RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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christiancapitalist -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 5:09:20 PM)

i'm sorry for my extreme comment. i didn't come come across the way i meant. what i meant was this: I'm tired of fat, lazy christian taking up space in church. you know whom i'm talking about. they sit in church every sunday, feeling good as they soak up teaching and fellowship. they are always too "busy' to volunteer or help others. they'll show up for potlucks and parties, but street ministry of ministering to the homeless? nah, that's for "other people" to do. they don't tithe, they don't give to missions. i'm not talking about baby christians. i'm talking about people who've been saved for years. i'm sorry if i've offended anyone. i posted without thinking.



ShadeIsHe -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 6:37:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: silvrstridr

I think both of your views are a little off target. Church should not require contribution to the costs, but ShadeIsHe, you are a little off as well, tithing is not the ONLY reason to go to Church.

People who go to church and don't pay tithes are not freeloaders. People who don't go to church because they think there is too much pressure placed on tithes are insecure with their own beliefs about it.



I don't *think* there is too much pressure placed on tithes, I *know* it, having sat through many a sermon on the subject at churches that liked to preach quite regularly on it. No, I am not insecure with my own beliefs.

quote:


In my opinion, based on the bible, your thoughts of sacrificing tithe to pay off your debt is not biblical.


Based on my study of Scripture, I've come to a different conclusion. I believe I should honor my promises to pay what I owe and to make sure our own family is provided for.

quote:



Tithe doesn't have to be to that 6 million dollar church, it could be as simple as taking 10% and walking around the ghetto giving homeless people food and telling them Jesus loves them and wants them to have a better life.


Yes, I know there are many places where one could give. That's why the churches that put high pressure on a minimum 10% tithe to their churches and say that giving elsewhere should be above and beyond the 10% irritate me so.



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 6:48:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

quote:

And by the way, calling or inferring someone is an "outsider"..OUCH.. Think about the ramifications of that wicked tongue or fingers...


By outsider I mean someone who judges the organized acitives of the organized church from the "outside" rather than being an active participant. Someone who uses "evidence" to prove their case by saying they watch CNN (funny that's a new's station where I live) or they call "evidence" what they see a Chuch building looks like instead of knowing any Facts from first hand experience. Gossip and slander is what I call that type of talk.

BTW, I notice that you left off the copy of paste of my reply the FRIST sentence that put the rest of my paragraph in context. It was discussing that when we tithe the money goes to more than just keeping up buildings or paying the Lord's ministers.....notice you cut that out and then said you gave to everything that you left in the cut and paste......but not what you left out.

Here is my first sentence that you chose to leave out.

It's not just the Church building that our tithes and offerings go to support or the Lord's ministers.


Well gee....

Leaving off the first sentence does nothing to change the context of your post or my comment. And again this is not aimed at you or your congregation which it appear now that you have expanded it to all organized religion that I am an outsider in...

I am a part of the church just not your limited idea of it. The church is not limited to just those people on a roster somewhere that meet in specific buildings.

Rather the continued character assasination attempts... Maybe you could offer scripture in calm and organized discussion to prove and disprove your position. Start by explaining what tithing is in your thinking. That way we can keep the discussion on track.

You want data and go on experience but that proves nothing. I'm not talking or judging organized religion so to speak. I'm talking about tithing and the scripture that shows it place and relationship to Christians.

CNN, and the Inspiration Network do show the state of some of this organized religion. It's just a fact, but that's not the topic on this thread. Rightful or wrongful use of money collected by the organized church does not prove or disprove what Gods idea of giving should be.

You realize the commentary I used that referred to the pastors living above were they should was written back in the 1800's so this is nothing new. I can't believe that anyone coming to Crosswalk that has any knowledge at all does understand these things are real n some places.

Also there are Pastor of large well funded church congregations that speak out against tithing.



ShadeIsHe -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 7:43:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: christiancapitalist

i'm sorry for my extreme comment. i didn't come come across the way i meant. what i meant was this: I'm tired of fat, lazy christian taking up space in church. you know whom i'm talking about. they sit in church every sunday, feeling good as they soak up teaching and fellowship. they are always too "busy' to volunteer or help others. they'll show up for potlucks and parties, but street ministry of ministering to the homeless? nah, that's for "other people" to do. they don't tithe, they don't give to missions. i'm not talking about baby christians. i'm talking about people who've been saved for years. i'm sorry if i've offended anyone. i posted without thinking.



I've got the solution to that. To make things fair, churches should operate similar to a gym or country club membership. On your first visit you get to take a free tour of the facilities. If you like it, and if you can afford it, you can fill out an application and sign a contract that states you agree to pay 10% of your salary and promise to perform X amount of service hours. If you break the contract, well, you're outta there. [8D]

Seriously, I think it would be difficult to know what is really going on in other people's personal lives. There could be a number of valid reasons why they don't volunteer.

Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them......................So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, "Lord, and what about this man?" Jesus said to him, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!" --John 21: 20a, 21-22



Eutychus -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 7:47:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkeigley

I only read the last page of this debate.
Glad to find one of Euty's hangouts. haha.

Why does this issue get so much attention?
Because it hits us all in the same place, the pocket book.

There are many smoke screens, but it's the pocket book.
The givers give to God from their thankfulness and perspective of obedience.
The non-givers come up with whatever excuse seems handy and even blame
God for their excuses.

For one, I just don't get it.
And like many, feel ostricized when I leave. lol.

Great to see you again Carl. Might I also say, "Right on!"
[sm=thumbsup.gif]

"Lord, I give you my all and trust you with my all - except the checkbook."
[:D]



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 8:47:40 PM)

Psalms 22,

1 Corinthians 9 has somewhat blown me away. Not just with the tithe princple but has me thinking about a lot of things. I keep going to the verses in 2 Timothy 3

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed, knowing those from whom you learned, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred Scriptures, which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

along with this from the 1 Cor passage:

Doesn't the law also say the same thing? 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Do not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain. Is God really concerned with oxen? 10 Or isn't He really saying it for us? Yes, this is written for us,

My mind is just going all over the place with the idea that the law was written for "US"! WOW! "ALL" scripture is profitable......there are such hidden treasures in God's Word! It's just neat to me when God opens up His Word to me!

******

Oh good nite alive! Euty has done gone crazy with his picture again![8D]



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 10:05:11 PM)

Mt 23:23 -
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You pay a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, yet you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy, and faith. These things should have been done without neglecting the others.

Lu 11:42 -
"But woe to you Pharisees! You give a tenth of mint, rue, and every kind of herb, and you bypass justice and love for God. These things you should have done without neglecting the others.

1 Cor. 9:10a

Or isn't He really saying it for us? Yes, this is written for us,

2 Timothy 3:16

All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness,

*****

How many years or decades after the resurrection were the Matthew and Luke passages recorded? Why did God breath these words? Were they just to fill in a story line? Did Jesus ever teach these concepts in the three years he ministered without using the tithing part that God could have recorded? When Jesus spoke those words did he know they would be found in our bible? Are they written for us? Are the underlined passages profitable for teaching? rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness? Are their any other words recorded that Jesus spoke in such a strong tone that "you should do" that we have decided don't apply to us today?



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 10:17:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

Psalms 22,

1 Corinthians 9 has somewhat blown me away. Not just with the tithe princple but has me thinking about a lot of things. I keep going to the verses in 2 Timothy 3

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed, knowing those from whom you learned, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred Scriptures, which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

along with this from the 1 Cor passage:

Doesn't the law also say the same thing? 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Do not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain. Is God really concerned with oxen? 10 Or isn't He really saying it for us? Yes, this is written for us,

My mind is just going all over the place with the idea that the law was written for "US"! WOW! "ALL" scripture is profitable......there are such hidden treasures in God's Word! It's just neat to me when God opens up His Word to me!

******

Oh good nite alive! Euty has done gone crazy with his picture again![8D]


Believe it or not I agree with you 100% here... The law is in deed for us today as a teaching tool. It contains much wisdom that is directly apllicable to our everyday life. But I've said that before.[:)].. The key is to rightly divide it so that you see the truth wthin it. Which then leads to proper application.

We have to understand the ramifications of the qualifier God put in the text. Timothy was told that the Scriptures were God breathed and in deed they were. That they were in the context of instructing about salvation through faith in Jesus.

But was Timothy told that the law says to offer animal sacrifices for year by year for the forgiveness of sins? No... We have a different sacrifice an that is Jesus through whm we are saved by faith through.

The Apostles are also agreed that we do not teach keeping the law or law keeping. I would hope everyone would refresh thier familiarity with this passage in context. They specifically talk about the law of Moses...Which include tithing...

Acts 15:28-29

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell. "
NASB

According to the undeniable exprerts and the first authorities in the church, the essential things are given about obedience to the law and tithing is not among them. They chose to put no further burden on Gentile believers. I stand with them. I also refuse to lay any non-essential burdens upon my fellow brothers and sisters. I would hope that everyone else would do the same.

Here is another passage to reflect upon:
Gal 2:2-6
3 But not even Titus who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 But it was because of the false brethren who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage. 5 But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you.
NASB

Also:

Eph 2:13-16
3 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
NASB

We also need to include:

1 Tim 1:5-11
5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions. 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
NASB

Using it lawfully is the key...

1 Tim 1:8

[But we know that the law is good] The law as given by God, is both good in itself, and has a good tendency. This is similar to what the apostle had asserted, Rom 7:12-16: The law is holy; and the commandment is holy, just, and good, where see the note.

[If a man use it lawfully] That is, interpret it according to its own spirit and design, and use it for the purpose for which God has given it; for the ceremonial law was a schoolmaster to lead us unto Christ, and Christ is the end of that law for justification to everyone that believes. Now those who did not use the law in reference to these ends, did not use it lawfully-they did not construe it according to its original design and meaning.
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1996, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)


Also:

James 1:25-2:1
25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man shall be blessed in what he does. 26 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless. 27 This is pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father, to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
NASB



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/19/2005 6:02:23 AM)

quote:

Believe it or not I agree with you 100% here... The law is in deed for us today as a teaching tool. It contains much wisdom that is directly apllicable to our everyday life. But I've said that before. .. The key is to rightly divide it so that you see the truth wthin it. Which then leads to proper application.

We have to understand the ramifications of the qualifier God put in the text. Timothy was told that the Scriptures were God breathed and in deed they were. That they were in the context of instructing about salvation through faith in Jesus.


But Paul according the the letter he wrote the "mainly Gentile" Church in Corinth did not use the law to "just bring us to salvation". Nor did he imply that the law was written just for the Jews under the old Cov. Rather he used the law properly....to teach us a principle using the law. He said it was for "us" as in "gentiles" otherwise he would not have mentioned it in his letter to the mainly gentile audience. He would have made "sure" to point out that it was not for them.

We must also remember that Timothy was taught by his mother and grandmother. He was taught the law. No where do I find the suggestion that the law has "no other value" rather the 1 Cor. passage states just the opposite.

quote:

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell. "
NASB

According to the undeniable exprerts and the first authorities in the church, the essential things are given about obedience to the law and tithing is not among them. They chose to put no further burden on Gentile believers. I stand with them. I also refuse to lay any non-essential burdens upon my fellow brothers and sisters. I would hope that everyone else would do the same.


So an "essential law" is me not eating the fried chicken? We ring necks around here to kill one. Rare steaks are a common in even church functions.

Any non-essential burdens - there are LOTS of non essentials. Baptism and taking the Lord's Supper among them. Lots of non essentials Jesus commanded us to follow and to teach others. Witnessing is a non-essential. According to this theory Paul was wrong in 1 Corinthians 9 to use the law in his teachings. Non essential are important for anyone who is trying to teach anything other than the message of the cross.
(can't comment on the rest of your post. enough right here for me to ignore the rest of this line of reasoning)



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/19/2005 7:29:10 AM)

quote:

CNN, and the Inspiration Network do show the state of some of this organized religion. It's just a fact, but that's not the topic on this thread. Rightful or wrongful use of money collected by the organized church does not prove or disprove what Gods idea of giving should be.

You realize the commentary I used that referred to the pastors living above were they should was written back in the 1800's so this is nothing new. I can't believe that anyone coming to Crosswalk that has any knowledge at all does understand these things are real n some places.


Read the bible and you will find that con men also called "false prophets" were alive and well in scripture. You can find them in the OT also. We "christians" are warned about them. We in the Church don't consider them to be "Christians" just as Paul and John did not in scritpure. We are warned to stay away from them. Paul also told us to "not neglect" the meeting together. Paul also instructed us in how to organize the church. If staying away from the organized Church was something Christians need to do because of false preachers then God would have instructed us to do that but he didn't. He did just the opposite.

False teachers/preachers are nothing new at all. Why a "false preaher" teachings are in a serious thread I have no clue unless it's to take the attention off the subject at hand. Strawman argument. People teach false gospels too but that should not effect our meeting together with "real christians" and learning the "true" gospel.

I would appreciate leaving off the comments comparing the true Church of Jesus Christ with false teachers of satan.



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/19/2005 7:38:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

Any non-essential burdens - there are LOTS of non essentials. Baptism and taking the Lord's Supper among them. Lots of non essentials Jesus commanded us to follow and to teach others. Witnessing is a non-essential. According to this theory Paul was wrong in 1 Corinthians 9 to use the law in his teachings. Non essential are important for anyone who is trying to teach anything other than the message of the cross.
(can't comment on the rest of your post. enough right here for me to ignore the rest of this line of reasoning)



This is not my line of reasoning at all... It's some thought up rendering of your own imagination....

Baptism isn't in the law being talked about here or Lords Supper, niether is witnessing, etc... these are not within the context of the non-essentials. Never was and anyone rightly discerning the subject would see it plainly. Go ahead and ignore the reasoning, it never came from me. It's your own made up, off base reasoning and should be ignored.

Again, rather than made-up imaginary contrivings and side-steppng the issue please offer scriptural support for your view of tithing and define it first so all will know exactly what you believe tithing is.

The item you list are clearly proclaimed in the New Testament as valid and essential part of our faith and walk.



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/19/2005 7:47:45 AM)

SKB,

I am blocking you. You "never" say what you said.



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/19/2005 7:48:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

quote:

CNN, and the Inspiration Network do show the state of some of this organized religion. It's just a fact, but that's not the topic on this thread. Rightful or wrongful use of money collected by the organized church does not prove or disprove what Gods idea of giving should be.

You realize the commentary I used that referred to the pastors living above were they should was written back in the 1800's so this is nothing new. I can't believe that anyone coming to Crosswalk that has any knowledge at all does understand these things are real n some places.


Read the bible and you will find that con men also called "false prophets" were alive and well in scripture. You can find them in the OT also. We "christians" are warned about them. We in the Church don't consider them to be "Christians" just as Paul and John did not in scritpure. We are warned to stay away from them. Paul also told us to "not neglect" the meeting together. Paul also instructed us in how to organize the church. If staying away from the organized Church was something Christians need to do because of false preachers then God would have instructed us to do that but he didn't. He did just the opposite.

False teachers/preachers are nothing new at all. Why a "false preaher" teachings are in a serious thread I have no clue unless it's to take the attention off the subject at hand. Strawman argument. People teach false gospels too but that should not effect our meeting together with "real christians" and learning the "true" gospel.

I would appreciate leaving off the comments comparing the true Church of Jesus Christ with false teachers of satan.


This issue is more were HK was coming from than I was... And by the way I read my Bible... Not just read it but study it deeply.

Now, organized congreagtions that are off following a false teacher... Are they really in the real church. I realize this isn't part of the issue but you seem to dwell of this organized church topic. And use it as some disqualifier for the opposition. If I choose to not attend a known congregtion that is not following Jesus but rather seem to be following something else... Your saying I should attend anyway... ????

Just because a group gather together and put up a building doen't make them a church. Enough said on this issue.



silvrstridr -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/19/2005 9:11:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShouldKnowBetter

Some many assumptions about the other party and no knowledge or attempt at understanding. I used to tithe and talk like you. Since I have quit doing it (as you would define it) and came to a higher understanding the blessings have poured down.

My giving also goes for all these things and more and by the way my total is way more than ten percent. True, I don't tithe "to my local fellowship" if that was even possible to do today.



If you are so "enlightened with higher understanding", then I guess you see that the only difference between you a normal Christian is that you tithe directly to the community, instead of using the Church as a means of distribution of funds.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShadeIsHe

quote:

ORIGINAL: silvrstridr

I think both of your views are a little off target. Church should not require contribution to the costs, but ShadeIsHe, you are a little off as well, tithing is not the ONLY reason to go to Church.

People who go to church and don't pay tithes are not freeloaders. People who don't go to church because they think there is too much pressure placed on tithes are insecure with their own beliefs about it.



I don't *think* there is too much pressure placed on tithes, I *know* it, having sat through many a sermon on the subject at churches that liked to preach quite regularly on it. No, I am not insecure with my own beliefs.


Funny i've been a Christian for all my life, been to several denominations and sects of Churches, and have never felt like I was going to be kicked out for not tithing. Or kicked out period.
quote:


quote:


In my opinion, based on the bible, your thoughts of sacrificing tithe to pay off your debt is not biblical.


Based on my study of Scripture, I've come to a different conclusion. I believe I should honor my promises to pay what I owe and to make sure our own family is provided for.


Funny. You come to that conclusion, and I come to the conclusion you have weak faith that God will provide for you.

quote:


quote:



Tithe doesn't have to be to that 6 million dollar church, it could be as simple as taking 10% and walking around the ghetto giving homeless people food and telling them Jesus loves them and wants them to have a better life.


Yes, I know there are many places where one could give. That's why the churches that put high pressure on a minimum 10% tithe to their churches and say that giving elsewhere should be above and beyond the 10% irritate me so.


If your irritated, do what the bible says: Confront the church about it, or go to another one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShadeIsHe

I've got the solution to that. To make things fair, churches should operate similar to a gym or country club membership. On your first visit you get to take a free tour of the facilities. If you like it, and if you can afford it, you can fill out an application and sign a contract that states you agree to pay 10% of your salary and promise to perform X amount of service hours. If you break the contract, well, you're outta there. [8D]


I dont find your sense of humor funny at all.



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/19/2005 10:39:43 AM)

Silvrstridr,

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShouldKnowBetter

Some many assumptions about the other party and no knowledge or attempt at understanding. I used to tithe and talk like you. Since I have quit doing it (as you would define it) and came to a higher understanding the blessings have poured down.

My giving also goes for all these things and more and by the way my total is way more than ten percent. True, I don't tithe "to my local fellowship" if that was even possible to do today.



If you are so "enlightened with higher understanding", then I guess you see that the only difference between you a normal Christian is that you tithe directly to the community, instead of using the Church as a means of distribution of funds.


Actually, if you do an in depth study on tithing in the OT and couple that with the contrasting national and governmental differences that also exist between now and then... You can see the familiarity with the system laid out by God through Moses for the Promised Land and the system used for that same purpose today in just about every nation of earth.

All accounts of tithing in the Bible are to a people, government, King, etc... They went for the purposes of funding the nation, people, government, King... It was regulated and required giving with a set of laws and regulations governing the practice. Except the feast tithe... That had a different purpose and even though it was a tithe it was never given away. It was kept and used according to the law by sharing it with all those under the charge of the tribal head or family head (Patriarch) during the feast.

Why didn't the Israleites have a tithe system in place before the Promised Land? It's simply that it was not needed.

Tithing in the Bible was never a "church funding" or "church activity"concept even in the Promised Land.
The Priests and Levites performed more sevices than just religious work.

I am all for giving... Giving is not the issue... Funding Gods work has alway been freewill, unlimited from the heart giving not born out of necessity.

Some (not all) tithers would tell a young widow raising three chirldren and bearly making ends meet, that here gift is somehow not adequate even if she gave all she had left if it was not at least a tenth of her gross income. After all it's the minimum that God has ever asked for, right?[:(]

That just does not fly. God does not speak highly of those who oppress the poor.

Look at the rich and the widow casting into the treasury and Jesus' own words... The gift is not measured by the monetary value. What would Jesus have said about one of those rich guys walking over to that widow and saying here... take this... is it enough..?

So if the gift is not measured by the worldy monetary value, What is the test? Could it be the attidute, faith or heart condition of the giver?



Lapidoth -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/19/2005 11:41:42 AM)

Is there a chiropractor in the house.
My neck is sore from the bantering back and forth.
Come to think of it, all two sided sports give me
a pain in the neck. LOL.



silvrstridr -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/19/2005 11:45:41 AM)

we already established its the heart that matters not the money

what you posted just shows: Yes back in old testament tithes went to people, government, King. However, isnt that evident of today? Doesnt tithe money of today still go to people in need?

How did the OT church purchase land/building materials/food for all these feasts they talk about? Tithes.

Why does the Church get money for its building, the pastor get a salary? He needs to live, we need a place to gather. Times change, tithes don't.



Lapidoth -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/19/2005 12:18:04 PM)

Malachi 3:8 will a man rob God? yet, you have robbed me.

Malachi 3 the BIG TITHE chapter. lol.

Wait a minute, Malachi 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I change not;"

Wonders why God stuck that here, why not between the OT and NT?

It's established by both sides that the issue is the 'HEART.'
The Bible teachs giving, firstfruits, etc. etc.
But the argument singled out is the tithe.

No end to that argument.
Is to.
Is not.
Is to.
Is not.
Is to.
Is not.

ROFL.



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/19/2005 3:46:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: silvrstridr

we already established its the heart that matters not the money

what you posted just shows: Yes back in old testament tithes went to people, government, King. However, isnt that evident of today? Doesnt tithe money of today still go to people in need?

How did the OT church purchase land/building materials/food for all these feasts they talk about? Tithes.

Why does the Church get money for its building, the pastor get a salary? He needs to live, we need a place to gather. Times change, tithes don't.


Your comment shows that you do not understand my point, have not understood the scriptures offered for the subject.

How did the OT church purchase land?
They didn't, God provided it a tithe never was use d to purchase land. This is a side issue anyway...

building materials
Well again the Bible explains this very clearly, they took up free will offerings and/or the King (Solomon) purchased the materials. Agian to tithe was never use for this purpose.

food for all these feasts they talk about?
Well here you right, at least partially. One feast was funded (if you will) by a tithe. Again this was posted earlier with the related scripture. But the tithe was never given to the church, Levite, Priests, etc... It was kept, transported to the feast site and eaten.

I posted scripture that clear shows that normal daily church operating costs were in the form of a temple tax both voluntary and regulated also service of the Israelites who brought in wood for the fire by sharing the responsibility. It was again not a use of tithes ever...

So since tithes "NEVER" were used for these purposes and God never changes why is it a valid use of tithes today...??? Well it's not and never was... This is a foundational issue however, because not understanding what tithes were, then how can we say what they are today. It's like a foundation built on sand.

Again this is a side issue. The main point about tithe teaching today is a minimum specifically for church "Giving to God" that using the word represents. It is usually qualified with a list of requirements that the gift must meet, like going only to the local congregation, must be based on gross salary, etc... The implication is that those that do not meet the minimum are somehow less justified, ignorant, (pick a word) and somehow out of Gods Will. But God is all the while looking at the heart not the amount.

Under most of this discernment everyone from Adam down throught the ages is found out of Gods Will. Because, not a one of them every tithed or gave to meet this made up list of requirements.

so, How does the Church get money for its building, the pastor get a salary? He needs to live, we need a place to gather?

Just as it's always been done. Gods people gather together and meet the needs. They take on the responsibility and give. The Apostles taught Spirit lead, freewill giving not once going to Mal 3 threatening a curse or laying the burden of a tithe on the church. They did just fine raising the needed money as is evidenced in the New Testament accounts concerning the issue. Just like Moses did when they built the first Tabernacle. There are organized churches out there that do not teach the tithe and they do just fine.

It's true that God does not change and the tithe hasn't either... Gods tithe is nothing like what people try to pass tithing off as today.

Go look for the answer to this question yourself if your really interested in the truth...
Did Aaron and his family pay a tithe?

Remember this is the only person on earth at the time that could go behind the veil and actually stand in the presence of God. Anyone else even approaching would die. Thank God that He decided to change that and we can each boldly approach the throne now.



tfkeel -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/19/2005 4:35:09 PM)

Why does a pastor need a salary? I think the pastor should be the pastor because God calls him to be the pastor, like He calls us to be witnesses, deacons, servers, teachers, etc. and gives the pastor the responsibility to oversee these activities, and teach us to do them. We don't get paid to do the work of the church, why should he?

The church building, if it really needs one, can be funded in no debt out of the gifts from the people of the church, including the pastor, the sunday-school superintendent, the janitor, and the altar-boy.

In truth, for a lot of congregations, they could simply meet in homes and shuffle the responsibility around to different members to host the meetings. Then, the "storehouse" would be for those in need.



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/19/2005 5:25:56 PM)

Thomas

notice that paul even mentions the right to take a wife with one as they preach the gospel

3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Don't we have the right to eat and drink? 5 Don't we have the right to be accompanied by a Christian wife, like the other apostles, the Lord's brothers, and Cephas? 6 Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working? 7 Who ever goes to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its fruit? Or who shepherds a flock and does not drink the milk from the flock? 8 Am I saying this from a human perspective? Doesn't the law also say the same thing? 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Do not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain. Is God really concerned with oxen? 10 Or isn't He really saying it for us? Yes, this is written for us, because he who plows ought to plow in hope, and he who threshes should do so in hope of sharing the crop. 11 If we have sown spiritual things for you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? 12 If others share this authority over you, don't we even more? However, we have not used this authority; instead we endure everything so that we will not hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Do you not know that those who perform the temple services eat the food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the offerings of the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should earn their living by the gospel.


Thomas,

For the two hundred or so of us who meet together we have discovered that it's much cheaper for us to meet in one central location rather than try to figure out where we are going to meet week after week. (several times per week when you examine our church schedule) Our Bible school is able to run much smother and our ministry efforts to the community we serve and the elderly we help is so much easier and cheaper if we meet in one central location that is set up to feed many people. Paying "one" full time pastor is much cheaper and it's a central location where we can house the things we use in our ministry. I know where to go when I run into trouble and need to pick up a couple of bibles to give out. In fact I ran by the church today because I knew several members would be there and able to help me with something. I didn't have to call around or seek these people or materials out instead I just dropped by the Church and knew that everything I needed would be right there.

It's also easier on our pastor, youth leader and teachers to have a central location. We can keep our teaching stuff there and we don't have to worry about something happening and plans changing at the last minute and trying to call up everyone to tell them "plans have changed".

We also have handicapp ramps and rest rooms. Most homes don't have these and some homes are simply going to be out of the question for our elderly and handicapped folks.

It's also good to have our church building because we are able to have a nursery so that the young mothers can have a much needed break and be able to worship and learn in peace. We have a very nice nursery and preschool department where the children are kept, loved, taught and entertained for the 5 hours per week the mothers assemble together.

Our church building was built during the great depression and has always been debt free.

The chior and youth also have places to meet weekly or even daily if they want to minister.

Sometimes when you have a "family" of two hundred it's hard to not have a central location to meet in and store our goods in. We hae found it to be more cost effective, more time effective and simply make things easier so that we are freeded up to concentrate on the more important things.

I am not saying it's a must for everyone. But for us we believe it's a blessing from the Lord and we thank him for it.

As far as helping the needy and the tithe. Let's look at the more important issue. According to God in Deu. 14 the "PURPOSE" of the tithe was to teach us to "fear the Lord". Jesus said we would always have the needy with us. The deeper spiritural issue for me is learning to fear the Lord. When I see the truth about who the Lord is it will show me the truth about who I am and then the rest of this stuff will take care of itself.



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/19/2005 6:02:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

As far as helping the needy and the tithe. Let's look at the more important issue. According to God in Deu. 14 the "PURPOSE" of the tithe was to teach us to "fear the Lord". Jesus said we would always have the needy with us. The deeper spiritural issue for me is learning to fear the Lord. When I see the truth about how the Lord is it will show me the truth about who I am and then the rest of this stuff will take care of itself.


Deut 14:22-23

22 "You shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow, which comes out of the field every year. 23 And you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God, at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the first-born of your herd and your flock, in order that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.
NASB

This tithe is the second 10% nit the first 10% which went to the Levites. According to what I've been able to research on it.

Sorry for the length but this gets deep...
Deut 14:22-29

II. They are here directed how to dispose of it when they had separated it. Let every man lay by as God prospers him and gives him success, and then let him lay out in pious uses as God gives him opportunity; and it will be the easier to lay out, and the proportion will be more satisfying, when first we have laid by. This second tithe may be disposed of,

1. In works of piety, for the first two years after the year of release. They must bring it up, either in kind or in the full value of it, to the place of the sanctuary, and there must spend it in holy feasting before the Lord. If they could do it with any convenience, they must bring it in kind (v. 23); but, if not, they might turn it into money (v. 24-25), and that money must be laid out in something to feast upon before the Lord. The comfortable cheerful using of what God has given us, with temperance and sobriety, is really the honouring of God with it. Contentment, holy joy, and thankfulness, make every meal a religious feast. The end of this law we have (v. 23): That thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always; it was to keep them right and firm to their religion,

(1.) By acquainting them with the sanctuary, the holy things, and the solemn services that were there performed. What they read the appointment of their Bibles, it would do them good to see the observance of in the tabernacle; it would make a deeper impression upon them, which would keep them out of the snares of the idolatrous customs. Note, It will have a good influence upon our constancy in religion never to forsake the assembling of ourselves together, Heb 10:25. By the comfort of the communion of saints, we may be kept to our communion with God.

(2.) By using them to the most pleasant and delightful services of religion. Let them rejoice before the Lord, that they may learn to fear him always. The more pleasure we find in the ways of religion the more likely we shall be to persevere in those ways. One thing they must remember in their pious entertainments-to bid their Levites welcome to them. Thou shalt not forsake the Levites (v. 27): "Let him never be a stranger to thy table, especially when thou eatest before the Lord."

2. Every third year this tithe must be disposed of at home in works of charity (v. 28-29): Lay it up within they own gates, and let it be given to the poor, who, knowing the provision this law had made for them, no doubt would come to seek it; and, that they might make the poor familiar to them and not disdain their company, they are here directed to welcome them to their houses. "Thither let them come, and eat and be satisfied." In this charitable distribution of the second tithe they must have an eye to the poor ministers and add to their encouragement by entertaining them, then to poor strangers (not only for the supply of their necessities, but to put a respect upon them, and so to invite them to turn proselytes), and then to the fatherless and widow, who, though perhaps they might have a competent maintenance left them, yet could not be supposed to live so plentifully and comfortably as they had done in months past, and therefore they were to countenance them, and help to make them easy by inviting them to this entertainment. God has a particular care for widows and fatherless, and he requires that we should have the same. It is his honour, and will be ours, to help the helpless. And if we thus serve God, and do good with what we have, it is promised here that the Lord our God will bless us in all the work of our hand. Note,

(1.) The blessing of God is all in all to our outward prosperity, and, without that blessing, the work of our hands which we do will bring nothing to pass.

(2.) The way to obtain that blessing is to be diligent and charitable. The blessing descends upon the working hand: "Except not that God should bless thee in thy idleness and love of ease, but in all the work of they hand." It is the hand of the diligent, with the blessing of God upon it, that makes rich, Prov 10:4,22. And it descends upon the giving hand; he that thus scatters certainly increases, and the liberal soul will be made fat. It is an undoubted truth, though little believed, that to be charitable to the poor, and to be free and generous in the support of religion and any good work, is the surest and safest way of thriving. What is lent to the Lord will be repaid with abundant interest. See Ezek 44:30.(from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.)


So this is the tithe that they stored up at home... Then traveled to a place (Temple) and feasted in a religious feast. The third year it stayed home and you welcomed the poor and needy into your gates and distributed your tithe yourself. This was way more than just throwing ten% in the offering. As usual Gods purpose and meaning are much deeper than some define it today. I can see how if the giver actually understands the concepts about the principles concerning this tithe that they would indeed learn to reverence God.



ShadeIsHe -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/19/2005 6:47:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: silvrstridr

Funny i've been a Christian for all my life, been to several denominations and sects of Churches, and have never felt like I was going to be kicked out for not tithing. Or kicked out period.


I'm not following you. I've never felt that I would be kicked out for not tithing either. I did say I have attended churches that put too much pressure on their belief of tithing 10%.

quote:



Funny. You come to that conclusion, and I come to the conclusion you have weak faith that God will provide for you.




For if the readiness is present, it is acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what he does not have. For this is not for the ease of others and for your affliction, but by way of equality--at this present time your abundance also may become a supply for your need, that there may be equality. --2Cor 8:12-14 NASB


If my income for a given month is already promised to another (debt repayment) and to my own family's needs, then that money is already earmarked as money that I "do not have." However, I do feel cheerful and free to give out of any abundance there might be.

quote:



If your irritated, do what the bible says: Confront the church about it, or go to another one.



Thanks for the suggestion. I have already been in the process (checking out other churches).



mom4christ2 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/19/2005 7:16:54 PM)

just wondering? When people use the excuse to not tithe because it is in the Old Testament does that mean that we do not have to obey the 10 Commandments because they are in the O.T. ?



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/19/2005 7:56:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mom4christ2

just wondering? When people use the excuse to not tithe because it is in the Old Testament does that mean that we do not have to obey the 10 Commandments because they are in the O.T. ?


The ten commandments make up the "MORAL" Law... They identify sin...

So yes we will follow them but not from obligation or becasue our salvation depends on it, but because we love God and our right hearts will attempt to remain sinless. We may fail but we will make the attempt.

The law was divided into sections. The Moral law was the ten commandment and the laws based on them.

The civil law governed civil matters and the ordinances, or ritual cover religous activities, cerimonies, sacrifices and feasts.

You will notice the tithing is not in the Ten Commandments. They were in the civil and ordinance sections. Laws like offering animal sacrifices and circumcision are no longer requirements.



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