RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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JimboFletch -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (9/8/2008 3:38:11 PM)

"Tithe" means "ten percent." Whether or not I'm convicted that it is a mandate, a good idea, or something to do with "my extra cash," if it's ten percent of my gross income, it's a tithe.

"Giving," OTH, is what you do with something totally yours. And since God has given me 100% of all my income - and any good thing - I cannot truly be said to be giving Him money. I can return a portion, I can worship Him for the provisions He's provided with some of it, or I can allow my local fellowship to share in the blessings God has provided to bless others.

But in order to truly "give" God money, I would have to give Him more than He has provided. Kinda difficult to do, isn't it?



Annie64 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (9/12/2008 2:48:40 AM)

Great post, Jimbo! [:D]



dwinell -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (9/28/2008 1:28:42 PM)

Okay Heres my take on this oservation. The tithe is by no means a mainstay in the believer's walk. It has, by some, been perverted in order that they may continue the systematic enslavement of persons; who, without theire knowledge, have been coerced into thinking that if they do not take 10% of their income to provide a means for their lo
cal assembly or better yet their local Pastor, they will somehow be infected with this curse which is completely ludacris.
There is no biblical backing for this doctrine. Atleast not in the New Testament. The only thing that believers are suggested to do is to give.
whatever it may be, whetheer time, money, clothes, etc. And by no means will there be any type of curse placed upon you if you do not have the money to give.
It is not te character of God to place harm on his children, God is love, yes there is tough love, because whom God loves he does Chastize.
The notion of tithing is the result of The Mosaic Law placed upon the Children of Israel. Why? Because at the distribution of the Promised Land to the Tribes of Israel, each Tribe was given a protion of land in which to produce food, clothing, etc. Except one, the tribe of Levi, which where given the service of the Temple, which ment they had no land to till, in order to produce harvest, so the tithe was given in order to support the one in the service to the temple after each sacrifice was made. (jos:13:1 - 19:51)
Moreover the NT discusses what true believers are to do with their possessions (acts2:43-47, Icor.9:6-8)
There jave been many perversions of scripture,this is why it's important for eacj believer to have their own personal relationship with God and study to show oneself approved.
Hosea 4:6 "my peopl are destroyed for a lack of knowledge"



Annie64 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (9/29/2008 3:35:56 AM)

I don't mind my tithes going to support my local pastor, and don't feel enslaved because they do. Nor does it mean that my pastor is greedy. He isn't! He is entitled to an income, too. You mentioned that the Levites didn't have their own land to till, so they were dependent on tithes for their living. My pastor doesn't have any other household income, and gives himself fully to the church. It is right that he be paid, and how else is he going to be paid, except through the offerings given to the church? And if there weren't at least some people who felt that tithing were important, there wouldn't be money to pay him.

I know that there is legitimate argument against tithing being a mandate. Okay. But that doesn't mean it isn't worth doing. I don't think I've heard it preached that we are cursed if we don't practice it. But I have definitely heard it preached that we are blessed if we do. And, if we tithe because we love the Lord, and not just to get a blessing or because we feel like we have a ball and chain around us, making us do it, I believe we really will be blessed if we do it.

I also tithe because I love my church, and don't want to be part of the problem if the church doesn't have enough money.



d4nnyb0y02 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (10/13/2008 1:10:06 PM)

I will say that I am a strong supporter of the tithe. A tithe means a tenth, and I believe we should give *at least* a tenth as we are commanded, and yes I believe it is a command. I also believe it is a blessing that we are missing out on if we do not respond to the call to tithe. Now, there was a time in my past when in ignorance I did not tithe... but now I have come to the understanding of why we should do it (because we are told to and because we are blessed for doing so).

1. The tithe precedes the law -- Abraham gave a tithe of his income BEFORE THE LAW came to Moses. It was neither established nor abolished by the law.

2. If I don't tithe, it isn't that I'm failing to give... but the truth is that if I don't tithe, I am *robbing* God.

Malachi 3:8-11

Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

***NOTE*** This is the only place that I have found in God's Word where He actually asks us to "prove" or "test" Him on a matter. He will bless us with GREATER blessing by tithing, than had we not tithed.

3. Jesus approves of the tithe.

Matthew 23:23

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

***NOTE*** Jesus did not rebuke them for tithing... but on the contrary, told them that they should not have left the tithe undone. Jesus was rebuking them for neglecting the weightier more important matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith. Jesus tells them they should not leave tithing undone--that is, they did well (right) to tithe.

-------------

Is the tithe (giving a tenth of all we make) mandated? Yes, and it is something every Christian should do. If we aren't doing it... we are sinning (not acting perfect, or missing the mark), just as I was before I began to tithe rightly.



Soxfan -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (10/13/2008 5:58:41 PM)

I have some questions for pro-tithers. I would greatly appreciate your responses:

1. When considering the principles that we should convert from the OT laws into NT giving principles, how was it determined that the percentage is the only part of the law that is relevant? In other words, why is the exact percentage obeyed and not the exact product or exact purpose?

2. Why don’t we celebrate a feast of tithes?

3. Why did they give food and we give monetary?
Although money existed before tithing, the original source of God's "tithe" was never money. It was the “tithe of food.” This is very important: True biblical tithes were always only food from the farms and herds of only Israelites who only lived inside God’s Holy Land, the national boundary of Israel. The increase was gathered from what God produced and not from man's craft or ability.

There are 15 verses from 11 chapters and 8 books from Leviticus 27 to Luke 11 which describe the contents of the tithe. And the contents never, never included money, silver, gold or anything other than food from inside Israel!

3. Why is it recorded that Abraham gave 10% of his war spoils and not of his firstfruits and increase at that time?

4. Why did Abraham give 10% of his war spoils when the Israelites were required only to give 1% of war spoils.

5. The tithe was used to support civil and governmental duties, so why are we required to tithe before our civil and governmental taxes are taken out?

6. In Malachi 3, because specific portions of offerings were required as well, Israel robbed God not only of tithes but also offerings. So why are offerings freewill for us?

7. Why should we tithe before our freewill offering? Can’t I just give freely before I’m tithed? He is the same yesterday, today and forever. Why did we partially change how and what we give? If our change is justified, then what made him change?

I have yet to see a pro-tither provide NT Scripture that:

1. Directly commands NT believers to tithe
2. Outlines the consequences of not tithing



SavedByGraceMD -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (10/13/2008 6:58:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soxfan


I have yet to see a pro-tither provide NT Scripture that:

1. Directly commands NT believers to tithe
2. Outlines the consequences of not tithing

Why is it that we need a NT scripture. Isn't God the same yesterday, today and forever?

If it was commanded for the children of Israel to do, why would it not be so for the church?

I don't know of a consequence other than not receiving the blessings God promised, and avoiding disobeying Him.



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 8:38:31 AM)

quote:

Why is it that we need a NT scripture. Isn't God the same yesterday, today and forever?


Wonderful question.

I wonder if Soxfan also tells people to ignore God's other laws, principles and precepts not "directly commanded" in the NT.

I feel sorry for people who don't believe the OT is something relevant for the life of a believer. I believe they fall into many traps and end up suffering for doing so. I believe their family often suffers as well.

I know that when I teach Biblical Financial courses MOST of what I teach is found "only" in the OT. There are NO "direct NT commands" to believers but I see them suffer over and over again for their arrogance towards God's instructions found in the OT.

God tells us that "all scripture" .... not just the NT is for believers to help teach us what is right, what is wrong, how to get on God's right path and how to stay on God's right path.

Why do some believer demand of God a NT demand before they will do something with it's clearly spelled out in the OT that it's something that is pleasing to Him?

Why do they more times than not pick out only the tithe principle to ingore when it comes to how to handle God's resources but will "cling" to other OT money principles?



JimboFletch -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 9:09:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soxfan
1. When considering the principles that we should convert from the OT laws into NT giving principles, how was it determined that the percentage is the only part of the law that is relevant? In other words, why is the exact percentage obeyed and not the exact product or exact purpose?

You apparently don't understand the difference between a principle and a Law. And to tithers, 10% is the STARTING point, not the quitting point.

quote:


I have yet to see a pro-tither provide NT Scripture that:

1. Directly commands NT believers to tithe
2. Outlines the consequences of not tithing

1. Why, shucks, Sox, it ain't a principle if you have a law, now is it?
2. Malachi - unless you think God's character and expectations lowered in the NT. If you do, then read the Sermon on the Mount - where the bar was actually raised considerably.

Don't sweat it though, you are safey in the majority. Stats show that 97% of professing believers give only about 2.5% to 3.5% of their income to ALL charitable causes, including church or religious causes. There doesn't seem to be ANY guideline for them except, "What ever floats their boat."



IMA_CHRISTIAN -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 9:11:33 AM)

Did Jesus and the Disciples ever tithe?

I cant find anywhere they tithed.



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 9:23:22 AM)

Yes Jesus tithed. Many things are not recorded for us in scripture concerning things Jesus and his disciples did.

If you know much about Jewish history you would know that no one was allowed to speak at the temple who did not tithe. Jesus, his disciples, Paul and most all the others spoke in the temple. Therefore to be able to do this they also tithed. No Jewish leader would have allowed them to speak had they violated God's law concerning the tithe.

Paul also said in one of his books that he obeyed the OT laws and the temple laws and tithing would have been one of the laws that if he didn't obey no one would have listened to him.

Acts 25
8 Then Paul made his defense: "I have done nothing wrong against the law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar."

We do have recorded that Jesus and the disciples paid the temple tax.

Remember Jesus never broke an OT law. He was "without sin".



JimboFletch -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 9:30:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN

Did Jesus and the Disciples ever tithe?

I cant find anywhere they tithed.

It would have been strange if Jesus didn't, since He commended the practice of tithing to Pharisees and that He followed all of God's commands (see Malachi where failing to tithe is called robbing God - by God).



Soxfan -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 10:20:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN

Did Jesus and the Disciples ever tithe?

I cant find anywhere they tithed.


I would assume they did, since Jesus hadn't yet fulflled the New Covenant. Once that happened, He gave us clear instructions on how to give.



JimboFletch -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 10:34:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soxfan

...Once that happened, He gave us clear instructions on how to give.

I'm still waiting to see that, Sox. So far, all I've ever seen in this thread are instructions on giving to Foreign Missions, not local giving. So many get fixated on those instructions that we end up with 97% of professing Christians giving only between 2.5% and 3.5% of their income to ALL charitable giving, including to church and religious causes. One must conclude that Jesus' fulfillment of the OT Law left a religion that is about one third as generous as those under the OT - that without strict guidelines God no longer expects the enormous blessings He gives His redeemed to be used to further Kingdom or help in His various ministries but to be squirreled away for rainy days and in the purchase of goods of this world - that Jesus came to institute stinginess and hording.



IMA_CHRISTIAN -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 1:14:17 PM)

you know what? I hear stories about people who say they mysteriously got a big chunk of money from out of nowhere. OK they are probly true.. but i dont believe in that for me.

I do believe that God would provide each day for me, like he did with manna in the wilderness.

i do pay tithes, but i dont look for these "magical" droppings of money on me.

is that ok just to believe God will send each days' needs to me? coz i can believe that.

Also. I have a question - we are promised that God will supply all our needs according to his riches in glory,, but it does not say "according to his riches in glory if we tithe"

how do you reconcile that? it seems God will take care of our needs whether or not we tithe.



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 2:32:38 PM)

quote:

you know what? I hear stories about people who say they mysteriously got a big chunk of money from out of nowhere. OK they are probly true.. but i dont believe in that for me.


Don't say that. God may not have it fall from the sky but a birthday card with money in it, shoes that last longer than they would have otherwise, bonus at work or even a friend taking you out to eat can be the very hand of God at work in your life. Begin to acknowledge that and maybe you can see his hand move in even bigger ways.

quote:

it seems God will take care of our needs whether or not we tithe.


Ever Read Foxes book of Martyers?

read it and then reconsider what a "need" is. Realize some of those people died for lack of medical attention, food, shelter, proper clothings and at the hands of evil men. Yet God met their needs in the middle of extreme torture and even in death.

The passage you quoted was from Philippians. Paul had experienced hunger and said that he learned how to be content in that state becaue all things are possible with God.

Do you believe if Paul had been disobedient in any area of his life he would have been able to learn contentment while in hunger? In prison?
When beaten? When he was lonely?

Study Hebrews 11 this passage.

35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were torturedNero is best known for putting the Christians in coats of wax and setting them on fire while they screamed from pain as he hosted his guest in the night time garden parties...it was part of their entertainment and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37 They were stoned; they were sawed in two;they would place you in a hollowed out tree and cut you in half they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, these were often drinched in animal blood for the lions and wild animals to come tear you apartdestitute, persecuted and mistreated-- 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. 39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Did God meet their need?



Soxfan -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 2:38:15 PM)

Jesus left the disciples plenty of instructions to carry out when he went to be with His Father. Funny how all through Acts, and other books of the NT when the early church was being formed, there is plenty of mention of church leadership structure (elders, deacons, etc), how to conduct ourselves in church, the roles of women and men, how to spot false teaching, etc...Yet there is NO further mention of tithing.

Now considering how much importance Jesus placed on how money fits into our lives, you would have thought He would have made sure that the early church fathers would have reinforced this "practice" with new believers...eh?

I have NEVER tithed a day in my "second" life. My giving (time, talents and treasures) is guided by the Holy Spirit and far exceeds any "practice". I have more important work to do for the Father than to break out my giving by percents and old outdated Mosaic Laws that vanished under the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.



JimboFletch -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 2:43:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN

you know what? I hear stories about people who say they mysteriously got a big chunk of money from out of nowhere. OK they are probly true.. but i dont believe in that for me.

I do believe that God would provide each day for me, like he did with manna in the wilderness.

i do pay tithes, but i dont look for these "magical" droppings of money on me.

is that ok just to believe God will send each days' needs to me? coz i can believe that.


First, tithing for me is an act of worship for the blessings God already has given me. He's not a celestial gumball machine. When I worship Him through tithes and offerings, it's His with no strings attached.

Second, He promises to bless any that tithe. He chooses when and how - it might not even be financially. He may choose to bless me through filling an unexpected need for, say, my grandson.

quote:

Also. I have a question - we are promised that God will supply all our needs according to his riches in glory,, but it does not say "according to his riches in glory if we tithe"

how do you reconcile that? it seems God will take care of our needs whether or not we tithe.

God sends rain on the just and unjust and also to to those that give Him their wallet and those who think they are owed what they received.



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 2:44:58 PM)

quote:

guided by the Holy Spirit


How do you know it's the Holy Spirit guiding you if you don't check it against "all" of scripture? Are you really going off gut feeling and calling that Holy?

So I guess you have no problem not using ANY DEBT...because after all the NT commands believers to "owe no man anything except the debt of love"......correct? You don't have and never had a mortage, student loan or auto debt and teach your children that for the NT believer God said you cannot have debt.

You do live by the NT teaching don't you?



JimboFletch -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 2:45:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soxfan

Jesus left the disciples plenty of instructions to carry out when he went to be with His Father. Funny how all through Acts, and other books of the NT when the early church was being formed...

That God never gave a single one of them instruction to cease tithing, a practice that had been accepted by His people long before the Old Covenant or Law was given. There was no need to reinforce it. Where something needed to be eliminated, God stated it - like circumcision.



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 2:49:07 PM)

quote:

Yet there is NO further mention of tithing.


Why would a believer need more? After all they now lived under grace and had the HS helping them to "do" what God desired of them. Why would they even desire to give less under grace than under the law? What type of attitude or heart change would that be?

Notice in Acts that thousands of Jewish and God fearers were zealous for the law once they were saved and Paul himself joined right in with them and the Chruch leader did as well. That's an example of how people who know God's laws respond when they partook of grace.



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 2:53:53 PM)

quote:

Also. I have a question - we are promised that God will supply all our needs according to his riches in glory,, but it does not say "according to his riches in glory if we tithe"

how do you reconcile that? it seems God will take care of our needs whether or not we tithe.


I hope you notice that both Jimbo and I responded to you above.

Let me ask you something? Why are you asking us this? What other disciplines of the faith could you have used in the place of the word tithe? What about praying, witnessing, worship, gratitude, contentment, sharing with the poor and needy, and so on. Why do you connect that with "just" giving back 10% and not giving more than a tithe?

Are you wanting to test God to see if he will meet your needs if you don't tithe?

He will but he will not necessarily bless you with more.

Remember the parable of the stweards. The faithful steward was given more responsibility (blessing) the unfaithful had what little he did have taken away from him.



JimboFletch -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 3:00:10 PM)

quote:

Yet there is NO further mention of tithing.

I'm assuming you, then, dismiss Hebrews as inspired.



IMA_CHRISTIAN -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 4:52:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

quote:

you know what? I hear stories about people who say they mysteriously got a big chunk of money from out of nowhere. OK they are probly true.. but i dont believe in that for me.


Don't say that. God may not have it fall from the sky but a birthday card with money in it, shoes that last longer than they would have otherwise, bonus at work or even a friend taking you out to eat can be the very hand of God at work in your life. Begin to acknowledge that and maybe you can see his hand move in even bigger ways.

quote:

it seems God will take care of our needs whether or not we tithe.


Ever Read Foxes book of Martyers?

read it and then reconsider what a "need" is. Realize some of those people died for lack of medical attention, food, shelter, proper clothings and at the hands of evil men. Yet God met their needs in the middle of extreme torture and even in death.

The passage you quoted was from Philippians. Paul had experienced hunger and said that he learned how to be content in that state becaue all things are possible with God.

Do you believe if Paul had been disobedient in any area of his life he would have been able to learn contentment while in hunger? In prison?
When beaten? When he was lonely?

Study Hebrews 11 this passage.

35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were torturedNero is best known for putting the Christians in coats of wax and setting them on fire while they screamed from pain as he hosted his guest in the night time garden parties...it was part of their entertainment and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37 They were stoned; they were sawed in two;they would place you in a hollowed out tree and cut you in half they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, these were often drinched in animal blood for the lions and wild animals to come tear you apartdestitute, persecuted and mistreated-- 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. 39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Did God meet their need?


That has got to be THE BEST post i read all month. Thank you so much! you have encouraged me.

because just this week, 5 days ago Friday, i was lookin at $26 to last me for the next 2 weeks, i wanted to keep my tithe, but did not. this week, i dont expect a big ball of money to drop down from the sky - though it could happen but God let me know he will provide manna each day. so far he has. we've had extra food left over at work from committee meetings, and i baked a loaf of bread, i had some money to go get a few basic groceries, i had just enough laundry detergent and coins for 2 loads of laundry, etc. i feel assured that God will take me thru. however, thursday when i was struggling as to keep the tithe "just this once" our give God an IOU, well i decided to give it and see what God will do (seems He set things up this way)... i broke down and cried "God what am i going to do!!??" in despair. but so far, He has provided daily manna each day. thats all i need. will keep ya'll posted. When God gets me thru this next 1.2 weeks till next payday.



IMA_CHRISTIAN -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (10/14/2008 4:59:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

quote:

Also. I have a question - we are promised that God will supply all our needs according to his riches in glory,, but it does not say "according to his riches in glory if we tithe"

how do you reconcile that? it seems God will take care of our needs whether or not we tithe.


I hope you notice that both Jimbo and I responded to you above.

Let me ask you something? Why are you asking us this? What other disciplines of the faith could you have used in the place of the word tithe? What about praying, witnessing, worship, gratitude, contentment, sharing with the poor and needy, and so on. Why do you connect that with "just" giving back 10% and not giving more than a tithe?

Are you wanting to test God to see if he will meet your needs if you don't tithe?

He will but he will not necessarily bless you with more.

Remember the parable of the stweards. The faithful steward was given more responsibility (blessing) the unfaithful had what little he did have taken away from him.


ohyeah, i also had to, between last week and Sunday to get over the despair and the other bad feelings i was having toward this. i never was this broke before.. its easy to depend on my own self what i can see thru my paycheck. I did not want to ever have a expectation that God owes me, nor do i want to be an uncheerful giver. nor do i want to take the chance that "the destroyer" would attack, if i did not give God. ok some will read that wrong, but i mean - giving a tithe is a test of faith in God.

well another thing that happened, i have a credit card that has huge interest, i was late one time and they autoimatically raised the interest from 10% to 28%, this caused my interest to go sky high.. i'd never be able to pay .. well monday i called and the lady was nice and offered to change that back down to 9%. halleluah,,, !!!! the guy i called a month ago when they did that to me said no they will not change it.

ok i dont know if thats a co-incidence, with the tithe, but when i got off the phone i went to the photocpier room and a peace flowed over me and God let me know he did that for me. I was so ashamed i doubted God at first.



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