerstone to your life, but that doesn't mean that everyone needs what you need in order to accomplish the same sort of things.

_____________________________

"Instead of feeling alone in a group its better to have real solitude all by yourself."
~Faye Valentine
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