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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2005 9:16:34 PM
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shouldknowbetter
Posts: 329
Joined: 4/19/2005
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LordComeQuickly,
Thanks for the ata boy but I take no credit. The Holy Spirit is the one who did the work.
Like you I to was in a debate like this once and agrued fervently for the pro-tithe stance. Thank God he sent another (bjonson) at that time who did the work then and helped open the veil so I could see clearly...
Isn't it incerdible how the Word opens up when the blinders are off....
I read the Bible from cover to cover and man did it open my eyes after that.....
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2005 9:45:58 PM
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LordComeQuickly
Posts: 14
Joined: 8/20/2005
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Silvrstrdr:"If we just do the minimum, believe in him and be saved by his grace, that's great and all, but when we get to heaven who do you think is going to have the bigger "mansion", the one who was just barely saved by grace, or the one who spent his whole life dedicated to God."
Spoken with such confidence in the flesh.
Why are you assuming that anyone with a different conviction than yours is not dedicated to serving God? We are here, discussing, and not just offering speculation, but sound scripture to back it up. I am aware that I have nothing on my own, outside of what God has given me. That is exactly the reason I want to be a good steward of what He has given me.
I dont think that, for me, paying 'membership dues' to my church honors the Lord in the right way.
SKB, "Isn't it incerdible how the Word opens up when the blinders are off....
Yes, totally agree. And I praise God for revealing the truth.
< Message edited by LordComeQuickly -- 8/29/2005 9:57:01 PM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2005 9:56:11 PM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: caur
It is necessary to obey God as He commands your life. He has commanded me to tithe. I will do so. He has increased me to do so and I am grateful for the opportunity to do it. I can only speak about what the Lord has taught me on the matter. Like I stated before, folks should obey God in what He is telling THEM to do. If you love Jesus, you will end up doing what He wants you to do, so why worry about it? Funny you should mention rhetoric, that is exactly what your last post is, Heavenskeys.
Indeed? Is it also rhetoric to say that the Lord, at least the One described in the Bible, will never lead one to tithe to what abuses the primary portion of one's giving? If direction was received to tithe to organized religion that abuses the tithe, then that direciton obviously was not from the Lord described within the pages of scripture. Remember that John said in I John 4:1, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
The scriptures are one of two acid tests of that spirit that instructed you to tithe. If that tithe is abused by being spent on a dead building, then that spirit was not of God. Do not think that you can escape responsibility for giving the primary portion where it does not go to meet real needs as is exemplified throughout scripture?
Do the test and see for yourself.
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2005 10:22:52 PM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: silvrstridr
I don't support organized religion with my tithe, but I tithe to my organized religion (give my tithe money to my church). How do you figure I'm stealing from the poor when all this money is being distributed to them in one way or another?
Fascinating. How os every bit of the primary portion of your giving distributed to the poor? How do you know this?
quote:
Why is it so hard for you to understand that Churches are meant to be like Christian distribution plants for the community when it comes to the tithe?
Churches? There is only ONE Church, and many man-made institutions. There is a vast difference.
quote:
No, im reading the Bible in context, which is what we are supposed to do.
I agree. I also observed that limiting a universal to only a particular context is just as wrong as taking a non-universal from a context and misapplying it with a broadness beyond its ability to cover. You did the former.
quote:
HK maybe you need to learn how to read scripture contextually better or something, i see alot of mistakes.
Application of contextual rules can be just as abused as hermeneutical and exegetical rules. Now, if you have a specific in mind, then I would be glad to review it with you.
quote:
These verses in matthew and luke are saying that God places more importance on the faith than the works (tithing), however, he says "without neglecting the others" meaning we are still to tithe 1/10.
First you accuse me of violating context, then you turn right around and to that very thing yourself! Jesus, IN CONTEXT, was addressing a people who were still under obligatyion to obedience to the Law, which included the Law of tithing. It's very convenient for you to ignore the context when it suits you, and yet you think you can turn around and accuse me of pointing out an obviou universal? Come now. Let's get real, shall we?
quote:
What makes you any different from me in God's eyes? Jews were not under obligation to obey the law anymore when Jesus walked the earth.
Is that right? What school of theology follows that line of thought? I plant my feet on pretty solid ground when stating that none of the major theological seminaries teach this, and historic Christianity, which I have studied quite extensively, certainly never taught this. So, where did you get this? You cited no authority, so I would appreciate something more than just your word. I can assure you that the New Covenant was not yet in place until Jesus said in Matt 26:27-28, "And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave {it} to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."
That's pretty self-explanatory. The New Covenant was in effect at the passing of that cup to which man's lips first touched to drink of His Blood, and the fulfillment of victory of redemption and defeat of sin and death was accomplished at His resurrection. So, where did you get your information that Jesus' birth brought an end to the Law?
quote:
Lord, I hope you are spreading the truth about tithing, and not simply discouraging people from giving any money to God. But reading your posts has me worried that you are leading others astray now...
Well, I appreciate your concern, but the real misleading is when "pastors" and all the squirts that are called "laymen" (whatever that means) teach people that handing over to organized religion the primary portion of their giving is somehow synonymous with giving to God when they apply one red cent of that portion to the building, lawn care, chandeliers, carpeting, lines painted on the parking lot, etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseam.
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2005 9:14:30 AM
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silvrstridr
Posts: 87
Joined: 7/27/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShouldKnowBetter
Sorry friend... You still lacking... Putting words in the oponents mouth that they never said does not win the debate. That's not the point anyway, the reason is to get at the truth...
No where has anyone taking the anti-tithe stance said anything about just putting in the minimum and just getting into heaven by the skin of our teeth. No one has said to limit giving and use this as an excuse to stop giving or to give less... This is something that your mind is interjecting because you can't bear the truth.
Your last post here just proves the point so clearly... What are your real motives according to your own words... To receive riches. That you can receive a greater reward or a higher seat..
I give because I love God and love others... I could care less what is in it for me...
Luke 14:7-11
And He began speaking a parable to the invited guests when He noticed how they had been picking out the places of honor at the table; saying to them, 8 "When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, lest someone more distinguished than you may have been invited by him, 9 and he who invited you both shall come and say to you,' Give place to this man,' and then in disgrace you proceed to occupy the last place. 10 "But when you are invited, go and recline at the last place, so that when the one who has invited you comes, he may say to you, 'Friend, move up higher'; then you will have honor in the sight of all who are at the table with you. 11 "For everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, and he who humbles himself shall be exalted ."
NASB
Matt 5:1-12
1 And when He saw the multitudes, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him. 2 And opening His mouth He began to teach them, saying,
3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5 "Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
6 "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
10 "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 "Blessed are you when men cast insults at you, and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, on account of Me. 12 "Rejoice, and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
NASB
Added Rev 22:12 (in context)
Rev 22:10-15
And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and let the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and let the one who is holy, still keep himself holy." 12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." 14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
NASB
The reward is entry into the city not higher seats....
1. Im not trying to win a debate. I'm being obedient to God.
2. How dare you, a person who hesitates to give God what is Gods, accuse me of being "in it for the riches", as if the only reason I am a Christian is to get to heaven. (oh, wait, ISNT THAT THE ULTIMATE GOAL? *rolls eyes*)
Philippians 3:13-15 (New International Version)
13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.
1 Peter 1:8-10 (New International Version)
8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,
9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
Ouch, God's Word just called you immature for not looking at heaven as a "prize" given to us.
3. I believe in levels of hell (Dante's Inferno) and heaven. Because God is just, I can't possibly see how SERIAL AXE MURDER would be punished the same as Adultery, or Greed. The same way as I cannot conceive how someone who spends their whole life loving God and serving others (Billy Graham, or someone like that) would be dealt the same reward in Heaven as someone who just rode God out on His grace. Until someone shows me scripture that denies this possiblity (havent found any yet), this is how I believe.
and, your REV 22:12 "in context" does not come to the conclusion that the reward is only "entry into the city".
_____________________________
We are here on Earth, only to love one another, and bring them to Christ. Nothing else matters, so why argue about things that don't matter?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2005 9:23:43 AM
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silvrstridr
Posts: 87
Joined: 7/27/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LordComeQuickly
Silvrstrdr:"If we just do the minimum, believe in him and be saved by his grace, that's great and all, but when we get to heaven who do you think is going to have the bigger "mansion", the one who was just barely saved by grace, or the one who spent his whole life dedicated to God."
Spoken with such confidence in the flesh.
Why are you assuming that anyone with a different conviction than yours is not dedicated to serving God? We are here, discussing, and not just offering speculation, but sound scripture to back it up. I am aware that I have nothing on my own, outside of what God has given me. That is exactly the reason I want to be a good steward of what He has given me.
I dont think that, for me, paying 'membership dues' to my church honors the Lord in the right way.
No, spoken with confidence in God's promised reward.
Im not assuming that, you must have perceived my post wrong.
I dont pay "membership dues". Nor should anyone else. Church isnt a "club".
_____________________________
We are here on Earth, only to love one another, and bring them to Christ. Nothing else matters, so why argue about things that don't matter?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2005 9:42:46 AM
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silvrstridr
Posts: 87
Joined: 7/27/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: heavenskeys
quote:
ORIGINAL: silvrstridr
I don't support organized religion with my tithe, but I tithe to my organized religion (give my tithe money to my church). How do you figure I'm stealing from the poor when all this money is being distributed to them in one way or another?
Fascinating. How os every bit of the primary portion of your giving distributed to the poor? How do you know this?
Because I SEE IT affecting our community. I AM INVOLVED in how it gets spent.
quote:
quote:
Why is it so hard for you to understand that Churches are meant to be like Christian distribution plants for the community when it comes to the tithe?
Churches? There is only ONE Church, and many man-made institutions. There is a vast difference.
Agreed, but your just beating around the bush. You knew what I meant.
quote:
quote:
No, im reading the Bible in context, which is what we are supposed to do.
I agree. I also observed that limiting a universal to only a particular context is just as wrong as taking a non-universal from a context and misapplying it with a broadness beyond its ability to cover. You did the former.
How do you figger?
quote:
quote:
HK maybe you need to learn how to read scripture contextually better or something, i see alot of mistakes.
Application of contextual rules can be just as abused as hermeneutical and exegetical rules. Now, if you have a specific in mind, then I would be glad to review it with you.
If that is how you analyze the Bible, this conversation will go nowhere quick. A contextual interpretation is far different from that.
quote:
quote:
These verses in matthew and luke are saying that God places more importance on the faith than the works (tithing), however, he says "without neglecting the others" meaning we are still to tithe 1/10.
First you accuse me of violating context, then you turn right around and to that very thing yourself! Jesus, IN CONTEXT, was addressing a people who were still under obligatyion to obedience to the Law, which included the Law of tithing. It's very convenient for you to ignore the context when it suits you, and yet you think you can turn around and accuse me of pointing out an obviou universal? Come now. Let's get real, shall we?
Yes that is the context. If Jesus didn't want us to hear it though, why is it in the Bible? Are you saying the Bible is no more than a History book? Also, why would Jesus tell them they are still under the law, when if they believe in him, they wouldnt be anymore? If he told them to not neglect tithing, ALL of us should not neglect tithing. Not just pharisees.
quote:
quote:
What makes you any different from me in God's eyes? Jews were not under obligation to obey the law anymore when Jesus walked the earth.
Is that right? What school of theology follows that line of thought? I plant my feet on pretty solid ground when stating that none of the major theological seminaries teach this, and historic Christianity, which I have studied quite extensively, certainly never taught this. So, where did you get this? You cited no authority, so I would appreciate something more than just your word. I can assure you that the New Covenant was not yet in place until Jesus said in Matt 26:27-28, "And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave {it} to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."
That's pretty self-explanatory. The New Covenant was in effect at the passing of that cup to which man's lips first touched to drink of His Blood, and the fulfillment of victory of redemption and defeat of sin and death was accomplished at His resurrection. So, where did you get your information that Jesus' birth brought an end to the Law?
Did the apostles that followed Jesus obey the law while following him? From what I've read, dont think so. Meaning, if Jews changed and followed Jesus, they wouldnt have to follow it anymore. Therefore Jews were not under obligation to obey the old law while Jesus walked the earth.
quote:
quote:
Lord, I hope you are spreading the truth about tithing, and not simply discouraging people from giving any money to God. But reading your posts has me worried that you are leading others astray now...
Well, I appreciate your concern, but the real misleading is when "pastors" and all the squirts that are called "laymen" (whatever that means) teach people that handing over to organized religion the primary portion of their giving is somehow synonymous with giving to God when they apply one red cent of that portion to the building, lawn care, chandeliers, carpeting, lines painted on the parking lot, etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseam.
HK
I agree, pastors teaching this should be re-educated or forced to stop. However, it is ok for an organized religion to use tithe money to increase the building, because by increasing the building, they are serving God, which is just another application of tithing.
To clarify on that last point. If I give 500 to my church, and 400 is used directly for thanksgiving baskets for the needy families, but 100 is used towards the building add-on my church is doing for the youth center: Is that 100 not biblically a tithe? Won't that youth center when built serve tons of kids and help bring them to christ? It IS a tithe, because the ultimate goal at heart of serving God is intact.
_____________________________
We are here on Earth, only to love one another, and bring them to Christ. Nothing else matters, so why argue about things that don't matter?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2005 11:22:34 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3471
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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Seems everyone is focused on their own view point and claiming
that it is based on scriptures. We can find scriptures to back up
any view point we come to the table with.
This is another subject that turns into another (sword) fight with
our brethren. If one is convinced that the Lord would have him
to tithe, how ironic another says that's not of God because it goes
ungainst his mindset.
Heb. 4:12 (sharper than any two-edged sword)
NOT for use to slice each other up.
I have searched the scriptures as much if not more
than any one here and I am convinced of tithing. NOT by law, but
by principle. Many of the previous posts claims anyone who does
not have the [no tithing] view is ignorant and stupid.
As Forest Gump famously says: "Stupid is as stupid does."
We're not saved by works, but without works we have no faith.
So it stems from our own world-view. Biblical/secular view.
If your god is a government, by all means send them your money.
If the LORD is your god, give as He impresses you to give.
There is only one truth and one voice of God.
The world has thousands of voices. So just study God's Word for yourself
and follow the leading of the Spirit for you. It doesn't matter what others
do. Jesus said only what He heard the Father say, and did only what He saw
the Father do, yet everyone derided
Him for His words and His actions.
I Corinthians 13
It doesn't matter if I give all my money to the poor, without love, it's meaningless.
If I know all things, without love, I am nothing.
Where does that put each of us?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2005 11:51:18 AM
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silvrstridr
Posts: 87
Joined: 7/27/2005
Status: offline
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Actually I think we are arguing because we can't clearly communicate what we think tithing actually IS. For all I know SKB and HK could be tithing biblically and just ranting about Churches using tithe money for inappropriate things (which not all Churches do). So basically, it could just be a generalization error, which is ever so common.
_____________________________
We are here on Earth, only to love one another, and bring them to Christ. Nothing else matters, so why argue about things that don't matter?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2005 12:19:03 PM
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LordComeQuickly
Posts: 14
Joined: 8/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: silvrstridr
quote:
ORIGINAL: ShouldKnowBetter
By the way....
Would you have anyone believe that God does not love those that can't give 10% of their gross income?
Or that they don't love God if they don't have a minimum 10% to give?
Never said he doesnt love you. He loves you regardless just like you said.
Maybe we should be looking at it this way: God is just. If we just do the minimum, believe in him and be saved by his grace, that's great and all, but when we get to heaven who do you think is going to have the bigger "mansion", the one who was just barely saved by grace, or the one who spent his whole life dedicated to God.
Revelation 22:12 (New International Version)
12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.
You can live your life how you want. I want to live it for God, and get this reward He speaks of. I figger, more I give to Him here, more I get when I meet Him. Including tithes.
Slvrstrdr, I agree with you on one point. I agree, because the Word tells us, that once we are saved, we will be judged by our works, and not our sins. What I disagree with is the context that you used it in. SKB's question that you replied with this was, would a person who was not able to give 10% any less than one who always gives 10%. Once again, the answer to that is in scripture.
Lu 21:1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.
Lu 21:2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.
Lu 21:3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
Lu 21:4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.
Lu 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
Lu 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Also, look in Matthew 6:1-4. Jesus is speaking on "almsgiving"...never uses the word tithe, and no amount is specified.
And Matthew 17:24-27. Jesus is speaking on "tribute money", which literally means "two drachmae, which is a technical term for the tax of half a shekel which every Jew over 20 was expected to contribute to the upkeep of the temple. Which to me sounds more like the common day definition for tithing.
I hold fast to that "If it were so, He would have told us".
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2005 12:26:17 PM
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LordComeQuickly
Posts: 14
Joined: 8/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: silvrstridr
Actually I think we are arguing because we can't clearly communicate what we think tithing actually IS. For all I know SKB and HK could be tithing biblically and just ranting about Churches using tithe money for inappropriate things (which not all Churches do). So basically, it could just be a generalization error, which is ever so common.
the point that is trying to be made is that the churches today are not "tithing biblicaly".
Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Lu 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Lu 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Lu 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Lu 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Lu 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
WOW. To me, that's pretty powerful, and says it all.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2005 12:27:10 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3471
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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Just for the record.
Everyone can afford ten percent.
God gives each of us one hundred percent of what we get.
If one gets a thousand dollars: 10 % = 100 dollars.
If one gets one dollar: 10 % = ten cents.
There's no question of ability. It's a question of doing it.
The non ability comes from living beyond our means.
I've always been like the widow. When I had next to nothing,
it was just as easy for me to give it all away.
When we have excess, then it's a matter of greed dictating to us.
Most greedy people are always greedy.
If that widow came into a lot of money, I believe she would be
just as generous.
Seems like we're back to the "heart condition."
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2005 12:32:55 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3471
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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The Pharisees trusted in themselves and despised others.
They seemed to keep the law, but no love there. So it ='ed zero.
The publican was convinced of his sin and cried for mercy and grace.
Which he received. What a lesson, amen to that.
We serve an awesome God.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2005 12:59:02 PM
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silvrstridr
Posts: 87
Joined: 7/27/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LordComeQuickly
Slvrstrdr, I agree with you on one point. I agree, because the Word tells us, that once we are saved, we will be judged by our works, and not our sins. What I disagree with is the context that you used it in. SKB's question that you replied with this was, would a person who was not able to give 10% any less than one who always gives 10%. Once again, the answer to that is in scripture.
Lu 21:1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.
Lu 21:2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.
Lu 21:3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
Lu 21:4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.
Lu 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
Lu 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Also, look in Matthew 6:1-4. Jesus is speaking on "almsgiving"...never uses the word tithe, and no amount is specified.
And Matthew 17:24-27. Jesus is speaking on "tribute money", which literally means "two drachmae, which is a technical term for the tax of half a shekel which every Jew over 20 was expected to contribute to the upkeep of the temple. Which to me sounds more like the common day definition for tithing.
I hold fast to that "If it were so, He would have told us".
In Luke 21, the widow gave more than 10%, she gave her all, and that is what God admired. Not the fact that she was in poverty.
Like carl said, EVERYONE can give 10%, there is not a sould who can't do it. The only thing getting in the way of doing it is your personal wants.
Matthew 6:1-4 is dealing with boasting when giving, and matthew 17:24-27 is dealing with taxes, not tithes.
quote:
the point that is trying to be made is that the churches today are not "tithing biblicaly".
Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Lu 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Lu 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Lu 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Lu 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Lu 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
WOW. To me, that's pretty powerful, and says it all.
Yes, SOME churches are not tithing biblically. However, mine does. This is why I am getting offended by those in this thread who call me hypocritical for tithing to "organized religion".
If you use: I hold fast to that "If it were so, He would have told us". as your argument for not tithing. I can just as equally say "If it weren't so, then He would have told us"
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We are here on Earth, only to love one another, and bring them to Christ. Nothing else matters, so why argue about things that don't matter?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2005 1:07:17 PM
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shouldknowbetter
Posts: 329
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: carlkeigley
Just for the record.
Everyone can afford ten percent.
God gives each of us one hundred percent of what we get.
If one gets a thousand dollars: 10 % = 100 dollars.
If one gets one dollar: 10 % = ten cents.
There's no question of ability. It's a question of doing it.
The non ability comes from living beyond our means.
I've always been like the widow. When I had next to nothing,
it was just as easy for me to give it all away.
When we have excess, then it's a matter of greed dictating to us.
Most greedy people are always greedy.
If that widow came into a lot of money, I believe she would be
just as generous.
Seems like we're back to the "heart condition."
No offense Carl , I know you mean well and you actually believe this stuff...
But what you just said by implication was that anyone that does not tithe (per your definition) is greedy and/or living beyond thier means. That there is no other reason, period. Stop and think about that...
The scriptures tell me that people who tithe and attempt obedience can be just as off base. Because the motive, the heart that drive the actions is corrupt already. It matters little if the person is a tither or non-tither, the heart is the judge.
Like the ones you refer to about the Pharisees... They did not love God, they trusted in their own works and tithe was usuually one of the principles they fell back on.
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Seek Wisdom from God in prayer and scripture
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2005 1:42:40 PM
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caur
Posts: 230
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Remember that John said in I John 4:1, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
Did that and that is why I tithe. Read earlier post please, I was clear on why I tithe. It is not a topic that is up for debate in my life. I care not one tiny little eeeeentsy weeeeentsy bit if you tithe or not. My problem with the whole topic is the attempts of some few here on this board to sway the faithful into believing that tithing is an ungodly act and is false doctrine. That is absolute hogwash. The word "tithe" itself means "tenth" but there were many tithes if one were to keep the Law as the pharisees did. I just love how folks come and say that we live by Grace and are not to obey the law. God says we will obey because He is in our hearts. The written code says not to murder, the Holy Spirit says not to hate. Get the point? I pay God regularly, not because the Bible tells me to but because the Holy Spirit tells me to, proven and tested.
I will not stand and let someone just go unchallenged when they are seeking to rob folks of the blessings they get from giving to God. If anything, you should be encouraging your brothers and sisters to give God MORE, not less, and for EVERY reason, not some list that you have produced in your own limited understanding.
I don't mind being challenged. I don't mind sharing what the Lord has told me and shown me. After all, we are to teach one another. I am not telling people to give a "tenth" and a "tenth" and a "tenth". I am saying to my brothers and sisters that God is pleased when we honor Him by giving, especially if it HURTS us to do so. Remember Christ's comments about the widow who gave every cent? Your "teachings" are false because they are the OPPOSITE of this. At least the principle of tithing is supported by God and comes with a PROMISE. It would be wise for my brothers and sisters to test the principle of tithing, or giving, if you will since the technical meaning of tithe misses the mark because of your pollution of its use in supporting the principle. Giving is what we are made to do. We are only on this earth for such a short time.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2005 2:50:14 PM
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silvrstridr
Posts: 87
Joined: 7/27/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
No offense Carl , I know you mean well and you actually believe this stuff...
But what you just said by implication was that anyone that does not tithe (per your definition) is greedy and/or living beyond thier means. That there is no other reason, period. Stop and think about that...
The scriptures tell me that people who tithe and attempt obedience can be just as off base. Because the motive, the heart that drive the actions is corrupt already. It matters little if the person is a tither or non-tither, the heart is the judge.
Like the ones you refer to about the Pharisees... They did not love God, they trusted in their own works and tithe was usuually one of the principles they fell back on.
The problem is, if your heart is true to God, it will show in your actions. If you don't give "God what is God's and give Caesar what is Caesar's", you are witholding and being greedy and selfish.
Yes people who tithe can be off base, that is why, if your heart is not right with God you should not tithe. Please SKB, if your heart is not right, do not tithe. Like scripture says, what do you think God is thinking when you mumble up to him "ahh here God, take your money, I coulda used it for something else". He'd rather you not give it if you cant give it cheerfully.
I fear how you casually refer to scripture as "this stuff"....
quote:
ORIGINAL: caur
quote:
Remember that John said in I John 4:1, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
Did that and that is why I tithe. Read earlier post please, I was clear on why I tithe. It is not a topic that is up for debate in my life. I care not one tiny little eeeeentsy weeeeentsy bit if you tithe or not. My problem with the whole topic is the attempts of some few here on this board to sway the faithful into believing that tithing is an ungodly act and is false doctrine. That is absolute hogwash. The word "tithe" itself means "tenth" but there were many tithes if one were to keep the Law as the pharisees did. I just love how folks come and say that we live by Grace and are not to obey the law. God says we will obey because He is in our hearts. The written code says not to murder, the Holy Spirit says not to hate. Get the point? I pay God regularly, not because the Bible tells me to but because the Holy Spirit tells me to, proven and tested.
I will not stand and let someone just go unchallenged when they are seeking to rob folks of the blessings they get from giving to God. If anything, you should be encouraging your brothers and sisters to give God MORE, not less, and for EVERY reason, not some list that you have produced in your own limited understanding.
I don't mind being challenged. I don't mind sharing what the Lord has told me and shown me. After all, we are to teach one another. I am not telling people to give a "tenth" and a "tenth" and a "tenth". I am saying to my brothers and sisters that God is pleased when we honor Him by giving, especially if it HURTS us to do so. Remember Christ's comments about the widow who gave every cent? Your "teachings" are false because they are the OPPOSITE of this. At least the principle of tithing is supported by God and comes with a PROMISE. It would be wise for my brothers and sisters to test the principle of tithing, or giving, if you will since the technical meaning of tithe misses the mark because of your pollution of its use in supporting the principle. Giving is what we are made to do. We are only on this earth for such a short time.
And I'm fully on your side caur.
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We are here on Earth, only to love one another, and bring them to Christ. Nothing else matters, so why argue about things that don't matter?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2005 3:02:39 PM
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shouldknowbetter
Posts: 329
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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I guess I better repeat it again....
No one here anti-tithe stance is trying to tell people not to give.
At no time have I expressed the thinking that we should give less or give nothing. NEVER....
All that discernment and rhetoric is coming form the pro-tithe side of this conversation. It is wrongly interjected and mis-applied.
REPEAT.... THIS IS NOT ABOUT GIVING LESS, BEING GREEDY, ETC.....
It is a plee to follow scripture and test everything, study to understand what it is we are doing and why...
My position is that most pro-tithe supporters are pro-tithe for the wrong reasons, that God in scripture points out what a tithe is and is used for. That what we "CALL" a tithe today is not what God calls a tithe. If anything that point has been clearly supported with the scriptures both OT and NT.
I believe that tithes are valid today, that God has instituted a system very similar for us today. That giving to God offerings, has always been free will and over and above the tithe.
This forum is to bring up a subject and reason it out just as was done and recorded in NT scriptures. If you can't reason it out then perhaps you should abstain...
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2005 4:18:32 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3471
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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******No offense taken********
I am secure in what I know.
The problem with most of the debates on this forum site is no one
is listening to the others.
This continues to be an argument over tithing.
That is a term that came from I don't know where.
The teaching and principle is "first fruits" or "first born".
You keep saying you are not against tithing, but the observation I
get from the rhetoric is that you are anti-organized churches.
You don't intend to tell anyone to NOT give or tithe, but what always
happens is that someone who has a weak conscience and looking for
an excuse not to follow their conscience will take this rhetoric and run
with it.
We had a deacon that tried to teach tithing and it really became a mess.
The book he used for his information was completely out in left field.
People in the church used that as an excuse to quit giving even though
he was teaching to tithe.
As said before, perhaps we all have challenged communication skills.
When I teach and preach, I do my best to understand what is being heard
by the parishoners as well as to what I am trying to say.
Just as what I posted was misread reading into it what I didn't say.
If people don't tithe, doesn't mean they are greedy.
But on the other side, greedy people won't give.
I was just trying to show that God gives everyone (10) tithes (tenths). 100%
So we all receive 100% of what we get.
So everyone has 10% to give if they want to.
But if we get into debt beyond the 100%, which many americans have, then we
feel we can't give.
The principle is "first fruits". So those who want to tithe, give the "first" 1/10.
You can give a tenth and still not be giving the firstfruit.
In debating classes you may have heard that the one that brings the biggest
books and the most rhetoric win the debate. Doesn't mean they are right, they
just win the debate. Ain't that a kicker.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2005 4:23:25 PM
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LordComeQuickly
Posts: 14
Joined: 8/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: caur
I will not stand and let someone just go unchallenged when they are seeking to rob folks of the blessings they get from giving to God. If anything, you should be encouraging your brothers and sisters to give God MORE, not less, and for EVERY reason, not some list that you have produced in your own limited understanding.
I don't mind being challenged. I don't mind sharing what the Lord has told me and shown me. After all, we are to teach one another. I am not telling people to give a "tenth" and a "tenth" and a "tenth". I am saying to my brothers and sisters that God is pleased when we honor Him by giving, especially if it HURTS us to do so. Remember Christ's comments about the widow who gave every cent? Your "teachings" are false because they are the OPPOSITE of this. At least the principle of tithing is supported by God and comes with a PROMISE. It would be wise for my brothers and sisters to test the principle of tithing, or giving, if you will since the technical meaning of tithe misses the mark because of your pollution of its use in supporting the principle. Giving is what we are made to do. We are only on this earth for such a short time.
I would never discourage anyone from giving to God. The bible is very clear on how and why we are to give. I never implied, even once, that I planned on keeping all of my earnings for myself, or that giving was ungodly. For all I know, the Lord may lead me to give even more than I was when I just set aside 10%.
The reason I mentioned the scripture on temple tax is because that is how today's 'tithing principal' is more applied. I would respect the church more if they said, hey, we need help for the keeping of the building. I am not saying I would never contribute to that. But to label that 'tithing', which departs from it's original definition, and to accuse someone of not 'giving to God', or not living a life dedicated to God, or being greedy, or any of the other judgements you have made based on the fact that I may feel lead to give directly to the missionaries, homeless, and poor, is absolutely absurd.
If you have a garden, and are not giving your first-fruits, then you are not tithing biblically.
If you grow herbs, and do not give 10% of those, you are not tithing biblically.
It is obvious in scripture that Jesus is pleased by those who give with a glad heart, and do it out of their love for one another, (which is what I plan to do), and clearly is not impressed with the hearts of the Pharisees who felt justified in themselves because they tithed.
And I do believe that we have been taught falsely on this matter. (I am curious how some of you would defend worshipping on Sunday instead of the Sabbath, by the way. )
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2005 4:47:54 PM
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silvrstridr
Posts: 87
Joined: 7/27/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LordComeQuickly
quote:
ORIGINAL: caur
I will not stand and let someone just go unchallenged when they are seeking to rob folks of the blessings they get from giving to God. If anything, you should be encouraging your brothers and sisters to give God MORE, not less, and for EVERY reason, not some list that you have produced in your own limited understanding.
I don't mind being challenged. I don't mind sharing what the Lord has told me and shown me. After all, we are to teach one another. I am not telling people to give a "tenth" and a "tenth" and a "tenth". I am saying to my brothers and sisters that God is pleased when we honor Him by giving, especially if it HURTS us to do so. Remember Christ's comments about the widow who gave every cent? Your "teachings" are false because they are the OPPOSITE of this. At least the principle of tithing is supported by God and comes with a PROMISE. It would be wise for my brothers and sisters to test the principle of tithing, or giving, if you will since the technical meaning of tithe misses the mark because of your pollution of its use in supporting the principle. Giving is what we are made to do. We are only on this earth for such a short time.
I would never discourage anyone from giving to God. The bible is very clear on how and why we are to give. I never implied, even once, that I planned on keeping all of my earnings for myself, or that giving was ungodly. For all I know, the Lord may lead me to give even more than I was when I just set aside 10%.
The reason I mentioned the scripture on temple tax is because that is how today's 'tithing principal' is more applied. I would respect the church more if they said, hey, we need help for the keeping of the building. I am not saying I would never contribute to that. But to label that 'tithing', which departs from it's original definition, and to accuse someone of not 'giving to God', or not living a life dedicated to God, or being greedy, or any of the other judgements you have made based on the fact that I may feel lead to give directly to the missionaries, homeless, and poor, is absolutely absurd.
If you have a garden, and are not giving your first-fruits, then you are not tithing biblically.
If you grow herbs, and do not give 10% of those, you are not tithing biblically.
It is obvious in scripture that Jesus is pleased by those who give with a glad heart, and do it out of their love for one another, (which is what I plan to do), and clearly is not impressed with the hearts of the Pharisees who felt justified in themselves because they tithed.
And I do believe that we have b | | |
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