RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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jbbaab44 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/21/2008 1:07:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W
De 22:8
When you build a new house, make a parapet around your roof so that you may not bring the guilt of bloodshed on your house if someone falls from the roof.


This is a law. Do any of you who don't believe the law is for us today believe it's wrong for me to teach the above passage in both it's practical and spiritural terms?

If I do would you ask me if it's a requirement?

If I teach and obey the above law must I also teach all the other laws?

_________

If I teach the above passage would it cause you to set up a website dedicated to saying it was wrong to obey that principle?

Would you spend thousands of hours of your life telling people how wrong I and the Chruches I attend who teach the above principle is wrong and how much damage we cause?


if you preach standards in giving and if you "encourage" others to achieve 10% giving, then i have nothing wrong with that. I've been very clear with that on many occasions.

If you encourage others to build a parapet around their house, then i've got nothing wrong with that either.

There is no guaranteed spiritual blessing for meeting these OT requirements, nor is there a spiritual curse for not meeting them. As you know, the pharisees were were called vipers and fools even though they were very good at tithing, building parapets, and eating the right things.

if you want to go on a biblical diet because you think God had good reasons behind it, then fine, by all means go for it. That is the liberty you have. I would agree that a minimum 10% enforcement has good reasons as well. But these reasons have no authority over the Holy Spirit's instructions. You have no right to say that God condemns those who do not follow those laws. I will agree that tithing can be a good goal, just as much as i think that the biblical diet is a good goal, but by no means is anyone tied to the tithe or a biblical diet as their minimum service.

My website is to expose people who do not believe that the Spirit is authoritative instructor for giving. If you believe the Spirit of God or your conscience is calling you to give a 10% minimum of your income to your local church, because of what you've read in scripture, then as i said before- this is the liberty you have. But your personal convictions are not absolutes for others.



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/21/2008 1:21:08 PM)

quote:

.If he does not than I want to be able to go to any church in the world but most especially here in America,and not be singled out as a God robber.

I'm very frustrated concerning this issue,because it separates me from the sweet fellowship of my brothers in Christ.I'm saddened that we can't have consensus on this subject.

I know we as a body don't have consensus on many doctrines,but this one hits closer to home for me,because it affects my fellowship with the Saints.It affects how they receive me,and it keeps me at an uncomfortable distance from them.


I believe I asked you this before. Why in the world are you going to the chruch you go to if "you" disagree with the way they view you, you view them and you don't agree with a doctrine they teach so much that it effects your everyday life?

Why are "you" doing this?

There are many groups who are Christians. I meet with groups that I can unite with fully. Do I have to compromise on some issues? Of course. But they are not so big that I spend a year or more of my life fretting over it. (I don't think I would even visit your chruch much less put myself in it - God does not call us to change an entire groups beliefs)

Am I being hard on you?

Yes I am.

You are allowing the tithe to be a stumbling block in your own life. It's not other people's fault that you stumble over this.



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/21/2008 1:23:05 PM)

quote:

My website is to expose people who do not believe that the Spirit is authoritative instructor for giving


Oh I will say it out loud.

I believe the Bible is our Final authority in faith and life. “sola Scriptura”



jbbaab44 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/21/2008 1:27:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

quote:

My website is to expose people who do not believe that the Spirit is authoritative instructor


Oh I will say it out loud.

I believe the Bible is our Final authority in faith and life.

Show me the scripture that tells you how much offering above the tithe you should give this Sunday.



sunofone -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/21/2008 1:30:25 PM)

quote:

You are allowing the tithe to be a stumbling block in your own life. It's not other people's fault that you stumble over this.
I don't follow you on this one.



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/21/2008 1:31:41 PM)

You want to blame others for your distress. The truth is you bring this upon yourself.



jbbaab44 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/21/2008 1:32:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunofone

quote:

You are allowing the tithe to be a stumbling block in your own life. It's not other people's fault that you stumble over this.
I don't follow you on this one.

The Tithing minimum is a stumbling block because "A": it appeases the conscience of those who can afford more, and "B": it hurts the poor and their families because they can't afford it.



sunofone -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/21/2008 2:32:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

You want to blame others for your distress. The truth is you bring this upon yourself.

How is it I bring distress upon myself?Is it because I fellowship with those who do tithe while I do not?I have no problem with people who choose to tithe,my problem is with those who judge me because I don't.

This is not just true of my church,but of any church I know of.I can't even listen to my local Christian radio broadcast when speakers are on because of this.

I've not tried to convince anyone in my church or anywhere else to not tithe.I've only asked for fair honest discussion about whether God is requiring me to tithe.

The stumbling block is not tithing,it's the attitude tithers have against non tithers.Not everyone to a man,just by and large and in the case of every church I've been apart of which total four over the past 30 yrs,and two church changes involved my moving to a different state/city.

Could I find a church that does not teach tithing in my area.I suppose if I tried hard enough.I do find it would be a tall task to do so living in the rural south.

I don't I should have to do so though.I don't think I should have to agree with everything a Pastor believes before I can commit myself to membership there.



prophet -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/21/2008 8:30:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Strider33

I believe in cheerful giving. However, my local church uses the phrase "tithes and offerings". Is it your position that anyone who uses the term "tithe" is falling into some form of legalism?


Tithing ia a word loosely used in todays church. Ironically pastors like to use Mal to substantiate tithing. Theologically when tithe is used, it does connect it to OT law.

So pastors are actually abusing Mal when they are preaching tithe.



prophet -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/21/2008 8:39:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophet

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

quote:

If you preach tithe, you have to preach the other 613 commandments......this is the whole law.



Anyone here teaching the tithe law?

Nope.


Good, then you should stop using Mal 3 to teach NT about tithing. Theres no tithing in NT [;)]

Just curious: Are you of the opinion that the God in Malachi passed away before the book of Matthew was written or did He no longer expects anything out of His people - that all the disappointment and anger of God in Malachi was just a moment of capricious angst?


If you think whatevers written is to be practiced by all in all times, Then you should practice the whole OT law of 613 commandments. A good start would be circumcision? [;)]

BTW in Mal, Gods disappointment is in the priesthood whom He has appointed to teach the laws to the people and yet they are the ones who broke them! Its a good study....



prophet -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/21/2008 8:42:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophet
In the NT, theres no tithes, only cheerful giving and making sure no one in your ekklesia is lacking, including the pastors, etc

Again with the cheerful. I'm not sure why you chose to call yourself prophet, but mood is not a principle of righteousness or relationship with God in the NT. No, Jesus and God's grace are the sole factors in one's righteousness and relationship with God in the NT - those are not tied to your mood or feelings or emotions, else most of us would be doomed.


i didnt write that. God DID!

quote:

Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.


AND i am cheerful beacuse by His grace, i can always face tommorow! Halleluyah!

Does my nick offend you?



prophet -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/21/2008 8:45:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W
...If I teach the above passage would it cause you to set up a website dedicated to saying it was wrong to obey that principle?

Would you spend thousands of hours of your life telling people how wrong I and the Chruches I attend who teach the above principle is wrong and how much damage we cause?

Thanks for mentioning that. I've wondered too why someone would seemingly dedicate their life and resources to addressing something that fewer than 3% of all believers even practice. It's like an Osteenian approach - avoid the hard stuff and attack the thing that nobody does. Aren't there any serious challenges worth sticking one's neck out to attack that actually endanger believers' lives?[&:]


WHY? Because Truth matters and manya pastors are fleecing the sheep by preacing lies.

What are you doing here, wasting time? [:D]



prophet -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/21/2008 8:47:44 PM)

quote:

I'm not objecting to cheerfulness but to its misapplication.


Same can be said of tithing according to OT law.



prophet -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/21/2008 8:50:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

...as the Lord has prospered me.

Even when I didn't believe in tithing as having anything to do with me, I always considered it the fairest way to insure a person gave "as the Lord has prospered" them. A tenth of a dollar for the young is a dime. A tenth of $100,000 for the well-to-do is $10,000. But, as the Lord has prospered them, it's still the same relative amount.

Practically speaking, if I can't give 10% of a dollar, I would still find reason not to be able to give 10% of $100,000 or even $1,000,000.


[sm=thumbsup.gif]



prophet -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/21/2008 8:53:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jbbaab44


if you preach standards in giving and if you "encourage" others to achieve 10% giving, then i have nothing wrong with that. I've been very clear with that on many occasions.

If you encourage others to build a parapet around their house, then i've got nothing wrong with that either.

There is no guaranteed spiritual blessing for meeting these OT requirements, nor is there a spiritual curse for not meeting them. As you know, the pharisees were were called vipers and fools even though they were very good at tithing, building parapets, and eating the right things.

if you want to go on a biblical diet because you think God had good reasons behind it, then fine, by all means go for it. That is the liberty you have. I would agree that a minimum 10% enforcement has good reasons as well. But these reasons have no authority over the Holy Spirit's instructions. You have no right to say that God condemns those who do not follow those laws. I will agree that tithing can be a good goal, just as much as i think that the biblical diet is a good goal, but by no means is anyone tied to the tithe or a biblical diet as their minimum service.

My website is to expose people who do not believe that the Spirit is authoritative instructor for giving. If you believe the Spirit of God or your conscience is calling you to give a 10% minimum of your income to your local church, because of what you've read in scripture, then as i said before- this is the liberty you have. But your personal convictions are not absolutes for others.


[sm=thumbsup.gif]

Spirit of Liberty!



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/22/2008 7:32:31 AM)

quote:

I've only asked for fair honest discussion about whether God is requiring me to tithe.


God requires that you love him with all your heart, soul and mind.

God requires that you love your neighbor as yourself. (for a defination of who your neighbor is read the story of the good Samaritan. Realize when you read it that the Jewish Rabbis were "teaching" that Samaritans were enemies to God and it was OK to hate those people)

Now all I have heard from you is complaining about your church, it's people, the pastors, and now your local radio station concerning something as "minor" as the tithe.

Let me ask you something.

What programs for missions, evangelism, outreach and ministry is your chruch involved in? (what does your church do to reach and minister to itself, the community and the world at large - within the saved community and to the lost world)



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/22/2008 7:42:57 AM)

Why is it talking you so long to respond. The question is an easy one? I see that you logged on and are reading this thread?



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/22/2008 8:03:30 AM)

quote:

God requires that you love him with all your heart, soul and mind.

God requires that you love your neighbor as yourself.


OK so you left. I am not going to play games with you concerning what I am seeing here.

You remind me of the Pharasees who focused on the tithe and allowed the more important matters of the law to go unattended.

If your chruch is NOT active in the areas I asked you about why don't you spend lots of time complaining about that? Asking for help in trying to encourage your members/leaders/community/radio station to be active in those "important" matters?

If your chruch IS active in these areas why dosen't your heart "that is required to love God and man" so very much ache to give even more to help these people come to know Christ and to help minister to their physical needs?

Why do you not "long" for these things and stay focused on these thing? Why has "money" become a stumbling block for you as it was for the Pharasees? Why do you strain out a gnat but swallow a camel?

If you truly love God and People you will view your money (all of it) as nothing more than a tool to accomplish God's will.

quote:

I just believe that what God wants from me now is a 100% awareness and attitude.


I agree. Even a child is known by their actions whether their conduct is pure and right.

James 2

14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. 20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.



oneamazingwife -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/22/2008 8:11:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: christiancapitalist

i tithe for several reasons.

1. i believe in my church.
-on a regular basis, i'm seeing lives changed, marriages renewed, people being healed. my church is bearing good fruit. how can i not support it?

2. i believe it is for the new testament church
-when i study the old testament, and the transition to the new testament, i've noticed a trend. any standard that was put into place in the old testament is usually made more tasking on the individual in the new. for example, in the old testament, i can't kill my brother. in the new, i have to love him. in the old testament, i couldn't commit adultery. in the new, i can't lust with my eyes. why should the amount i give be less in the new testament? i believe as well, in matt 22:21, where jesus says to render unto God the things that are God's, he is refering to the tithe.

3. blessing has followed the tithe.
-in my life, i have never been without. in fact, i've been blessed financially on many occasions. mal 3:8-10. is it old testament? yes. but why wouldn't it apply to me today?

some will disagree with me, but i believe that the tithe is only the beginning. to me, it is nothing. i want to be in a postion to some day give away 90% of what i make. i want to give freely to those in need. i want to support my church in spreading the gospel of jesus christ. in our world, pornography is a 10 billion dollar a year industry (forbes magazine), christians are still bickering over whether or not we should tithe. as a great pastor put it, "the church is the hope of the world, and it's future lies in the hands of it's leaders". i give my tithe to my church so one less person will go to hell. that is reason enough for me.


This hits it right on the head for me!



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/22/2008 8:13:49 AM)

Thanks for pulling it up. It's a good post isn't it. You can see the "heart" of a person who loves God and people.

This last sentence is a real homerun.

"i give my tithe to my church so one less person will go to hell. that is reason enough for me. "

Lu 16:13
"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."



Strider33 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/22/2008 8:47:10 AM)

quote:

Even when I didn't believe in tithing as having anything to do with me, I always considered it the fairest way to insure a person gave "as the Lord has prospered" them. A tenth of a dollar for the young is a dime. A tenth of $100,000 for the well-to-do is $10,000. But, as the Lord has prospered them, it's still the same relative amount.

Practically speaking, if I can't give 10% of a dollar, I would still find reason not to be able to give 10% of $100,000 or even $1,000,000.


Agreed.

In practice, I've found that the poor are more willing to give percentagewise than the well off, to causes that they believe in. This includes not only giving money to the church, but also generosity to other people in their lives.



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/22/2008 8:54:30 AM)

quote:

Not all those who wander are lost.


I like that little saying/poem so much that I had it inscribed in my son's yearbook.

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

quote:

to causes that they believe in.


Bingo



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/22/2008 9:06:54 AM)

quote:

It came as a great and pleasant surprise to me to find out that JRR Tollkien was a life long Christian, and even instrumental in leading CS Lewis to the lord!


I didn't know that.

I didn't even realize the poem came from the LOTR until I did an internet search to find it.

I read it somewhere in a magazine and cut it out. For me it carried with it alot of biblical wisdom that the world is often blind to.



Strider33 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/22/2008 9:58:30 AM)

quote:

"i give my tithe to my church so one less person will go to hell. that is reason enough for me. "


This reminds me of something I heard a pastor in Mexico say once to his flock. This was in my first short term mission. The following is a rough translation, as best as I remember it.

quote:

If I were to take all the money I had ever made in my life, and put it all into one outreach mission, and if, at the end of the mission, only one person had been saved, I would consider it money well spent.


I liked this so much that I asked the pastor if he would pause long enough to let me interpret this for the rest of my mission team, most of whom spoke little, if any, Spanish. As I recollect it, my translation was a little more accurate than my memory is now.

I don't know, but it's an educated guess that this particular pastor was unsalaried, and that he supported his families needs from his day job. I'm not repeating this as a subtle way of saying that your local church ought to operate the same way. What I do mean to share with you all is that there are plenty of churches around the world where the giving level is so far above 10% that this entire discussion is laughable.

Most of the participants in this discussion who have mentioned the 10% level as biblical and not optional have also stated that they consider 10% a minimum, so my point is not particularly directed to them.

In Mexico, and in other countries in the third world, there are churches where most of the contributions are in the form of labor, such as church construction, and not in money form. I expect that no one in this forum has a problem with donations in kind. But I could be surprised.

Edited to correct spelling errors.



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/22/2008 10:07:47 AM)

quote:

In Mexico, and in other countries in the third world, there are churches where most of the contributions are in the form of labor, such as church construction, and not in money form. I expect that no one in this forum has a problem with donations in kind.




We have a man in my old church who is/was dirt poor. He was homeless (ex drug addict and con - been in and out of prison until his conversion a few years ago) and the chruch gave him a place to live. He did so much work at the chruch and for the widows in the chruch/community that the people felt an obligation to not only provide for him this free place to live but now he is a salary worker for the chruch. He is the Chruch handy man. When a widow at the chruch breaks her hip and needs ramps to get into her home they send John to build her one. When a widow has a roof leak the Chruch sends John to repair it for them. When lightening hit the Chruch it was John who immediately began working to repair the damage. When a tree falls in a widow's yard it's John there without even being asked cleaning up the mess. He did what came natural to him. He was giving God and others the very best he had to give.

Part of the tithe people give to that chruch go to pay for John a place to live, food to eat and medical expenses so that he can give all his time to being the hands and feet of Christ to that community.



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