How much education does a pastor really need? (Full Version)

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Robert_G -> How much education does a pastor really need? (5/21/2008 10:11:51 PM)

Our church is in the process of hiring 2 youth pastors.
My wife is on the hiring committee.
It seems that in our church, education (as in the full 4 year degree) is deemed very important (but not absolute) on whether you get hired or not.

I've seen Pastors with hearts on fire for God with next to no education do wonders for a church, and lead many to Christ.
I've also seen Pastors with Masters Degrees and yet never move a congregation at all.

My personal thoughts are that a heart for God comes first, and education (while important), comes a distant second.

I think we have biblical reference to go on too.
Peter and John by todays standards probably had the equivilant of a grade 5 education, while we know Paul was very educated for a man of his day.
Both Peter and John, as well as Paul, had very successful ministries, but I guess my point is that Peter and John (with almost no education), had much more of a successful ministry then many Pastors today who have a Masters Degree.

What do some other people think on this?



tamborinegirl -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/21/2008 11:04:43 PM)

I think that all the education you need is from above. My father is a pastor and he has done pretty good. I believe that if God has called you in to the ministry, then God will be the one who will teach you what to say and what to do. Because like you said, "Peter and John (with almost no education), had much more of a successful ministry then many pastors today who have a Masters Degree." Like it say's in Jeremiah 33:3 "Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know." Only God can guide you to what he wants you to do, and only he will revieal who is right for the Job. In conclusion I think that the only education a pastor needs is the education that God gives. Well that is my opinion any way. I hope I was able to help. Good Luck.



semperfidelis -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/21/2008 11:26:41 PM)

You didn't say whether this was hiring from within the church or outside.

All depends on the person. Keep in mind that Peter and John also got to spend 3 years with Jesus and were the first ones filled with the Holy Spirit.

Just a thought... you're hiring 2? [;)] You've got options with both. I don't think you have to throw both wants out, but it gives you the opportunity to expand a bit. If one is a bit weak in knowledge but great with the kids and is full of the Holy Spirit, you've got a great catch. If the other is strong in knowledge... that person better have love and be able to connect with the kids. AND better be full of the Holy Spirit.

Some knowledge isn't measured by paper. It can be important, but should never be required. However, don't hire someone with the requirement they get piece of paper. That's unfair. All the same, don't be fooled and get someone just because they have a degree and think that they'll bond well with the kids.

Final thoughts: let the kids decide. Watch from a distance and keep an ear to the ground. Ideally, hire from within the church.

My church's preference is to always hire/promote based on current servanthood in a ministry and leadership demonstrated.



pstrdebi -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/21/2008 11:29:11 PM)

Hi Robert...

Education is important... but biblical education. And although my husband and I have a lot of that under our belts, I do not necessarily believe it needs to be a 4 year "degree'd" education.

As you said, I have seen many, many pastors serve the Lord wholeheartedly... and do exceptional jobs at leading their flocks. And I have seen the flip-side.

Example: Many years ago (before I was ordained) my pastor from the church I attended then, retired. They did the whole long and drawn out pastor search thing.... and found an extremely educated young man to take over the pulpit. He came in head-strong and full of "book-sense"... but he had no common sense... nor did he have any "people-sense." That church (of about 500) split like veil in the temple.

Another example: same church, different pastor. The board decides to hire a young man right out of grad school, 22 yrs old, no prior exp. to take over a huge youth department.... with a 60,000 a year pay check. The reasoning?... he reminded the pastor of himself at that age, and he was educated. At last contact, the youth dept. is down to about 25 and the 'youth pastor' burned out.

This is one church that might learn next time.

There is no substitute, as far as we're concerned, for heart; and hands on, hard knocks experience, along with good, strong biblical knowledge.

I know there will be many that disagree... but I've "been there, done that."

God bless...
Pastor Debi
[:)]



pstrdebi -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/21/2008 11:32:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: semperfidelis

I may not have 3 greek letters but I have 2 latin words: SEMPER FIDELIS


HOO-RAH!!!
[;)]



rcjones -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/22/2008 12:44:13 AM)

My preference is to look for the kid who hangs around church always looking for ways to help and serve, mentor him a bit to really know his heart and then send him to school.


You get a man who already is known and loved by the church, who has a heart to serve and an education. If you have to drop one, drop the education.



pstrdebi -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/22/2008 1:25:02 AM)

BTW....

If you want to have your faith ignited and have a good sense of "a heart for God/God's call" vs. education... I would encourage you (and everyone) to read a little book called "Deeper Experiences of Famous Christians" by James Gilchrist Lawson. (Warner Press, Orig. Copyright 1911)
WOW!!!
You will be glad you read it!

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=171803&netp_id=512446&event=EBRN&item_code=WW&view=details



BibleBased -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/22/2008 11:40:40 AM)

Of course i'd just read what the bible tells us about appointing people to positions of authority within the church - but this will usually be last on people's list? Let me help you. 1 Timothy chapter 3. There are many other pointers in the New Testament. Let's stop with the personal opinion - what would you do/ what would i do and GO STRAIGHT to what God's Word the bible TELLS us to do.

I've never found anything about degree courses. Bible education yes. Being sober yes. Being in charge of his family yes. Standing out already in the congregation. NOT a NEW follower. It's all there and that's just from my bad memory! But if people want to appoint in a 'satan's worldly' way instead of God's biblical way - then no wonder the church is in such a mess!

I grow so tired of people ignoring the bible, especially in church things! BibleBased.



crownlaurel -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/22/2008 11:28:49 PM)

My husband came to this country in 1989 with a weak understanding of Spanish and no English. He had dropped out of school after only a few years because it was too far to walk and there was a war in his country. Over the years he has learned to read using a Spanish Bible and has learned to write and has learned English. He's teaching himself to use a computer and work with Excel and other programs.

When the mother church asked dh for a resume, we wrote about his experience in leadership in churches and then under "education" we put something like "Self-taught to read and write both English and Spanish." We also included a year of church planting training we both had and that he studies almost constantly. His testimony and the clear call on his life shone through and this church that normally places a high importance on education accepted him as the mission pastor.

After years of working hard labor jobs and being looked over for promotions time and again, he was laid off in February. With the same resume he has now begun a job as an Employee Development Leader for a company with over 1500 employees. Much of his job is similar to chaplain but he has other duties and responsibilities as well.

This is a man who has absolutely no formal education other than a year of "Layman's Bible Institute" of NOBTS. I think sometimes we look at degrees and years in institutions without realizing that education is what one makes of it.



NYCorBUST -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/23/2008 12:32:51 AM)

I have a couple of thoughts about this

First:

quote:

Our church is in the process of hiring 2 youth pastors.
My wife is on the hiring committee.
It seems that in our church, education (as in the full 4 year degree) is deemed very important (but not absolute) on whether you get hired or not.


I would say, if you are hiring someone "outside" of your local church - meaning someone you totally do not know, then this would be very important because anyone can put on a "good act" for an interview and even for the first few months. Yet, at the same time, the probability of someone who went to some sort of "Bible School/Christian Education/training" for youth ministries are less probable to "fail" or "not live up to expectations" than someone "off the streets" whom noone knows.

So, in short, a church hiring someone OUTSIDE Of the their local congregation (meaning noone knows the applicant) it would make sense to see "formal education" behind them.

Now, if your church is willing to hire someone from within the local church - then education would not be important (to me anyhow) because you would "know them". But with this kind of hire, it would make sense that the applicant already be in a leadership role and putting in the time and effort to run the ministry as best they could. Therefore, this "layleader" would be "promoted" into the "pastoral role". Of course this comes with careful consideration.

quote:

I've seen Pastors with hearts on fire for God with next to no education do wonders for a church, and lead many to Christ.
I've also seen Pastors with Masters Degrees and yet never move a congregation at all.

My personal thoughts are that a heart for God comes first, and education (while important), comes a distant second.

I think we have biblical reference to go on too.
Peter and John by todays standards probably had the equivilant of a grade 5 education, while we know Paul was very educated for a man of his day.
Both Peter and John, as well as Paul, had very successful ministries, but I guess my point is that Peter and John (with almost no education), had much more of a successful ministry then many Pastors today who have a Masters Degree.

What do some other people think on this?


I whole heartily agree with this portion.



PastorPatricia -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/23/2008 12:04:39 PM)

I have three years of Bible college, a degree in ministry and I wish I had far more education. There needs to be a balance of calling and education. One thing I found at Bible college was the importance of understanding and preparation. We did a morning devotional time that we took turns leading. You could always tell who had done their homework and those who claimed the Holy Spirit had given them the message, usually their lack of study and preparation showed. All knowledge comes from God. I would suggest you look for someone with a balance of education and experience.



pbaribeault -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/23/2008 4:31:27 PM)

I'd say that a pastor who intends to minister to (and alongside) people who value post secondary education should have a post secondary education... or they are not likely to be very successful ministering to that demographic... Since a leadership ministry is based on respect, and it's hard to respect someone who disdains something you value.



bluestone -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/23/2008 5:15:18 PM)

I would never consider sitting under the pastoral ministry of someone who had not at least gone to Bible school, and preferably college. I want someone who has studied in the original languages, who has some courses in counseling and church management under his belt.

Too many yahoos proclaim themselves to be preachers, then get hired into churches and cause disaster, or lead people astray. Sometimes it is malicious, other times it is from sincere but ignorant men.

Education is not the only requirement, but it should be a given.



stellaluna -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/23/2008 7:53:14 PM)

If education is less important, then what's the point of going to seminary at all? (Asking those who don't value the seminary education.)



Roberta_ -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/23/2008 8:09:55 PM)

I think it depends on the person. Some people need more education than others.



armydude -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/23/2008 9:07:16 PM)

As an ordained minister without a college degree, I have found it very interesting that so many churches are so closed minded to anyone without a college degree. It's almost as if without a college degree, someone can't be called by God to minister. It's a refreshing change to see that's not the case everywhere, but it seems as though it's everywhere around here... *sigh*



crankius -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/23/2008 10:49:14 PM)

If a church finds an excellent Biblically qualified candidate for the youth pastor position, but find that he is lacking in the type of education they desire, the church can offer him a package of pay plus tuition for school.

It is clear that an elder is to be able to rightly divide the Word and be able to teach the Word, but a formal education is not necessary to do those things. HOWEVER, a formal education certainly enhances Biblical knowledge and study. Seminary does not MAKE a pastor; God matures a man to the Biblical qualifications. Many men graduate from seminary and yet are Biblically unqualified to be an elder. [&:]

I prefer my pastor to have an education, but there are many Biblically qualified men I would sit under who do not have a specific Bible or seminary degree.



BibleL7 -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/24/2008 1:27:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

I would never consider sitting under the pastoral ministry of someone who had not at least gone to Bible school, and preferably college. I want someone who has studied in the original languages, who has some courses in counseling and church management under his belt.

Too many yahoos proclaim themselves to be preachers, then get hired into churches and cause disaster, or lead people astray. Sometimes it is malicious, other times it is from sincere but ignorant men.

Education is not the only requirement, but it should be a given.



As for the first part of your post I would say you would probably miss out on one of the best pastoral ministries ever. Very few even going to college or Bible school ever study the original languages. As for courses in counseling that is usually secular and does not consider the Bible whatsoever. And church management is the job of the treasurer or trustees or in other churches elder boards.

As to the second part that happens more with those who attend college or seminary more often than those who learn under pastors or are self taught for most who do not have the formal education who proclaim their calling are first licensed by and serve under a pastor for several years before he would be allowed to be ordained. With or without formal education I believe that if a person does not serve at least a year under a pastor they should not be considered for pastor position. Then the church seeking the pastor could ask the pastor as to the persons abilities.

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

If education is less important, then what's the point of going to seminary at all? (Asking those who don't value the seminary education.)


I would say going to seminary would be something that should be done only after you have references from others that have attended them and seen that they are well fit to be a pastor. Many I have talked to that are in seminary are learning similar lies about american history and church history that any secular school would teach. Many go to seminary to be able to get a job in ministry and get paid good money then are found that they should never have been hired. I know of one pastor who after years of pastoring a church he decided to go to seminary school. His church was doing just fine he just felt he wanted the education. Havent heard from him since to know what has been going on but He did very well as a pastor without the education. In the past 10 years I have known many ministers and pastors in fact the majority of the people I know are in ministry, very few have had Bible college or Seminary training yet I have seen the Lord work through them to bring along others with astonishing life changing. The Lord calls those whom He wants to be leaders and He equips them. I am not saying that the education is not valuable to some but it should never be a requirement for a leader in the Church. We should look only to the requrements in Scripture to know who is or is not qualified to be a leader.



Russski1 -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/26/2008 6:02:30 PM)

Education should never be juxtaposed against heart.......

Imagine, if you will, the wonderful benefit of one who is fully educated AND a heart on fire for souls!

Regards,

prw



hjemerson -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/27/2008 12:49:02 PM)

I think it will depend on the size and the people they willbe working with as if you are a very educated church people and the youth are from college dergree home that will have to come in to the plan. Again expercian and age of the person along with their family size I have seen many great youth pastor burn out from all the pressure at church and a family life to . they have to some times choose. So I would think the communitee will have a open heart and mind to look ar older expercance person, (I would never hire from in the church i have seen to many "I knew you when" Jesus even did not get accepted when he when back home!) We just left Bible College (not Young couple but when back as empity nester) We have kept in contact with many of the couple the when back to their Home church as Ass.Pastor.Music/Or Youth / After 2-3 years they now see it was a mistake and are looking to get away.
If you have a good base group of yputh I wish the adults that are seeking a person to lead them will look and listen to what they say after a vist the new persons come for a interview/visit. Most of all It hurts a group when you hire some one that only using the yooouth group as a stepping stone to a large service. (Bonding even at teen age is important!)
Education is Imporant for all Jobs . How can you lead and tell other they should study and impove their life if the leader does not. (in this day and age of home studies etc) We are not living in our grand parent day where a 3 grade education was High education, ALL in all it has to be the calling of the Holy Sprit.



hjemerson -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/27/2008 12:59:57 PM)

WOW If you want somthing to back up the need for education check this post out By" brothertodd" "I'M pleading with youth leaders" It will let you know what I was saying!



youthrev -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/28/2008 2:44:57 PM)

The problem is that so many churches go by formula instead of leadership of the Holy Spirit. They don't even depend on the Holy Spirit to guide the development of job qualifications. Obviously, the biblical requirements are absolutely necessary but there are other things the church leadership (in this case, pastoral) needs to be aware of as well.

The first thing that needs to be determined is, "Is this person called of God to ministry?" The reason I'm in ministry is because God CALLED me to it. The reason I went to Bible college is because God CALLED me to go. The reason I went to my first full-time ministry position is that God CALLED me to go there. I left there for seminary because God CALLED me there. My last two churches were ministries to which God CALLED me. We have to be careful not to say that a pastor should or should not have an education. My ex-brother-in-law said that he was called to ministry. When I asked him about schooling he said, "God called me into ministry, not into seminary." He has yet to serve in a ministry position, but has hopped from one job to another. Did he not get a ministry because he wasn't educated? I don't think so. I think that his total unwillingness to consider school displayed a rebellious heart in which he told God, "I'll serve you, but it will be on my terms." For me it wasn't my degree that God used to prepare me for ministry, but it was the fact that I was willing to do whatever it takes to be in ministry. And the educational experiences I went through smelted, shaped, and sharpened me for ministry.

I know many pastors who take great pride in their education, as their resume is read when they speak at conferences. But I also know some pastors who take great pride in their lack of formal education as a way to show how "humble" they are. It is not in the degree, but in the heart. Anyone, educated or not, can destroy a church or be so proud as to be unusable. We ought to be very careful of holding such strong opinions about what someone "must" do in order to be effective in ministry.

And, in response to the comment about counseling being worldly and not of the Bible at all, there is a lot of good, strong Biblical counseling available. The counseling from many pastors and counselors I know is very biblical and is the farthest thing from humanistic. Again, we ought to be careful with such fire-branded opinions based on limited experience.



BibleL7 -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/29/2008 1:14:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: youthrev

And, in response to the comment about counseling being worldly and not of the Bible at all, there is a lot of good, strong Biblical counseling available. The counseling from many pastors and counselors I know is very biblical and is the farthest thing from humanistic. Again, we ought to be careful with such fire-branded opinions based on limited experience.


I did not say that Biblical counceling was not available I was refering to college or university courses on counceling. I have known many pastors and counselors who go by the bible yet most college courses on the subject are worldly. I have known several ministers who where in such courses and some who majored in counceling yet the courses were totally secular based on secular phsychiatry and there would never be reference to the Bible for most college professors will not consider anything biblical. This is also the case in many counseling courses in seminaries. Biblical counseling comes from someone who has good understanding of the Bible and a relationship with the Lord.



hjemerson -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/29/2008 9:46:14 AM)

Few good points made I think and feel we can can have a balance of education< but most A God Calling is the Only Point that should be needed. Why would any boby want to be a pastor.etc with out a God Calling . Maybe for MONEY? Or Family Pushed him in to it? Well I just Pray that Like I said With education beeing so easy to rececve now days use of internet and home base study any adult in the leadership postion especiallyl over youth would want some education not alway a degree I have over 250 college hours but not a degree I love school and take classes that at my intrest that service the Lords in Children Ministry/Family etc. But again I just Put my hushband thu a Christain college so he Has the degree after he answer the call of God.
A open Mind can pick up some class at a local community college yes they may teach the worlds way but a Christian should strong to listen take in th postive part and apply it to a christian walk! (Some time that one of the best place to show a christain walk of life)Many Bible only Counselors need to hear the teaching and ways them apply the Bible and the the way to apply the Walk with Christ. Many us it to what they think. I have seen the Harm some of these Counselors has caused!! Take the Best the world has and use it to the Lords work!



youthrev -> RE: How much education does a pastor really need? (5/29/2008 11:09:51 AM)

BibleL7,

I understood what you were saying from your initial post and that's what I was answering. Your statements make it clear how you feel about counseling courses. Yes, if you go to a secular college (and even some Bible/Christian colleges), the courses will come from a secular standpoint. But my minor in college was Christian Counseling (nearly 40 hours) and in Seminary I took about 15 more hours of counseling courses. I'm far from being a licensed counselor, but I have taken enough courses from a biblical counseling standpoint to speak intelligently on the subject. I can assure you that there are several Christian schools that teach counseling and therapy from a strong biblical perspective. I have friends who went to other colleges who are Christian counselors and their ministry addresses the whole person, body, mind, and spirit.

To your honor, however, I will acquiesce that there are some terrible Christian counselors and some terrible pastors who don't know when they are in over their heads or give bad counsel based on limited knowledge or an article they just read. The Word of God and the Spirit of God ought to be our sources for effective counsel on the whole person. After all, people are emotional and thinking people; and both perspectives and emotions can get out of whack. Ultimately only God can fix it.



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