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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 2:34:53 PM
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WesP
Posts: 2359
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
ORIGINAL: strangeharmony
I'm a strong advocate of affirmative action. The reason why affirmative action exists as a policy is because we've had affirmative action for whites for hundreds of years. At first it was a policy, but now it's no longer on paper but still very prevalent in our culture, and the hope is that affirmative action actually balances it out.
No, I do not believe that minorities are less capable human beings. However, unfortunately, they are often given less opportunities and are not as well trained. This is the reason that many of you are against affirmative action. Why should someone with less credentials obtain a position in a school or workplace over someone more qualified?
The fact is, that if minorities are equally capable, AND equally well trained and brought up in an environment that fosters a high achievement level, then affirmative action would never be used or discussed. It would mean that if 25% of a city's population is black, then theoretically about 25% of the city's qualified people would be black, without quotas or extra programs, if every opportunity was really equal. Affirmative action wouldn't be necessary, they would just accept who's qualified and it would just turn out diverse without extra effort.
I wish I could say this were true now, but it's just not, at least yet. Does it mean that there has to be special accommodations made? For the time being, yes. For example, if a young child is brought up on impoverished city streets, but aspires to be a doctor, but by high school she just doesn't have the minimum SAT scores, I believe it would be just to make some accommodations, at least in this round. Hopefully after a successful education and a career, she now has more opportunity to raise her own children to be highly qualified candidates from the start of their life, and affirmative action would not be necessary to help them obtain what they need. This is the purpose of affirmative action.
While on the topic of SAT scores, has anyone else ever looked at average SAT scores in various districts? Have you noticed that average scores are significantly lower in black cities than in white? Anyone who believes we live in a society with equal opportunities must see blacks as less capable.
My hope and prayer is that in my lifetime, we won't have to go through any particular measures to stop affirmative action, and that it will be an old policy that will just be collecting dust because there are plenty of qualified minorities, and no extra effort would need to be made to have diverse schools and workplaces.
A couple of facts about me:
white
male
scored 1470 on SAT after working all night and falling asleep in middle
7 grand below poverty level
work for government
cannot advance here
every boss here is female and non-white
Yeah. AA works well.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 4:19:31 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
Come to the south. It is alive and well.
Been there. It is needed in the South! Whew, it's needed.
The education systems all over are terrible, us is like 14 in world and going state to state it changes.
They need to scrap the whole system and start over.
We teach so many lies that it ain't funny.
WE came from apes, Columbus discovered america, etc.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 4:28:13 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6364
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
Come to the south. It is alive and well.
Been there. It is needed in the South! Whew, it's needed.
How long ago did you live in the South, 1968?
I either live in another universe or you have a prejudicial view of today's South.
When I got laid off two years ago at a big manufacturing plant, it wasn't minorities going out the door. It wasn't even whites. It was overwhelmingly over-50s approaching the time they would have to start contributing serious amounts to our retirement plans. Now, I find myself in the position of paying almost $600 a month for health insurance and no new contributions to the piddling pension.
Young people don't worry about because they have forever to be young...
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 4:33:50 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
How long ago did you live in the South, 1968?
I go south every year.
Have family and friends there now.
When it comes to jobs? Terrible record, look it up.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 4:36:51 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6364
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
How long ago did you live in the South, 1968?
I go south every year.
Have family and friends there now.
When it comes to jobs? Terrible record, look it up.
Show me. All I have to go on is just what I see...
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 6:32:35 PM
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saved9201
Posts: 707
Joined: 4/15/2005
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The last Levis Strauss Jeans factory in the United States closed sometime in the early 90's in west Texas. Before it closed, it was involved in a very interesting piece of litigation involving Affirmative Action. The factory employed mostly Hispanics, and all upper management was hispanic. It was virtually impossible for a non-hispanic to get a job there and white people finally filed a grevance against the company. Levis had an AA policy in place and it was used here to force the hispanic management to hire white people.
When I was in the army, I was also denied a position as a First Sergeant because in my Battalion at the time of my assignment, two of the four First Sergeants were black and the racial makeup of the battalion was not near 50 percent black, more like 10 percent.
At historically black colleges and universities, there are many white students who get admitted ahead of blacks, and get preferential treatment when it comes to scholarships as well. Look it up.
AA works both ways. Moreover, most of you assume that white people will always be the majority and therefore will never benefit from AA. Well, AA insures that the majority cannot hire only those that they're "comfortable with", whoever that majority is. In California, for example, Hispanics are now the majority. They actually outnumber blacks nationwide. So while white folks are looking over their shoulders at black folks, guess what? Anyway, I don't think AA is racist because its goal is to discourage racism. Do speed limits discriminate against safe drivers? I think so but it's a necessary inconvenience. Yes, I said inconvenience, because I believe that most white people who claim to have been "victimized" by AA, that's really all it is.
- Julius
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 7:05:46 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5782
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: saved9201
When I was in the army, I was also denied a position as a First Sergeant because in my Battalion at the time of my assignment, two of the four First Sergeants were black and the racial makeup of the battalion was not near 50 percent black, more like 10 percent.
This post really points out how AA becomes quotas (even though quotas are supposedly non-exestant).
I do believe if I were a peron of color I would be very angry that the government and the universities assumed I could not compete on a level playing field because of my color or sex.
I ask again why as to what was posted about the ACT scores of black high school graduates being lower than white scores. I do not believe in all that bell curve "Certain races are dumber than others" nonsense. So could someone please explain the reason.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 9:05:19 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
I ask again why as to what was posted about the ACT scores of black high school graduates being lower than white scores.
Because of the schools black kids go to? Ever been to one?
Still the same problems.
Undereducated, poor support, overworked and underpaid teachers.
to me AA was put in place to address the disparities in hiring, school admissions, etc.
AA from Wiki
"The term affirmative action describes policies aimed at a historically socio-politically non-dominant group (typically, minority men or women of all races) intended to promote access to education or employment. Motivation for affirmative action is a desire to redress the effects of past and current discrimination that is regarded as unfair.[who?] It also serves to encourage public institutions such as universities, hospitals and police forces to be more representative of the population[1]."
Where does it say that it wants to put people not qualified, people that are less intelligent?
Education is where white women have made the most gains. ie teachers.
Now that is one job I do say give it back to black people.
These doggone kids is going NUTS.
Need some butt whippin's! Bring back the Catholic NUN!
Between some good strong black people some grandparents and grandmothers and the NUNs.
HMMMM...
Back to OP-
AA , just scrap it.
Start over.
If I could..
First I would start with the known companies that we're involved in slavery. All companies that did business w?Hitler, or South Africa.
I would not want them to have to go by AA rules.
Not at all... LOL.
I would SCRAP it especially for them.
< Message edited by tracydolls -- 5/21/2008 11:25:38 PM >
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 9:28:30 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
The last Levis Strauss Jeans factory in the United States closed sometime in the early 90's in west Texas. Before it closed, it was involved in a very interesting piece of litigation involving Affirmative Action. The factory employed mostly Hispanics, and all upper management was hispanic. It was virtually impossible for a non-hispanic to get a job there and white people finally filed a grevance against the company. Levis had an AA policy in place and it was used here to force the hispanic management to hire white people.
Are there any cases with Hispanics vs. Blacks case? In jobs?
So Levi Strauss hired all Hispanics in upper management, right?
Wow, never thought to even look this up.
< Message edited by tracydolls -- 5/21/2008 11:23:54 PM >
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 9:36:34 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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This is why the Baakke case is so important,
the Michigan case, Bush got involved in?
http://www.npr.org/news/specials/michigan/
""Grutter's lawyers argued that the admissions program at the university's law school was unconstitutional. They based the argument on a 1978 case, Regents of the University of California v. Bakke, where the court ruled that a school could take race and ethnicity into account -- but couldn't use quotas. Instead, admissions programs must be "narrowly tailored" to harm as few people as possible."""
Found that looking for the Hispanic vs. African Americans case, anybody know one?
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/22/2008 1:32:59 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3462
Joined: 4/11/2005
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agreed
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
It may have had some merit when it was first implemented, but after all these years, it's nothing more than reverse racism in all its full-blown liberal glory. It's meant to punish whites for the sins of some of our ancestors.
-Dave
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/22/2008 4:49:01 AM
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saved9201
Posts: 707
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
The last Levis Strauss Jeans factory in the United States closed sometime in the early 90's in west Texas. Before it closed, it was involved in a very interesting piece of litigation involving Affirmative Action. The factory employed mostly Hispanics, and all upper management was hispanic. It was virtually impossible for a non-hispanic to get a job there and white people finally filed a grevance against the company. Levis had an AA policy in place and it was used here to force the hispanic management to hire white people.
Are there any cases with Hispanics vs. Blacks case? In jobs?
So Levi Strauss hired all Hispanics in upper management, right?
Wow, never thought to even look this up.
This was a case we studied in school, and unfortunately, I can't find any link to the case itself. Yes, all upper management was Hispanic and Spanish was the language of choice there.
My point was, somebody said AA is "meant to punish whites for the sins of some of our ancestors", which focuses on the black vs. white aspect of this policy. However, there have been cases, albeit relatively few, where whites have actually used AA to their advantage. And in places where whites are becoming the minority, this may become more common.
Unfortunately, California is not one of those places.
You mentioned Bakke, a case involving a Cal Davis student. Well, after much outcry, in 1996, Propositon 209 eliminated Affirmative Action in California, prohibiting preferential treatment based on race or gender in public employment, education, etc. White folks celebrated because the "enemy" at the time, was blacks who people claimed were taking jobs and college seats away from more qualified whites and this wasn't right. Well, today, only a few years later, two of California's top colleges, UCLA and Cal Berkeley have successfully purged their campuses of African American students as their enrollment at both these campuses is reportedly down as much as 50 percent. Hallelujah! However, whites enrollment is down too, as a result of being allowed to only take into account "merit", Asian-Americans now make up the majority (45 percent as opposed to 34 percent white) of all students of both these universities. In Los Angeles, virtually all political power is in the hands of the majority race there, hispanics. I'm not saying hiring based on merit and merit alone is a bad thing, but when the majority race/culture have all the power and clout and are making all the hiring/admissions decisions, the term "merit" becomes more and more subjective. And without some sort of "watchdog" policy in place, there can be at least the appearance of impropriety and at worse, people taking unfair, unchecked advantage of their majority status. In other words, white people, be careful what you ask for. Those who don't think diversity should be an important goal now, may be really questioning that in the future. Ask the people of California where one day, who knows, "more qualified" openly gays and hispanics will have seized all power.
-Julius
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/22/2008 6:18:02 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
This was a case we studied in school, and unfortunately, I can't find any link to the case itself. Yes, all upper management was Hispanic and Spanish was the language of choice there.
My point was, somebody said AA is "meant to punish whites for the sins of some of our ancestors", which focuses on the black vs. white aspect of this policy. However, there have been cases, albeit relatively few, where whites have actually used AA to their advantage. And in places where whites are becoming the minority, this may become more common.
Julius, I understand your point. Like I said in my post white women have benefitted greatly especially in education, a place I know.
Are there any African american vs, hispanics cases
? I could not find one right off hand.
Eyes got tired looking.
There is a NEED for AA. It just ain't working too well is my point.
I don't believe we will ever get to a point where we won't need it.
My own experiences tell me that. And I live in a "liberal"state.
I have been called based on resume/tests scores only to see the "gasp" that I was black..
Have actually heard "she's black?"
They use to have me train spec. ed teachers in a behavior room. I used to wanna cry at what was coming out of college.
I call it the "missionary mentality" I'm coming to save you heathens!
I also know you can be a dumb jock and breeze thru college.
Alot of these laws and gains from the '60's are dinosaurs. They don't work.
Civil Rights bill came about in 1965, Nixon tried hard to get some of it messed with after he won in 1968, 3 years.
Instead of just saying Black people we did you wrong, we'll do a, b or c to fix it, we're sorry. they came up with a Civil Rights Bill that covers everyone.
Now gays can get married.
Everyones got to be protected. EVERYONE.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/22/2008 8:31:35 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5782
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
They use to have me train spec. ed teachers in a behavior room. I used to wanna cry at what was coming out of college.
Well: ignorant in; ignorant out.
This is just the normal result of letting low SAT scorers into college before they are qualified and ahead of the higher scorers.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/22/2008 8:36:52 AM
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DarleneSchreiber
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Well...MLK, Jr. said he was looking for a day when "men would be judged on the content of their character and not the color of their skin." How does Affirmative Action help bring that about? Quite obviously, it doesn't! So, yes, that would be a majorly racist policy and should be an affront to any person, of any minority!
Well...I see that this issue has already been discussed and my quote is not perfect and exact...but it's as I know it and, for some reason, it made an impression on me. What a concept anyway...right? What would happen to any one of us if we were actually judged on the content of our character...period?
< Message edited by DarleneSchreiber -- 5/22/2008 8:55:42 AM >
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/22/2008 8:52:49 AM
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Closie
Posts: 300
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But if most of the recipients of AA are women, why is the focus on race?
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/22/2008 8:58:45 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5782
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Closie
But if most of the recipients of AA are women, why is the focus on race?
I maintain that AA is racist and demeaning to everyone it considers to not be able to comete on a level playing field; folks of color and females.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/22/2008 9:10:55 AM
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Closie
Posts: 300
Joined: 4/14/2005
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Wouldn't that then make it 'sexist and racist'? Why just racist?
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/22/2008 9:32:53 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5782
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Closie
Wouldn't that then make it 'sexist and racist'? Why just racist?
OK, I will go along with Affirmative Action is sexist and racist, and add demeaning and prejudice.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/22/2008 9:41:07 AM
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Closie
Posts: 300
Joined: 4/14/2005
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You gonna edit the title of this thread?
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/22/2008 9:43:25 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6364
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
I ask again why as to what was posted about the ACT scores of black high school graduates being lower than white scores.
Because of the schools black kids go to? Ever been to one?
You need to move to the South. Down here, all kids, red & yellow, black & white, all attend the same schools from pre-K through 12th grade - and even at the state college level. And they have since I was in 9th grade - some 42 years ago. Same schools, same classes, same teachers, same textbooks, same opportunity to learn and excel.
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/22/2008 9:43:47 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5782
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Closie
You gonna edit the title of this thread?
Probably not as I feel that too long of title is not a good thing, and when folks read the thread it is evident what all is being covered.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/22/2008 9:59:53 AM
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Closie
Posts: 300
Joined: 4/14/2005
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"Is Affirmative Action Racist/Sexist?" Will that work and convey that same concept? Actually "sexist/racist" would be more appropriate since more women benefit....but either order would be representative.
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/22/2008 10:25:05 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3462
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Being a woman, I would not want a job someone could do better, because I have a little good pride, in my myself, and work ethic, and abilities. I never want to be second choice, because someone had to pick me to fill a slot for Affirmative Action. It is akin to a woman sleeping her way to the top, which I have seen many, many, many, times. If someone picks me because they have to, then where is the accomplishment in that? There is no difference, both being promoted because of distinct anatomy parts. They can just keep it, not for me, a Godly woman.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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