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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2005 9:35:14 AM
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heavenskeys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LordComeQuickly
I have read through the speculation/opinion/scripture on this forum, and I have been studying the Word on my own to try to come up with a sound, scriptural answer.
What's interesting is that mormons and jw's use similar tactics to defend their doctrines that I've seen used in other posts in this thread to defend the alleged requirement to tithe; tactics that these same people would themselves deem unacceptable when used to defend other doctrines they happen to reject.
For example, Jesus said in John 10:34, "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" Mormons took this and ran with it as support for their doctrine that we are gods, similar to Elohim, only not yet glorified as such. But these same people turn right around and point at a conversation Jesus had about the hypocrisy of the pharasees, in that they tithe even of the spices they grew, and yet left the weightier matters of the Law undone. They assume that just because Jesus made mere mention of that part of the Law that it's binding upon us today.
Well, He also made mention of it being written that we are gods. Does that mean that because it was mentioned by the Lord that it applies to us today? What was meant by the statement of our being gods goes completely ignored by mormons, just as what Jesus was actually saying about the tithe of anise and cumin goes mostly ignored by these people.
The game of "whatever turns out to be convenient is fair game" drones onward with rules that are impossible to comprehend. Never mind that Jesus was addressing a people who were still under obligation to obedience to all the Law, which included tithing of the increase of their crops and/or herds. Also, never mind that we have not one example of Jesus paying a tithe since He had no crops or herds from which to tithe of the increase. All else aside, that alone destroys the doctrine of contined tithing still being a requirement for today. The doctrine of required tithing stands upon nothing more substantial than the foundation of the air castle upon which it was built.
quote:
Please do not assume that because someone questions 'tithing as we know it' that we are just trying to find an excuse not to tithe. I am fully aware that everything I have is the Lord's. But does the bible not say to "prove all things" ?? I think it would be foolish to follow this blindly, regardless of how you are convicted.
Amen. Prove all things.....except those things that happen to be my pet doctrines drilled into my head by false teachers.....oops, sorry. Had a little hickup there..... 
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If I were prideful, I might be offended by HK's posts, but I appreciate being challenged to read scripture, pray, and truly seek God's help in this subject. I think it is pride, only because some of the posts sound like people who are boasting of their works. God bestows His blessings (and trials) based solely on His sovreign will.
I'm so thankful that what we do is based upon the merits of God's soveriegnty, perfection, and righteousness rather than the imperfection of the letter of the Law. I agree with the pro-required-tithing crowd in that the Lord looks upon the heart, but I disagree with them when they reject the rest of that truth by believing that He also scrutinizes how much is in our hands as we give. What is in our hands is a direct reflection of what's in the heart. When there's a need, I would say that most here would do what can be done to fill that need. What's sad is that the filling of that need most generally is secondary to what's given to support a dead building and programs.
quote:
I read this scripture today, so please correct me if I have taken this out of context:
Matthew 23:13-23, where He is denouncing the Pharisees and Scribes for their hypocricy and their outward apparance of 'religion'...
It sounds to me (correct me if I am wrong) that Jesus is speaking against the religious people who put more faith in their gift, and their ability to give, then they do to the One who sanctifies us.
I think you pretty much hit dead center of the Lord's intent.
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Here is a question to those who like to mention 'first fruits', and I am sencerely asking here, wouldnt that mean everything, not just cash???? I have a garden now, so I am honestly asking, do I give the first fruits of my veggies?? I actually tried bringing in some veggies to church, and the woman at the desk looked at me like I was crazy, and a moron.
Uh, oh. There you go confusing the issue with facts. False teachers don't like a mirror being held up to their faces to see the spittle of nonsense flowing out of their own mouths. That's why the stake of tithing is pounded through hearts in the religious ceremony of aristotilian rhetoric. It's easier to be heard without interruption, which makes a false message harder to reject in the minds of the less critical when the message is allowed to drone on without interruption and challenge. It's similar to brainwashing, which is the exact same tactic mormons and jw's have been using for many decades.
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Arent most of the churches that are preaching on the law of tithing preaching on Sunday? If we are going to keep the law, why arent we recognizing the Sabbath??
EEEEK!!!!! Another home run!!!!! 
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but if we are not to be cafeteria-christians, going thru this bible and picking and choosing what we want to adhere to, why do we pick and choose certain of the Jewish laws??
Well, I don't blame the defenders of required tithing so much as I do those bozo's behind the pulpit, radio and television, hammering this nonsense as if it had enough substance to absorb the blows. It's almost as if Robert Tilton were in more than one place at a time. I'm not completely removing blame from the defenders of required tithing, because when they refuse to give due consideration of the challenges provided just because we don't happen to be leaders in their "church", well, the fallacy of their reactions to this become quite evident. I'm no better than they are. I too am prone to falsehoods, but this one happens to be so glaringly obvious that their continued rejection is rendered even more suspect.
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every church that Ive attended makes a big deal around Christmas time about sending toys to the poor, and shoes to the needy, but the rest of the year, the focus is on the community center being built. That should be an ongoing emphasis of our church, but it's not. So if we know that we will be accountable for what God has given us, then shouldnt we make sure that we are using it for His glory, and not ours??
Therein lies the horror of what spiritual discernment brings to our awareness, which, in this case, is the utter depravity within organized religion. It spends much time and effort trying to establish itself on equal footing with the Bible, and yet does those things that are glaringly hateful toward the poor by absorbing the primary portion of its people's giving for things that fulfill personal desire for temporal fulfillment, that stores up no treasure in Heaven, and fails to bring glory to God.
I once pastored at a "church" that had hired, fully armed, off-duty police walking the hallways to keep the "vagabonds and beggars" out who were seeking assistance. Those people didn't want to brush up against someone who had on dirty rags. Dry cleaning is expensive, you know.
Perhaps many will find themselves speechless when they see just how many "pastors" are cast into the pits of Hell, and how many are counted as being among the least in Heaven.....
HK
< Message edited by heavenskeys -- 8/27/2005 9:43:02 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2005 2:23:52 PM
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shouldknowbetter
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p31w quoted:
quote:
(BTW they were under foreign rule so this had NOTHING to do with the government it ONLY had to do with the place and people who were selected by God to carry out his work on earth - the temple at this time contained the ONLY storehouse - to understand the history of this time one must have studied all the books of histoy. Most scholars believe Mal. was the prophet sent during the time around Neh. 13 but inorder to understand Neh 13 you need to have read and understood the books of history which came before this time.
True at this time...present tense when Malachi delivered this message in Mal 3... They were under foreign rule... At the present time.... But again anyone actually looking at the verse in true understaning realises that he is speaking in past tense...
Your own rendering proves my point... They robbed God... God said it and you said it. SO if they were under foreign rule and this had nothing to do with the law through Moses. Then please explain how they could rob God...? By not paying tithes to the current King? What? Then even though it is addressed to the whole nation you say it is addressed to us as well. Yet the curse still does not apply even though you say it doesn't, yet it does because this is addressed to all Gods people... Please make up your mind... Your going in circles.
You look down your nose and complain about others twisting scripture and picking and choosing what to obey, etc... Well here you post a discernment that does just that. In this one passage you claim one verse is applicaable and the very next verse in NOT... Even though both are delivered to the same people, at the same time and by the same person.
How can this be. Only one answer you pick and choose and clearly have no understanding from a Biblic standpoint. You repeat only what others have told you.
You have yet to offer one scripture and any reasoned support for your discernment. Furthermore, you can't even deliver your discernment so that others can test it to see if it passes the test when held up to the light of scripture.
Your own tongue (fingers) betray you... You claim that tithing is not required but we are robbing God if we don't and will suffer for it as was the case in Mal 3.
You say that we miss out on blessing (per Mal 3) if we don't tithe, yet every passage in the Bible the tither was always blessed first. No one ever tithed without God first providing it for them.
You claim that giving to God is not of necessity then turn around and say it must be ten percent because of this tithing principle. Just the word coming out of your mouth places necessity on the gift. It must be over this limit because tithe means ten percent.
Like I've said before, The Apostles never used the word "tithe" in any form when teaching Gods people about true Christian actions. They can not be accused of twisting scripture and picking and choosing. I'd carefully consider your continued path down this path.
If your not teaching what the Apostles taught then where is it coming from?
< Message edited by ShouldKnowBetter -- 8/27/2005 2:31:26 PM >
_____________________________
Seek Wisdom from God in prayer and scripture
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2005 12:10:28 AM
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LordComeQuickly
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"Furthermore, you can't even deliver your discernment so that others can test it to see if it passes the test when held up to the light of scripture. "
SKB, that was music to my ears. That is what we do if we love and fear the Lord.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2005 8:20:44 AM
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heavenskeys
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Well said, SKB. Another point that's fascinating is the fact that the Gentile believers were not zealous of the Law, even though the Jewish believers were. I've seen this abused by pro-required-tithing supporters, mostly because they assume more meaning into that terminology than is really there. They tend to ignore what portions of the Law those Jewish believers could possibly have been zealous. It certainly could not have been the ceremonial Laws of sacrifices, for that would have been a slap in the face of the One they claimed to follow, and who fulfilled those sacrifices. So, it logcially follows that one would begin a journey of discovery, if at all possible, to find out what portions of the Law for which they were zealous. At best, one would be stuck with yet another assumption because we are given no specifics. We can only apply logical continuity in relation to what was then (and now) fulfilled, and assume those parts to have been ignored by the zealous, believing Jews.
The counsel in Jerusalem, after issuing their instructions on the matter of circumcision, said nothing about tithes, gifts or anything else. In other words, there was no construct in place for regular giving in support of any existing system of organized religion as we know it today. The argument that the Church "advanced" to the level of having buildings and programs is an additional strain upon credulity, because we are given no indication that the first century Church ever dreamed of any advantage to having a building for the sake of larger numbers of people to gather around some dude with lots of charisma, much less to support such a monstrosity with the primary portion of their giving.
If that one area of the Law (tithing) among all the others Jesus addressed were still binding upon us today, then Paul, Peter, James, et al., failed to do their job. Paul's epsitles are completely silent on a Law with such alleged great importance for us today. We've asked many questions that still go unanswered, and will continue to go unanswered. Every doctrine that finds its support only within the emotions of its adherents is fully characterized by the many earmarks we've seen exhibited in this thread, and others like it.
A false teaching, by any other name, is still a false teaching.
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2005 8:33:36 AM
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P31W
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LordComeQuickly
23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You pay a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, yet you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy, and faith. These things should have been done without neglecting the others.
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2005 8:47:16 AM
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heavenskeys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShouldKnowBetter writing to P31W...
Your own tongue (fingers) betray you... You claim that tithing is not required but we are robbing God if we don't and will suffer for it as was the case in Mal 3.
I think we now know for a fact that there is such a thing as a sixth dimension. It is in this dimension that illogic is commonplace. This is the place the old Looney Toons cartoons depicted back in the old days when cartoons were cartoons. It escapes my ability to comprehend how contradictions can be made coherent and applicable, that oxymorons can be made into something of truth, like true-lies, or its a black sort of white, etc. Maybe I should take some philosophy courses, or better yet, a math course in theorems. I remember those pesky things that were use to prove that 1+1=3. Remember those?
quote:
You say that we miss out on blessing (per Mal 3) if we don't tithe, yet every passage in the Bible the tither was always blessed first. No one ever tithed without God first providing it for them.
Good point. If there was no increase, then there was no blessing, and without blessing, there was no tithe. Without a tithe, there was no support for those who serve the Lord and the poor, and the nation perished. But, never mind those cold, hard facts. We can always, in theory, force reality to conform to our theories, but then we find ourselves in a world with a sky of a completely different color than the one most everyone else is familiar.
quote:
You claim that giving to God is not of necessity then turn around and say it must be ten percent because of this tithing principle.
"Principles" are among the easiest of all "doctrines" to contrive from scriptre. The various cults have concocted entire religions on the basis of contrived principles. It is by way of subjectivism that greater control over the masses is exercised. The RCC is a prime example of this when they kept the Bible out of the hands of the common people. It's a blessing that we have the word of God in our hands in order to dispell all the hokus-pokus of traditionally and socially engineered theologies.
quote:
If your not teaching what the Apostles taught then where is it coming from?
Uh, oh. The implications of this are...(shiver) most disturbing to anyone with a conscience.
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2005 9:02:42 AM
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heavenskeys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
LordComeQuickly
23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You pay a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, yet you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy, and faith. These things should have been done without neglecting the others.
Some poeple just don't get it. I took the liberty of highlighting, within the quote, the obvious, which is the plural. What would have been the result of Jesus teaching that any point of the Law was not valid for those people, at that time, who were still under the Law? Well, gloriosky, He would have nullified any and all claims to being the Messiah, because the true Messiah would never have contradicted the Father and the Law that He gave. How is it that you can establish that tithing is for today simply because it was used as a parellel to illustrate a point? What is your support for this? Do you have any, or is this mostly like a coloring book, where you can color the world within that book any color that best represents your mood on a given day?
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2005 11:23:59 AM
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LordComeQuickly
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OK, well within the scripture that you pointed out, brings up the exact thing that is in question here. No one here has debated giving. That is not the point. That verse specifically defines what a tithe is...mint,dill, and cumin. Surely some of these people in biblical times also earned money, so why is that not ever mentioned in reference to tithing? And if it is, why aren't those verses posted up here more often.
Paul also said that if we are going to be justified by the Law, then we forfeit the Law of Grace and are bound by the Law. In the same way that the Mormons do not believe that the Blood of Christ was sufficient for all sins (including marrying a black man, or lying), so they feel that the individual's bloodshed, or the blood of their relative, is necessary to be justified. So to take the position that because you choose to follow a law, (one out of the many), and pride yourself on how faithfully you follow a law, then you are not supporting the Law of Grace, which means you are bound by the law. That your giving in some way atones for your sins, or makes a difference as to how 'blessed' you are. And what bible teaches that material gain is any indication that youre right with God? Doesn't it say 'blessed are the poor', and 'do not desire to be rich'. That is like taking the opinion that everything 'good' that happens is from God, but anything 'bad' that happens is from satan. God allows good and bad, blessings and trials, allows the sun to shine on the wicked and the righteous, but that just means that whatever He does in your life is because He is sovreign, not because you convinced Him you are good enough with how well you follow your church's 'principals'.
And it would be a different argument if the law itself was a tenth of our cash. The bible clearly states how tithing is defined, as so many of you pro-tithers point out, the first fruits= first of our increase, meaning crops/spices/cattle. And it also seperates tithes and offerings. My understanding is that the offerings were the monetary offerings, in which there is no specified amount, but was given based on need, and what is in the heart. So unless you are giving the first of all your fruits...not just money..then you condemned by your own judgement.
I have a question: When did the definition of tithing change from what it was then, to what it is today, and does anyone know which church was responsable?? Smells kinda Catholic to me.
On a different, but similar note, I had a 7th day Adventist tell me that it was the Catholic church that changed the worship day from the Sabboth to Sunday, and then boasted of their power and influence because the Prodistant churches followed. (I unfortunately do not know her source of this info to give you). Now, don't the 7th day-ers have the same right to look at us Sunday worshippers and hand out judgement about how they love the Lord more, and the good stuff in their life is because they keep the covenant of honoring the Sabboth, and how we must not fear the Lord? I mean, this Law is very clear...in the OT, God says that those who remember the Sabboth will keep his covenant, and it's one of the Ten Commandments for goodness sake. So isnt it a bit hypocritical to pass judgement when you (unless you worship on Sat.) are not keeping many, upon many of the other laws?
Jesus said this in relation to coming not to take away the law, but to fulfill it:
Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven
I dont even know most of the Jewish laws, but I do know that I am probably not keeping them. Most Gentiles do not. And because you follow a church-tradition does not mean that you are following a law.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2005 1:35:41 PM
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shouldknowbetter
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These verses have been dwelling in every corner of my brain for a couple days know...
Matt 17:24-18:1
And when they had come to Capernaum, those who collected the two-drachma tax came to Peter , and said, "Does your teacher not pay the two-drachma tax?" 25 He said, "Yes." And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth collect customs or poll-tax, from their sons or from strangers?" 26 And upon his saying, "From strangers," Jesus said to him, "Consequently the sons are exempt. 27 "But, lest we give them offense, go to the sea, and throw in a hook, and take the first fish that comes up; and when you open its mouth, you will find a stater. Take that and give it to them for you and Me."
NASB
The sons are excempt, the family is exempt, think about that in relation to the goings on here.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2005 1:59:51 PM
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P31W
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quote:
Paul also said that if we are going to be justified by the Law
The principle of tithing and the first fruits have nothing to do with justification.
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2005 7:07:51 PM
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shouldknowbetter
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
Paul also said that if we are going to be justified by the Law
The principle of tithing and the first fruits have nothing to do with justification.
Absolutely correct.....
When a person pulls a number out of the air and begins thinking that there is a level or a minimum that must be met then they make it a justification issue. Even if in their own mind, the thinking that I must meet a certain criteria other than accepting grace though faith then they make Jesus hanging on that cross for nothing.
When they brought back the letter about keeping the law, of which fruit fruits, tithing and a whole list of things belonged to:... The didn't say well people you know that we don't worry about keeping any laws. We know these laws are laid out in the scriputres but: they are nothing concerning justifiaction... BUT you know you better keep them anyway...
Sorry P31W that just isn't it. Your missing the whole point. You have made the tithe a justification issue for you. You may not admit or even understand it but you have done it.
And still the droning continues, even though you can't define what "the Principle of tithing" is and set it before us so that we can see if it's the truth or not. WHY....
If it's truly Gods Truth and not just tradition of men then it should stand the test....
But. It isn't and it never has.
< Message edited by ShouldKnowBetter -- 8/28/2005 8:34:09 PM >
_____________________________
Seek Wisdom from God in prayer and scripture
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2005 9:14:02 PM
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LordComeQuickly
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I agree, HK, that the real problem started with the people teaching on the subject of tithe.
I was reading the first chapter of Titus, and these verses stood out to me. At first I was focused on 1:10-16 which talks about false teachers:
Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Tit 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
Tit 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Tit 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
Tit 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
-But then I focused backwards to where Paul was giving the description of a worthy Leader:
Tit 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
Tit 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
Tit 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
That lead me to think about many of the major Christian leaders (who have a huge influence on Christianity today), which do not meet these qualifications, and therefore are not in a position to come up with their own principals.
For example, am I to believe Joyce Meyer's talk on tithe? She does not meet the qualifications
Or how about Joel Olsteen, who on Larry King, could not admit that Jesus was the only way to heaven. Doesn't he have that best-selling book on money and finances?
Or our 'buddy', Billy Graham, who is a freemason? http://www.geocities.com/endtimedeception/billy.htm
Or his freemason friend, Norman Vincent Peale?
How can you look at the 'religious leaders' out there who have a tremendous amount of influence and not question their ability to deliver the truth, when so many do not meet the requirements in the first place? <(No offense to those who are true Titus 1 teachers)> It's amazing how we just go along with these people and what they say, defensive of anyone who poses a question, or different view, when Jesus and the apostles warned us of false teachers who have crept in unaware.
I am going to continue to study about this, and pray about this, because I do not want to have to explain to Jesus why I chose to follow my church -on any topic- instead of His Word.
Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
< Message edited by LordComeQuickly -- 8/28/2005 10:43:18 PM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2005 11:54:21 AM
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heavenskeys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
Paul also said that if we are going to be justified by the Law
The principle of tithing and the first fruits have nothing to do with justification.
Much clamor is made about the "principle" of tithing. If that were a legitimately biblical principle, then why didn't the Israelites follow it? They followed the instructions of the Law, not some subjective principle. Even when they had spoils from war, the soldiers were only required to hand over one out of 500 to the priests, and the people one out of 50 to the Levites.
I still say that one will search in vain to find one reference anywhere in the Law that required the wage earner to hand over any portion of their wages to the Levite as a tithe. You pro-required-tithing people have nothing on your side for support of this assumption, so you're left with nothing but having become your own authorities, which is no authority at all.
You can spew the same old meaningless rhetoric from now till the end of this earth, but repetition will never add to its impact toward truth. You have no evidence apart from what's removed from its context, setting, and application. The tattered tapestry of the tithe doctrine is far too riddled with holes to be of any value as a shield against the cold, hard facts that stand as testament to this being just another among a long stream of false teachings that have gained ungodly prominence within organized religion.
No thanks. You people have far too many unanswered questions that have been asked of you, and that will continue to go unanswered, because you haven't got the support you need to be taken seriously. The usual fare of emotional appeals in support of tithing simply fail to pass the acid test from the texts and from our God-given reason. This was never about not tithing at all, because we certainly have the freedom to form such a percentage as a personal system, but when you think you have license to lay that yoke on the shoulders of others without any biblical backing, then you, as I said before, have become authoritiers unto yourselves, not aginast anyone else. You are enemies of the freedom we have in Christ Jesus.
Remember, Jesus clearly stated in Luke 11:23, "He that is not with me is against me..."
I realize there are those who don't like calling a spade a spade, but sometimes it's necessary in order to force the supporters of nonsense to a place where they must reflect upon their false doctrines and do some inner reflection to find out why they believe so easily what clearly finds no support within the very authority they claim to follow.
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2005 12:01:18 PM
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caur
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It is necessary to obey God as He commands your life. He has commanded me to tithe. I will do so. He has increased me to do so and I am grateful for the opportunity to do it. I can only speak about what the Lord has taught me on the matter. Like I stated before, folks should obey God in what He is telling THEM to do. If you love Jesus, you will end up doing what He wants you to do, so why worry about it? Funny you should mention rhetoric, that is exactly what your last post is, Heavenskeys.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2005 12:01:33 PM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LordComeQuickly
I am going to continue to study about this, and pray about this, because I do not want to have to explain to Jesus why I chose to follow my church -on any topic- instead of His Word.
Great. Keep us posted on your progress.
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2005 1:31:47 PM
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shouldknowbetter
Posts: 329
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: caur
It is necessary to obey God as He commands your life. He has commanded me to tithe. I will do so. He has increased me to do so and I am grateful for the opportunity to do it. I can only speak about what the Lord has taught me on the matter. Like I stated before, folks should obey God in what He is telling THEM to do. If you love Jesus, you will end up doing what He wants you to do, so why worry about it? Funny you should mention rhetoric, that is exactly what your last post is, Heavenskeys.
caur,
Please consider thinking and studying these:
First, what do you really mean when you use the word necessary?
Second, What commands are you talking about, the law OT or the better law of liberty?
I've read some of your other posts and I think your a little muddy on the concept. You sound like I used to...
Third, How do you know the command is actually from God?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2005 1:58:50 PM
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silvrstridr
Posts: 87
Joined: 7/27/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: heavenskeys
quote:
ORIGINAL: silvrstridr
I'm saying that if you are in overwhelming debt, you should be taking from your own lifestyle before you take from God.
Do you support organized religion with the primary portion of your giving? If so, then you are supporting that which steals from the poor, therefore the Lord, on a regular basis, and are therefore a hypocrite yourself. Giving to man-made, organized religion simply isn't synonymous with giving to the Lord, unless you can show me otherwise. The Church is US, the people, not those dead buildings. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
I don't support organized religion with my tithe, but I tithe to my organized religion (give my tithe money to my church). How do you figure I'm stealing from the poor when all this money is being distributed to them in one way or another? Why is it so hard for you to understand that Churches are meant to be like Christian distribution plants for the community when it comes to the tithe?
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Your verse is taken out of context and twisted. That chapter is about widows, and it is referring to providing for them.
I see. So what you're saying is that Paul was not allowed the same literary license all the rest of us enjoy on a routine basis? Why can't Paul incorporate a universal truth in his specific reference to widows? What would that make you if you handed over your sustenance to others to the point that your own family is suffering? Like Paul said, you will have denied the faith and are worse than an infidel...widows or no widows.
HK
No, im reading the Bible in context, which is what we are supposed to do.
quote:
ORIGINAL: heavenskeys
quote:
ORIGINAL: silvrstridr
HK maybe you need to learn how to read scripture contextually better or something, i see alot of mistakes.
These verses in matthew and luke are saying that God places more importance on the faith than the works (tithing), however, he says "without neglecting the others" meaning we are still to tithe 1/10.
I fully agree with you, at least until you got to the part where you conveniently cast the "us" into that picture. The context of that conversation was fully within the confines of the Law. He was addressing a particular part of the Law to a people who were still under obligation to obey all those Laws, including the Law governing the tithe. If you want to talk about context, then at least remain consistent and inclusive of those elements that are equally relevant.
HK
What makes you any different from me in God's eyes? Jews were not under obligation to obey the law anymore when Jesus walked the earth.
quote:
ORIGINAL: heavenskeys
quote:
ORIGINAL: silvrstridr
also, I'd like to ask, why is this such a dire issue to you HK? Do you feel conviction from God in this area or something?
Nope. I stopped tithing to organized religion long ago, and I'm greatly blessed regardless.
Just like I continue to tithe to my church and am greatly blessed as well.
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Alot of your posts (and there are ALOT of them) could be taken offensively because you have such strong opinion towards this subject, I was just curious...
I understand. I own two domain sites that deal with this very issue (among many other things), and receive many letters from people seeking answers about this issue who feel enslaved to a lawful bondage that simply isn't right. So, when I have time, I come here to spread the cheer.
Lord, I hope you are spreading the truth about tithing, and not simply discouraging people from giving any money to God. But reading your posts has me worried that you are leading others astray now...
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I mean, most ppl don't even put this much thought into tithing beacuse of its irrelevance to salvation.
Ahh, but it is a big deal to many people. I get FAR more inquiries about this from people than anything else. More and more believers are becoming increasingly tired of having the tithe stake rammed through their hearts. Money-grubbing institutions are just as much alive and well today as they've ever been before, and more and more people are becoming more critical in their outlook, which I see as a good thing.
HK
But there are even more "believers" who are tired to mis-interpretation and argument over scripture.
*side note* I don't appreciate your personal attacks on me.
_____________________________
We are here on Earth, only to love one another, and bring them to Christ. Nothing else matters, so why argue about things that don't matter?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2005 2:51:32 PM
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caur
Posts: 230
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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1. What God says to you to do, just do. It is necessary. Maybe not for you but obedience to God is NECESSARY to me.
2. Not getting into an argument about God's law. If you know the Lord, you understand Grace and obedience. What do you obey, if not a "law" or command. Let me instead ask a question of my own. If we are not to:
a. Love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength
OR
b. Love our neighbors as ourselves
Then what ARE we supposed to do? What you yield yourself to obey becomes your master. I choose to make God my master and abide in Christ, who commands me through the Holy Spirit. He is the one changing me but I have to yield to those changes. In other words, I have to be transformed by the renewing of my mind.
3. Because both times I have tried stopping tithing, He corrected me. Through His word, through devotions, through everything in my life. It was VERY plain to me. He likes it very much that I honor Him with my firstfruits. Actually, it is all His anyway and I am just a steward.
If you don't want to tithe, then don't but you would be wise to consider the consequences of trying to get people to stop and calling it a false doctrine. The Bible is filled with examples of people honoring God with their firstfruits. It shows that we know who provides all that we have and whose hands we place our trust.
Last but not least, you presume to guess my understanding by a few posts I have made? Very well, feel free. I am not muddy on Law vs Grace. I live by Grace, the freely given favor of God that I cannot earn. Sometimes Jesus has to take me aside and get me straight on some things, but you know, I am learning. I may not have the depth you do or know the mind of God as well as you, but I am just a child and He is far above me. He loves me and I love Him and have a relationship with Him through Christ. He wants me to tithe, I enjoy it. He taught me that, not some church or man.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2005 4:10:32 PM
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shouldknowbetter
Posts: 329
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: caur
1. What God says to you to do, just do. It is necessary. Maybe not for you but obedience to God is NECESSARY to me.
2. Not getting into an argument about God's law. If you know the Lord, you understand Grace and obedience. What do you obey, if not a "law" or command. Let me instead ask a question of my own. If we are not to:
a. Love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength
OR
b. Love our neighbors as ourselves
Then what ARE we supposed to do? What you yield yourself to obey becomes your master. I choose to make God my master and abide in Christ, who commands me through the Holy Spirit. He is the one changing me but I have to yield to those changes. In other words, I have to be transformed by the renewing of my mind.
3. Because both times I have tried stopping tithing, He corrected me. Through His word, through devotions, through everything in my life. It was VERY plain to me. He likes it very much that I honor Him with my firstfruits. Actually, it is all His anyway and I am just a steward.
If you don't want to tithe, then don't but you would be wise to consider the consequences of trying to get people to stop and calling it a false doctrine. The Bible is filled with examples of people honoring God with their firstfruits. It shows that we know who provides all that we have and whose hands we place our trust.
Last but not least, you presume to guess my understanding by a few posts I have made? Very well, feel free. I am not muddy on Law vs Grace. I live by Grace, the freely given favor of God that I cannot earn. Sometimes Jesus has to take me aside and get me straight on some things, but you know, I am learning. I may not have the depth you do or know the mind of God as well as you, but I am just a child and He is far above me. He loves me and I love Him and have a relationship with Him through Christ. He wants me to tithe, I enjoy it. He taught me that, not some church or man.
Caur,
Not to be argumentative... If your at the point of giving 10% so be it... The amount is and never has been the issue.
However, consider this statement:
It is not necessary to obey Gods commands.... OK before you go off, hear me out...
If we had to obey God then He would never had sent Jesus...The point I tried to get you to see that it's not a requirement or a necessity. It is an attribute. OK, if we love God and Jesus we will obey.... But their love for us is not dependent on our ability to obey... So do you see the point...
The Scriptures say that God so loved the world... Not that the world obeyed and so God loved it and then sent His only begotten son.
Am I clear... Do you understand the point I'm trying to make.
If we love God and are His, we will love Him and love others... That love will drive our actions.
Hopefully I got the point across....
Now, I used to tithe and teach others that it was required and sounded just like you sound... Obey my commands and love God, etc... I probably posted in support of tithing almost a word for word as you posted here. Then as you say God showed me the folly of that discernment...
What father would tell his child "If you pay me 10% it'll show your love for me, then I'll love you back...?
The Holy Spirit will tell you the same story as recorded in the NT by the Apostles who wrote it, under the inspiration of God through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit never promtped an Apostle to use the tithe as anything. Not for obedience, love, self examination...nothing...Rather we see joyful, loving and fruitful giving based on love for one another. They even made sure to record that giving was not of necessity.
YOu are correct about the false doctrine though, it's smart to be reall clear and fully understanding beofre we stand and attempt to teach others... We need to test the discernment against the scriptures. The APostles wrote many, many, many, verses covering giving. They never once used the principle of tithing when talking about these attributes that a believer will exhibit. That's a good test for me.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2005 4:20:10 PM
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silvrstridr
Posts: 87
Joined: 7/27/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShouldKnowBetter
quote:
ORIGINAL: caur
1. What God says to you to do, just do. It is necessary. Maybe not for you but obedience to God is NECESSARY to me.
2. Not getting into an argument about God's law. If you know the Lord, you understand Grace and obedience. What do you obey, if not a "law" or command. Let me instead ask a question of my own. If we are not to:
a. Love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength
OR
b. Love our neighbors as ourselves
Then what ARE we supposed to do? What you yield yourself to obey becomes your master. I choose to make God my master and abide in Christ, who commands me through the Holy Spirit. He is the one changing me but I have to yield to those changes. In other words, I have to be transformed by the renewing of my mind.
3. Because both times I have tried stopping tithing, He corrected me. Through His word, through devotions, through everything in my life. It was VERY plain to me. He likes it very much that I honor Him with my firstfruits. Actually, it is all His anyway and I am just a steward.
If you don't want to tithe, then don't but you would be wise to consider the consequences of trying to get people to stop and calling it a false doctrine. The Bible is filled with examples of people honoring God with their firstfruits. It shows that we know who provides all that we have and whose hands we place our trust.
Last but not least, you presume to guess my understanding by a few posts I have made? Very well, feel free. I am not muddy on Law vs Grace. I live by Grace, the freely given favor of God that I cannot earn. Sometimes Jesus has to take me aside and get me straight on some things, but you know, I am learning. I may not have the depth you do or know the mind of God as well as you, but I am just a child and He is far above me. He loves me and I love Him and have a relationship with Him through Christ. He wants me to tithe, I enjoy it. He taught me that, not some church or man.
Caur,
Not to be argumentative... If your at the point of giving 10% so be it... The amount is and never has been the issue.
However, consider this statement:
It is not necessary to obey Gods commands.... OK before you go off, hear me out...
If we had to obey God then He would never had sent Jesus...The point I tried to get you to see that it's not a requirement or a necessity. It is an attribute. OK, if we love God and Jesus we will obey.... But their love for us is not dependent on our ability to obey... So do you see the point...
The Scriptures say that God so loved the world... Not that the world obeyed and so God loved it and then sent His only begotten son.
Am I clear... Do you understand the point I'm trying to make.
If we love God and are His, we will love Him and love others... That love will drive our actions.
Hopefully I got the point across....
Now, I used to tithe and teach others that it was required and sounded just like you sound... Obey my commands and love God, etc... I probably posted in support of tithing almost a word for word as you posted here. Then as you say God showed me the folly of that discernment...
What father would tell his child "If you pay me 10% it'll show your love for me, then I'll love you back...?
The Holy Spirit will tell you the same story as recorded in the NT by the Apostles who wrote it, under the inspiration of God through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit never promtped an Apostle to use the tithe as anything. Not for obedience, love, self examination...nothing...Rather we see joyful, loving and fruitful giving based on love for one another. They even made sure to record that giving was not of necessity.
YOu are correct about the false doctrine though, it's smart to be reall clear and fully understanding beofre we stand and attempt to teach others... We need to test the discernment against the scriptures. The APostles wrote many, many, many, verses covering giving. They never once used the principle of tithing when talking about these attributes that a believer will exhibit. That's a good test for me.
SKB, you don't get it at all. Adam and Eve HAD to obey. They didn't and were punished. Just like you HAVE to obey the speed, or you'll get punished with a ticket. Obedience is not an attribute, it is COMMANDED by God to his sheep.
If you are honoring God with ALL you can, you will honor him with EVERYTHING, your money too. If you can't see the importance in obedience then you are only honoring God to a degree that you set yourself, not the degree HE set for us. (in otherwords, your putting yourself above God)
_____________________________
We are here on Earth, only to love one another, and bring them to Christ. Nothing else matters, so why argue about things that don't matter?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2005 5:03:58 PM
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shouldknowbetter
Posts: 329
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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I get it perfectly fine....
Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.
I love God with all my heart. No question about it. But I realize that my actions are not required for His love. Sure if we choose to | | |
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