RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/25/2005 5:00:56 PM)

vs 12 of this passage shows us they brought all the spoils of war to Moses and the High Priest. Then God told Moses how to distribute the spoils.

< Message edited by P31W -- 8/25/2005 3:39:52 PM > post 192 where you copied a "portion of what I said".

Your post was at 3:54 plenty of time to see everything said. Back at you -
quote:

you're downright dishonest for the sake of winning the argument. Which it is can only be left up to you. I would hope that you have enough humility to admit your error



heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/25/2005 5:15:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: silvrstridr

HK maybe you need to learn how to read scripture contextually better or something, i see alot of mistakes.

These verses in matthew and luke are saying that God places more importance on the faith than the works (tithing), however, he says "without neglecting the others" meaning we are still to tithe 1/10.


I fully agree with you, at least until you got to the part where you conveniently cast the "us" into that picture. The context of that conversation was fully within the confines of the Law. He was addressing a particular part of the Law to a people who were still under obligation to obey all those Laws, including the Law governing the tithe. If you want to talk about context, then at least remain consistent and inclusive of those elements that are equally relevant.

HK



heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/25/2005 5:21:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: silvrstridr

also, I'd like to ask, why is this such a dire issue to you HK? Do you feel conviction from God in this area or something?


Nope. I stopped tithing to organized religion long ago, and I'm greatly blessed regardless.

quote:

Alot of your posts (and there are ALOT of them) could be taken offensively because you have such strong opinion towards this subject, I was just curious...


I understand. I own two domain sites that deal with this very issue (among many other things), and receive many letters from people seeking answers about this issue who feel enslaved to a lawful bondage that simply isn't right. So, when I have time, I come here to spread the cheer. [:D]

quote:

I mean, most ppl don't even put this much thought into tithing beacuse of its irrelevance to salvation.


Ahh, but it is a big deal to many people. I get FAR more inquiries about this from people than anything else. More and more believers are becoming increasingly tired of having the tithe stake rammed through their hearts. Money-grubbing institutions are just as much alive and well today as they've ever been before, and more and more people are becoming more critical in their outlook, which I see as a good thing.

HK



heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/25/2005 5:32:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

vs 12 of this passage shows us they brought all the spoils of war to Moses and the High Priest. Then God told Moses how to distribute the spoils.

< Message edited by P31W -- 8/25/2005 3:39:52 PM > post 192 where you copied a "portion of what I said".

Your post was at 3:54 plenty of time to see everything said. Back at you -
quote:

you're downright dishonest for the sake of winning the argument. Which it is can only be left up to you. I would hope that you have enough humility to admit your error


(Rolling eyes to Heaven in sheer disbelief of this) Alright, let's quote that verse for what it says:

Num 31:12, "And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho."

As you can clearly see, it was brought to ALL the people, NOT just the religious leaders. Now, what is equally relavant is the following in the instructions as to what was to be done with those spoils and the people:

Num 31:26-31
26 Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation:
27 And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation:
28 And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep:
29 Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD.
30 And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD.
31 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

So, the soldiers only donated 1/500th of their half of the spoils to the priests, and the civilians donated only 1/50th of their half of the spoils to the Levites. A tithe is nowhere implied, nor commanded on all that chapter.

Again, either you still don't understand any of this, or you're being downright dishonest. The choice is yours. I'm trying to leave you some wiggle room out of this, but if you insist upon this path of folly, then I'm going to call a spade a spade pretty soon.

HK



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/25/2005 5:41:51 PM)

SKB,

I have been racking my brain to think about where you can find the information on the tax collectors and how they were treated. I don't have my copy of 12 Ordinary Men by John MacArthur anymore but if someone does if they would look at the chapter on Matthew. He was a tax collector. Either this information should be contained in the book or there are some reference notes, books posted in the book that can tell one where to find this information. If memory serves they could not enter the synagogue or even offer sacrifices either. They were extremely hated by the Jews.



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/25/2005 5:52:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heavenskeys

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

quote:

Can you explain how this has any implicit or direct ties to man-made, organized religion? Are you assuming that some dude who has the charisma to convince a group of people to stand behind a building project automatically qualifies as a leader within the Church, and therefore a true minister of Christ? How many of the so-called "pastors" within organized religion are true minister of Christ?

HK


No I can't explain it to you or SKB. Your minds have hardened.


I think it safe to say that this has nothing to do with the alleged hardness of our minds so much as it has to do with your inability to defend your position from scripture. This is too easy...a copout. I asked this same question long before you ever assumed my mind was hardened, and you refused to answer it back then in this very thread, so the portrait is now complete.

HK


Agreed... My mind is not hardened. It is tempered with the truth of Gods Word. At least in all this I am willing to offer up and reason from the scriputres to show a point. Soemthing lacking thus far from the Pro-tithe camp who will not even try to explain what they define tithing as. Let alone why it is pertinant to Christendom.



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/25/2005 5:54:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

SKB,

I have been racking my brain to think about where you can find the information on the tax collectors and how they were treated. I don't have my copy of 12 Ordinary Men by John MacArthur anymore but if someone does if they would look at the chapter on Matthew. He was a tax collector. Either this information should be contained in the book or there are some reference notes, books posted in the book that can tell one where to find this information. If memory serves they could not enter the synagogue or even offer sacrifices either. They were extremely hated by the Jews.


Funny you should mention John McArthur..... What is his stance on tihtes...? Or do you dare post it....?



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/25/2005 6:00:45 PM)

Sure SKB. He believes the same thing I do. The tithe is not required of a Christian. But that does not mean it's not the biblical standard found throughout scripture and a biblical principle. He like I don't like folks who abuse scripture.

HK,

With the numbers passage. Stop for a minute. Go back to the top of the passage. This was a Holy War. God was 100% over this war. None of the spoils were theirs to keep or to decide what to do with. It's about God 100%. God even had them kill off some people they brought as captives. Notice God's command to purity the metals.

Presenting the spoils of war to Moses, the HP and the camp was simply displaying it. The camp had "no right" nor did the soldier to decide what to do with the spoils of war. This was 100% God's call.

Now I am leaving this thread.

Next time I debate the tithe I want to do it with someone who "knows" their bibles, history and the culture in both the OT and NT well. I am tired of these types of scripture untwisting.



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/25/2005 6:23:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

Sure SKB. He believes the same thing I do. The tithe is not required of a Christian. But that does not mean it's not the biblical standard found throughout scripture and a biblical principle. He like I don't like folks who abuse scripture.

HK,

With the numbers passage. Stop for a minute. Go back to the top of the passage. This was a Holy War. God was 100% over this war. None of the spoils were theirs to keep or to decide what to do with. It's about God 100%. God even had them kill off some people they brought as captives. Notice God's command to purity the metals.

Presenting the spoils of war to Moses, the HP and the camp was simply displaying it. The camp had "no right" nor did the soldier to decide what to do with the spoils of war. This was 100% God's call.

Now I am leaving this thread.

Next time I debate the tithe I want to do it with someone who "knows" their bibles, history and the culture in both the OT and NT well. I am tired of these types of scripture untwisting.


I'm glad you cleared that up... "The tithe is not required of a Christian"... So we agree...

John McArthur says:
"Tithing," are you familiar with the concept of tithing, you know, "Give 10% to the church," you know, that kind of thing? Tithing, basically, is never, ever advocated in the New Testament; it is never taught in the New Testament—never!

Emphasis mine...

You can look it up and make sure it's true over at www.biblebb.com... It's a good resource.



heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/25/2005 6:38:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShouldKnowBetter

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

Sure SKB. He believes the same thing I do. The tithe is not required of a Christian. But that does not mean it's not the biblical standard found throughout scripture and a biblical principle. He like I don't like folks who abuse scripture.

HK,

With the numbers passage. Stop for a minute. Go back to the top of the passage. This was a Holy War. God was 100% over this war. None of the spoils were theirs to keep or to decide what to do with. It's about God 100%. God even had them kill off some people they brought as captives. Notice God's command to purity the metals.

Presenting the spoils of war to Moses, the HP and the camp was simply displaying it. The camp had "no right" nor did the soldier to decide what to do with the spoils of war. This was 100% God's call.

Now I am leaving this thread.

Next time I debate the tithe I want to do it with someone who "knows" their bibles, history and the culture in both the OT and NT well. I am tired of these types of scripture untwisting.


I'm glad you cleared that up... "The tithe is not required of a Christian"... So we agree...

John McArthur says:
"Tithing," are you familiar with the concept of tithing, you know, "Give 10% to the church," you know, that kind of thing? Tithing, basically, is never, ever advocated in the New Testament; it is never taught in the New Testament—never!

Emphasis mine...

You can look it up and make sure it's true over at www.biblebb.com... It's a good resource.


Too late. She already ran and stuck her head in the sand, [Edited per TOS #6]. Remember, she accused us of not knowing the Bible, even though we presented pertinent passages and coherent interpretations. We may have been on two different paths, but they ran parellel with the Bible, not perpendicular. [:D]

HK



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/25/2005 6:47:57 PM)

HK,

Have you read any of the content on www.Biblebb.com it has much good information and sermons from well recognized past including: Spurgeon, Whitfield, Ryle, Edward and McArhtur.. There are some good "Giving" sermons there that really hit the nail on the head.



Rufas2000 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/25/2005 8:42:29 PM)

quote:

You seem to be confusing organized religion and the Church itself.


No I know the difference. I wasn't clear, I'll take the blame for that. But I do think the church (social institution, little c, contains unsaved, needs buildings, focused on physical / social) does intersect with the Church (God's holy institution, capital C, the ranks of the saved / born again, not contained to a building, focused on spiritual). But certainly the relationship veers in opposite directions too often.

quote:

This was never about not having niceties. My main contention has been against organized religion using the primary portion of believer's giving for such things.


I think you realize that no one will debate that point. The debate comes in how many of our churches (little c and the Church, big C, is never plural). My interpretation (which has failed before here) is that you see many churches (little c, I'll stop we all get it now) doing this whereas I (trying to be optimistic) think many churches are trying to do the right thing.

quote:

The God portrayed within the pages of the Bible is able to equip just one man to do what 10 million religionists with buildings and real estate could not collectively accomplish in 10 million years. That same God is not limited to only being able to use what mankind errects with his mere hands. The One who created all that is certainly has the ability to go far beyond mere numbers and quantities of warm bodies and brick, wood and mortar edifices.


Again, no Christian would debate that. Paul would be a perfect example to prove that statement. But God has the soverignty to use human constructs to achieve His holy purpose and I believe He does so quite often.

I think that tithing and the church's use of said funds are two different issues. But I certainly would not tithe to a church that did not use the money to make a spiritual investment in the community they serve.

Finally, if you can't find a church that you feel right tithing to and you use your money to support causes (by contributions or expenditures on your own) Jesus would support I'm OK with that.



heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/26/2005 10:12:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShouldKnowBetter

HK,

Have you read any of the content on www.Biblebb.com it has much good information and sermons from well recognized past including: Spurgeon, Whitfield, Ryle, Edward and McArhtur.. There are some good "Giving" sermons there that really hit the nail on the head.


Nope, but it sounds interesting. I think I'll give it a looksee.

HK



heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/26/2005 10:26:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rufas2000
I think that tithing and the church's use of said funds are two different issues.


Well, yes and no, but we've already hashed through this.

quote:

But I certainly would not tithe to a church that did not use the money to make a spiritual investment in the community they serve.


As I said in the past, I have no problem with people supporting institutions secondarily in their giving. If that institution wants to have "christian" rock concerts, then that's fine too (even though I don't like them). They have that freedom, which I have no intention of taking away. I wouldn't even go so far as to say that they should be a benefit to the community around them if they choose not to be. Such debates generally degenerate into squabbles over piddly things that mostly amount to nothing. They will always be an expression of themselves, first and foremost, long before they are an expression of Christ in their given community. That's just natural human nature rather than anything eveil and wicked.

quote:

Finally, if you can't find a church that you feel right tithing to and you use your money to support causes (by contributions or expenditures on your own) Jesus would support I'm OK with that.


Understood. What's sad is that most hand these institutions that primary portion of their giving with the assumption that it will be handled properly. God's word demonstrates time and time again that portion being used for meeting needs. 99.99999999% of religious organizations don't handle that portion in accordance with God's word, so I'm pretty much left with what I did years ago, which is to walk away from it, never to darken its doorstep.

Richard Hansen once said:

It is a universal tendency in the Christian religion, as in many other religions, to give a theological interpretation to institutions, which have developed gradually through a period of time for the sake of practical usefulness, and then read that interpretation back into the earliest periods and infancy of these institutions, attaching them to an age when in fact nobody imagined that they had such a meaning.

HK



lightshineon -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/26/2005 10:27:43 AM)

what I discovered in most cases if either tithe, or giving, that most of us love the Lord, and seek to do our best. This is the case in my church body anyway.



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/26/2005 10:55:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

what I discovered in most cases if either tithe, or giving, that most of us love the Lord, and seek to do our best. This is the case in my church body anyway.


I know many good hearted people in the body as well. Some believe in tithing for different reason and other tend more against. I know the heart is the key to a gifts worthness before God.

However: Any doctrinal stance if incorrect can tend to point someone in the wrong direction it should be avoided. IMHO

This is the problem I see with tithe teaching. It tends to point toward works and foster works based thinking. Also called reliance on self to justification, etc... This even in the smallest sense can be the yeast that starts a coorpution and leads people astray.

Another concern is being placed back under law. Tithe is so closely coupled with the Mosaic law that is can also lead people down that path. I believe many go down it un-aware of what they are doing and saying. It's like Jesus wasn't enough, I need something else to be justified even if only in my own mind. This is a clear misunderstanding of grace and salvation by grace through faith.

I still stand by the Apostles, who talked extensively about giving and "funding the church" and never once used the word or principle of tithing to give us the truth about those two topics. Why do we feel more enlightened than the Apostles?



caur -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/26/2005 11:06:36 AM)

quote:

It is a universal tendency in the Christian religion, as in many other religions, to give a theological interpretation to institutions, which have developed gradually through a period of time for the sake of practical usefulness, and then read that interpretation back into the earliest periods and infancy of these institutions, attaching them to an age when in fact nobody imagined that they had such a meaning.


I agree, religion does this. However, I give and tithe because I want to and because God wants me to. He has made this clear to me, personally. What He does with His other kids is His business. It is all His anyway. Nothing you have is really yours, you are only a steward. Who cares what happens to it once it is tithed? God does. Since God cares about tithing, He will make sure that "All things work to the good of those that love God and are called according to His purpose".

Mankind needs to remember that God IS. Because He IS, He is completely capable of managing all resources, which He does, for His purpose, which He does, no matter how it may APPEAR to us tiny mortals. As His children we would do well to keep this in mind. We really do need to dwell on exactly WHO HE IS and what He is capable of. Our minds cannot even begin to comprehend.

Tithe, give. Resources, monies, time. Never weary in giving and helping. Share the burden with and for others. Remember that the early church, in example for us since God notes it in the Word, sold their belongings to help each other. This is the way. God provides.

Stop worrying about where it goes. God will take care of that.



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/26/2005 11:53:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caur

quote:

It is a universal tendency in the Christian religion, as in many other religions, to give a theological interpretation to institutions, which have developed gradually through a period of time for the sake of practical usefulness, and then read that interpretation back into the earliest periods and infancy of these institutions, attaching them to an age when in fact nobody imagined that they had such a meaning.


I agree, religion does this. However, I give and tithe because I want to and because God wants me to. He has made this clear to me, personally. What He does with His other kids is His business. It is all His anyway. Nothing you have is really yours, you are only a steward. Who cares what happens to it once it is tithed? God does. Since God cares about tithing, He will make sure that "All things work to the good of those that love God and are called according to His purpose".

Mankind needs to remember that God IS. Because He IS, He is completely capable of managing all resources, which He does, for His purpose, which He does, no matter how it may APPEAR to us tiny mortals. As His children we would do well to keep this in mind. We really do need to dwell on exactly WHO HE IS and what He is capable of. Our minds cannot even begin to comprehend.

Tithe, give. Resources, monies, time. Never weary in giving and helping. Share the burden with and for others. Remember that the early church, in example for us since God notes it in the Word, sold their belongings to help each other. This is the way. God provides.

Stop worrying about where it goes. God will take care of that.


I agree with much of this However:

Look at your own usage of the words.... Tithe and give... as if tithing is not giving but something different... something not to be confused with giving, therefore requiring its own word and definition.

If tithing is not the same as giving then what is it...?

Also on a second point...

God will take care of it... How exactly? By discerning followers understanding His purposes through His Word and doing the right things with it. Or rebuking those who do wrong with it. As we are called to do with wrong doing in the church. Again rightful uses of Gods Money is nothing to do with if a tithe is valid for Christians.

My stance along with many others is that tithe teaching is false doctrine. No matter how you slice and dice it. All current doctine on tithing u=is based on false assumptions about the principle and are not supported in scripture using OT or NT in any combination.



Fritzpw_Admin -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/26/2005 1:26:34 PM)

How does one respond to Malachi 3:8-10?

quote:


Malachi
3:8
"Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, 'In what way have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings.
3:9
You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation.
3:10
Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, That there may be food in My house, And try Me now in this," Says the Lord of hosts, "If I will not open for you the windows of heaven And pour out for you such blessing That there will not be room enough to receive it.



caur -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/26/2005 1:55:01 PM)

Tithing is giving of your firstfruits. It is not a false doctrine. God gave of His firstfruits and teaches and emphasizes and re-emphasizes the principle throughout the Bible. Christ was the firstfruits. The firstborn of many brethren. Also, concerning doctrine. The entire Bible is good for doctrine, not what we pick and choose. Malachi is hard to dispute. Just look at Abraham and what He did with his firstfruits. Of course, you can wrongly throw out the old testament. To do so is to break the foundation of the New Testament, which quotes the old testament extensively and brings insight to the principles laid down in the old testament. God said that He gave us examples. We should live by those examples.

God tells us to give as we are led. Each believer is to work with the Lord concerning the matter. Not only does God want us to tithe, He gave a promise concerning it to encourage us to do so. I don't care one little bit whether someone tithes or not. That is between them and God. The doctrine of tithing is sound and Paul even makes mention that the workman is worthy of his hire.

As far as misuse of tithe, God makes it plain to bring it into the storehouse. The central collection point of the believer is the Church. If you don't think your church is capable of doing the will of God with the tithe, why would you even attend there? If you can't be faithful with physical treasure, how are you going to deal with spiritual treasure which has infinite value and never passes away?

I say tithing and giving because the two are different. You tithe because God commands it. You give because you want to help others (which is commanded, as well). It is a win/win situation. God promises a blessing to those who tithe (I prefer spiritual blessing FYI not physical blessing but leave the blessing up to God) AND God loves a cheerful giver and will remember those that give. Giving and trusting are central to a Christ-like character. Remember Christ's comment about the poor widow that gave all she had? She gave more than a tenth. Christ, with that example, helps us to remember that earthly riches are temporal and that the act of giving is not.

Honestly, the only thing I want is to be like Jesus. Jesus gave everything for me. I don't have some teacher or preacher giving me sermons on tithing. I have God, in a very personal way, encouraging me to tithe. If He is the one telling me (and His communications are unmistakeable) to tithe, then I do well to obey.



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/26/2005 1:59:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin

How does one respond to Malachi 3:8-10?

quote:


Malachi
3:8
"Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, 'In what way have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings.
3:9
You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation.
3:10
Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, That there may be food in My house, And try Me now in this," Says the Lord of hosts, "If I will not open for you the windows of heaven And pour out for you such blessing That there will not be room enough to receive it.



First take a look at the passage itself... The wording is paste tense... You have robbed me...

Next look at "you are cursed" who is cursed... The people God was talking to "THE WHOLE NATION"...

We today (Christians) have not done this thing (literally) that Mal 3 is addressing.
God associates tithe here with people and nation and has cursed the people and nation. For What...
Not following the law. If you trangress one point in the law you are guilty of all.

God ordianed the law, this law was to be followed and tithing was a part. It was a big part... It kept the nation going by supporting most things a nation supports at the national level. Because they stopped doing the requirements of the law, especially tithing the Levites and priests had to leave the temple and return to things that allowed them to support themselves. There by causing a domino effect leading to the complete disruption of the nation.

There is no question that this tithe in Mal 3 is the Levitical tithe. The regulated giving required within the confines of the nation. Tithes that were not paid prior to this time or after. Jews to this day still do not tithe per Mal 3.

Further more no Apostle ever used Mal 3 in context about giving or funding the church in the New Testament. If they could teach about the subjects perfectly well then so can we. The teaching comes form the same source after all.

Do a study on the storehouse. This is a misintrepreted concept today. The storehouse refered to was a national storehouse. They existed all over the country and in each community. It was not a big room in the temple that contained the whole of the tithe. It was also not "the church" as tithes were stored also at home. It was set aside by people for people. It was collected only from the land. The land that was first given by God to the people as a nation. It was reserved things used as directed by God in the law.

A law that Jesus fulfilled perfectly. Our giving is something different that is the true front to back Biblical principle that is way over the tithe.



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/26/2005 2:31:06 PM)

To get a better picture of this... Image your a Jew after Jesus's atonement and you convert to Christianity.

Would you pay tithes if you were a farmer, Yes... Why? Because it was the law. But as the Church we don't keep the law as it pertains to Church... That law was for a different purpose and had nothing to do with Church. It was the law of the land.



heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/26/2005 11:39:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin

How does one respond to Malachi 3:8-10?


Perhaps the same way we would any of the other 600+ Laws those same people were required to obey, and we are not. Besides, how will you take your tithe to the temple storehouse when it no longer exists? If you think your institutional "church" is the replacement for the temple storehouse, what scriptural authority are you going to rely upon that indicates this to be the Lord's desire? I can't find anything similar to what we see around us today anywhere within the pages of the NT. If organized religion is the proper depository of the primary portion of our giving, then why do most institutions do with it what is completely contrary to biblical example and commands? After all, 100% of the tithe went for meeting needs, not for what we see today.

By the way, I disagree with John MacArthur. He too made the same blunder that many others have made. The tithe was food, and only one allownace was made for it to be converted to money by the tither. Apart from that one rare allowance, it was always food (herds and produce). There's no command anywhere in God's Law for the wage earner to give 10% of his wages. The belief that all the people payed tithes is nothing but pure fantasy, because wages were never classified as a form of increase. Wages were/are a direct exchange of time and labor for money.

BTW



LordComeQuickly -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/27/2005 12:24:52 AM)

I have read through the speculation/opinion/scripture on this forum, and I have been studying the Word on my own to try to come up with a sound, scriptural answer.

Please do not assume that because someone questions 'tithing as we know it' that we are just trying to find an excuse not to tithe. I am fully aware that everything I have is the Lord's. But does the bible not say to "prove all things" ?? I think it would be foolish to follow this blindly, regardless of how you are convicted.

If I were prideful, I might be offended by HK's posts, but I appreciate being challenged to read scripture, pray, and truly seek God's help in this subject. I think it is pride, only because some of the posts sound like people who are boasting of their works. God bestows His blessings (and trials) based solely on His sovreign will.

I read this scripture today, so please correct me if I have taken this out of context:

Matthew 23:13-23, where He is denouncing the Pharisees and Scribes for their hypocricy and their outward apparance of 'religion'...

:17 "Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifyeth the gold?

:18 "And whosoever shall swear by the altar it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it is guilty"

:19 "Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?"


It sounds to me (correct me if I am wrong) that Jesus is speaking against the religious people who put more faith in their gift, and their ability to give, then they do to the One who sanctifies us. In the prayer of the publican and the sinner, God is more pleased by the humble admittance by the sinner, that doesnt try to wow God with how 'good' he is, but acknowledges that he is and has nothing to offer, but pleads for God's mercy.
I am not disagreeing with giving gladly, from the heart, but a lot of you sound to me like you feel justified because of what you give/do.

Here is a question to those who like to mention 'first fruits', and I am sencerely asking here, wouldnt that mean everything, not just cash???? I have a garden now, so I am honestly asking, do I give the first fruits of my veggies?? I actually tried bringing in some veggies to church, and the woman at the desk looked at me like I was crazy, and a moron.

Arent most of the churches that are preaching on the law of tithing preaching on Sunday? If we are going to keep the law, why arent we recognizing the Sabbath?? (guess that may be a whole other thread), but if we are not to be cafeteria-christians, going thru this bible and picking and choosing what we want to adhere to, why do we pick and choose certain of the Jewish laws??

I am truly seeking here, not trying to get out of giving. I have some issues though. For instance, every church that Ive attended makes a big deal around Christmas time about sending toys to the poor, and shoes to the needy, but the rest of the year, the focus is on the community center being built. That should be an ongoing emphasis of our church, but it's not. So if we know that we will be accountable for what God has given us, then shouldnt we make sure that we are using it for His glory, and not ours??



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/27/2005 7:42:53 AM)

quote:

How does one respond to Malachi 3:8-10?

quote:


Malachi
3:8
"Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, 'In what way have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings.
3:9
You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation.
3:10
Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, That there may be food in My house, And try Me now in this," Says the Lord of hosts, "If I will not open for you the windows of heaven And pour out for you such blessing That there will not be room enough to receive it.


Verse 1 chapter 1 where God says I have loved you. And the fools reply was how have you loved us.

Reading the entire passage of Malachi one sees that God is God. Man is to be in obedience to God and the obedience "should" have come from a heart that loved God because God first loved them. Instead they held contempt for God and even said evil about God in giving their foolish ignorant opinions and actions.

Robbing God is about withholding from Him what should go to him and seeking excuses to do so. There "is" no excuse to withhold from God what belongs to him. Make no mistake God knows one's heart and any exucse cannot stand up to the Lord.

The last paragraph in the book shows us how the righteous will responded.

We also see "again" the principle that God corrects those who are in disobedience to him and rewards those who are in obedience to him. We are no longer under the "curse" if we are saved but that does not mean that God does not correct us when we are disobedient to Him. (one sign to see if you are is child is if he corrects you)

(BTW they were under foreign rule so this had NOTHING to do with the government it ONLY had to do with the place and people who were selected by God to carry out his work on earth - the temple at this time contained the ONLY storehouse - to understand the history of this time one must have studied all the books of histoy. Most scholars believe Mal. was the prophet sent during the time around Neh. 13 but inorder to understand Neh 13 you need to have read and understood the books of history which came before this time.
Note God did not say you are robbing the needy or the government rather you are robbing ME. spiritural concept here.)

quote:

Matthew 23:13-23, where He is denouncing the Pharisees and Scribes for their hypocricy and their outward apparance of 'religion'...

:17 "Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifyeth the gold?

:18 "And whosoever shall swear by the altar it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it is guilty"

:19 "Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?"


It sounds to me (correct me if I am wrong) that Jesus is speaking against the religious people who put more faith in their gift, and their ability to give, then they do to the One who sanctifies us.


This passage is about being untrustworthy in our words. It's about twisting our words so that we can get out of doing what we said we would do.

quote:

In the prayer of the publican and the sinner, God is more pleased by the humble admittance by the sinner, that doesnt try to wow God with how 'good' he is, but acknowledges that he is and has nothing to offer, but pleads for God's mercy.
I am not disagreeing with giving gladly, from the heart, but a lot of you sound to me like you feel justified because of what you give/do.


The problem with the prayer, fasting and giving of the Pharasees was that they did it for the Praise of Man. Jesus told us to give, pray and fast to give God glory not seek it for ourselves. I don't know of people who give in Church who stand and announce how much they are giving. In the churches I have attended it's a time or prayer and worship so that God is magnified and not the giver.

quote:

Here is a question to those who like to mention 'first fruits', and I am sencerely asking here, wouldnt that mean everything, not just cash???? I have a garden now, so I am honestly asking, do I give the first fruits of my veggies?? I actually tried bringing in some veggies to church, and the woman at the desk looked at me like I was crazy, and a moron.


The principle of first fruits mean we give to God what is the BEST we have. It's the "first" of our increase. Worthy gifts to God. (read the entire book of Malachi to understand this better and think about "who God IS". We don't give God our "left overs". Nothing is to come before God. We give him our first and best. (reflection of how one views God) The principle of the tithe is to give off our increase. Giving money in stead of wood, land, jewerly, family possessions, businesses, stocks, produce, etc. is how most people handle the situation you faced. Some people who live in the country do tithe in the way you mentioned. It is common in my church for people to share their produce in this way but it is oftentimes beyond the tithe and is a way to help the poor in our church.



quote:

Arent most of the churches that are preaching on the law of tithing preaching on Sunday?
I have never attended a church that preached the tithe law so I can't reply to this. All the churches I have attended teach the tithe principle.

quote:

I am truly seeking here, not trying to get out of giving. I have some issues though.
Then I would suggest you take this up with the leadership of your church. I can't respond to this because I don't know if your church budget gives money to missions every week, has a benevolance fund and the like. Eli's son's were doing terrible things with the tithes and offerings. God held Eli and his son's responsible for what they did wrong. Leaders will be judged by a higher standard than those under them. We each will stand before God alone and give an account whether we were obedient to him or not.

Nehemiah 13 goes with the passage from Malachi where God told the people they were robbing him. Notice the temple priest was DOING WRONG but God still had his prophet Malachi say they were robbing from Him. God corrects folks we don't. We just obey God and trust that He will work all things out to our good and His Glory as long as we obey him.

6 While all this was happening, I was not in Jerusalem, because I had returned to King Artaxerxes of Babylon in the thirty-second year of his [reign]. It was only later that I asked the king for a leave of absence 7 so I could return to Jerusalem. Then I discovered the evil that Eliashib had done on behalf of Tobiah by providing him a room in the courts of God's house. 8 I was greatly displeased and threw all of Tobiah's household possessions out of the room. 9 I ordered that the rooms be purified, and I had the articles of the house of God restored there, along with the grain offering and frankincense.

10 I also found out that because the portions for the Levites had not been given, each of the Levites and the singers performing the service had gone back to his own field. 11 Therefore, I rebuked the officials, saying, "Why has the house of God been neglected?" I gathered the Levites and singers together and stationed them at their posts. 12 Then all Judah brought a tenth of the grain, new wine, and oil into the storehouses. 13 I appointed as treasurers over the storehouses Shelemiah the priest, Zadok the scribe, and Pedaiah of the Levites, with Hanan son of Zaccur, son of Mattaniah to assist them, because they were considered trustworthy. They were responsible for the distribution to their colleagues


__________

To understand the tithe principle and the principle of the first friuts you have to focue on God. Fear of the Lord "is the beginning" of wisdom and all kinds of understanding.

ALL scripture must be studied from a heart that is in awe of our Holy Perfect God and His Son. A heart that is seeking to know and understand God's ways and a heart that is desiring to obey Him.......blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness.

Make no mistake it's about God (not the needy, the poor, the church, our circumstances, the wicked, the lost, the leadership, or anything else we like to turn our attention to.

It's about GOD.



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