Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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Fritzpw_Admin -> Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/2/2005 1:37:03 PM)

What is the purpose of tithing and how is it relevant to the believer today?

What constitutes a tithe and is it the same for everyone?

Should I give even if I can't afford it?

Does tithe always have to be monetary?

This is the One Stop Thread for all things to do with tithes and offerings.



notmycity -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/2/2005 2:16:03 PM)

(This is moved over from the previous thread)
Let’s see what scripture really says about this often-misunderstood topic:

Tithing was required for the children of Israel, under the Mosaic law. The purpose of tithing was to meet the needs of Levites, the stranger, the fatherless, and widows. (Deut. 26:12-13). In the NT the words “tithe” and “tithes” appear in Matt. 23:23; Luke 11:42; 18:12; and Heb. 7:5-6,8-9. All NT passages refer to the OT and Old Covenant use and to the current Jewish practice of the time. Nowhere does the N T command, instruct or even suggest that Christians should tithe. Giving is to be voluntary, cheerful and is a matter of the heart according to the NT teachings.

“Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord. Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
Have we not power to eat and to drink? Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working? Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.”
1 Cor 9:1-14

Please notice (above) that here the Mosaic law IS cited (v.9), but no mention of the tithe.

“Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.”
1 Cor 16:1-3

Still more NT instruction on giving, but again, no actual amount is suggested, and neither is tithing.

2 Cor ch. 8-9 mentions more on Christian giving, and it’s very interesting to note a few things”

“For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.” 2 Cor 8:13-15

Those who preach the tithe have often ignored these passages, but rather abuse a few choice OT passages to foist a scripturally and doctrinally unfounded burden on their flock.

“Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.
But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.” 2 Cor 9:5-7

Notice in v. 7 we’re not to give of necessity. Doing anything to comply with a law is “of necessity”. Tithing because some preacher tells you to (while using scripture out of context) is done “of necessity.

We as Christians ARE instructed to give cheerfully and from the heart. There are some who have “purposed in their hearts” to tithe, that’s perfectly fine, provided that it isn’t done “of necessity” or “grudgingly”, but rather cheerfully and willingly.

As for preaching/teaching and requiring that the tithe has application for Christians, there is simply NO NT backing for this under the New Covenant.

We are called to provide for our own families’ need first (1 Tim 5:8). We are then called to minister to “the household of faith” (Galatians 6:10) We are called to help widows and orphans (James 1:27) , to support our local fellowship local fellowship (1 Cor 16:1-3) and even find some additional ministries to help along the way (financially, and any other way we can) (2 Cor 8:13-15). This is what we are called to do as Christians/disciples. Tithing is not. Hope that helps. [:)]



peace77 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/2/2005 2:43:25 PM)

The tithe or gift to the local church does not have to be in cash. The Jews gave of their produce, their flocks and the work of their hands.

There are many ways that we can give including: Serving in the nursery or Children's church.
Teaching a class,
Performing a service or work that in some way assists the pastor or worship leader during the church service.
Perform some other service for the church that the church might otherwise have to pay to have done. This could include cleaning the church, caring for the landscaping or auditing the books.

Assist the pastor or his staff during the week in whatever they need help with which could include:
visiting those who are sick or shut-in in their homes, hospital rooms, hospice or nursing home.
Calling on those who have visited the church.

Helping another church member who is having a difficult time with meals or other needs.

Peace,
Anne



bobservations -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/5/2005 8:08:15 AM)

notmycity, You have perfectly said the truth. Pastors who thump tithing are putting guilt trips on those who have not studied the Word. I believe it is a form of extortion or extraction. They are forcing the poor to give behond their means and not teaching the wealthy to give according to their means. Peace, boB



jerseyguy -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/5/2005 2:17:27 PM)

I'm not sure where I stand on what manner to preach about giving, but I'll tell you this - as the treasurer of a church - the church is a physical building with bills that must be paid. A LOT of the congregation must think it just "takes care of itself" (based on what comes in and from how many varied parties), and I think they need to be made aware of what it takes to keep their place of worship running..



heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/7/2005 5:23:16 PM)

Most organizations have a purpose and an objective, and to achieve these objectives, there needs to be procedures and resources. The resources would include money, men and machinery. In the case of religions, the men and machinery combine in the form of missionaries. When we have too many men for the same purpose, a hierarchy sets in, and when we have a hierarchy, there would naturally be division of work and responsibilities. So, as Men of God empower themselves with power and money, all the problems associated with an organization also find their way into the system.

Most organizations are effective and depending upon the will and morale of the people involved, it will deliver the results. If we bother to look around, we find that the best organizations are those with the most effective people on top. What needs to be understood here is that effectiveness and efficiency have nothing much to do with being virtuous. In fact, we find this true most of the time, i.e. the virtuous ones are never the most effective ones. It's this simple fact that makes it dangerous for us to shroud religion with any organizational clothing.

Religion, as a process, has more to do with the human mind than body. Though human beings can be highly deceptive at times in suppressing their thoughts, it's essentially the way one thinks that comes out as action. Religions and true religious leaders have always motivated us to indulge only in noble thoughts and virtuous actions. It's therefore highly imperative that such religious processes always be led by virtuous leaders rather than efficient and effective ones. The inevitability of any organizational approach is exactly the opposite of this essential criterion. The moment we combine religion with organization, the latter aspect starts dominating, and ‘unwanted’ elements will always come to the top. All the shameful news (pedophilia, etc.) we hear about within organized religions these days are basically reflections of this unholy amalgamation.

Therefore we have in our midst a historic practice so deeply set into the foundations of most people's understanding that the majority of the masses are unable to think outside the box of religious conventionality. The broad acceptance of pouring the primary portion of one's giving into religious organizations, rather than following the biblical examples and commands, continues merrily onward as is evidenced by the increasing numbers of large mega-churches and architecturally sophisticated structures in the place of simple construction that suits the intended purpose. This speaks of the fact that we have an increasing number of efficient and successful organizers, but who lack biblical, moral virtue. If they had the virtues exemplified by God's word, they would desire upholding the many examples and commands concerning the priorities in giving by meeintg needs long before pouring one red cent of it into things that will perish with this world. Elevating organizational considerations above that of meeting needs is a naked exposure of the severe lack of moral virtue in those who lead within such organizations.

HK



heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/7/2005 5:58:49 PM)

quote:

Eutychus had this to say before the other thread was shut down:

I keep seeing the argument that if you are giving your tithes and offerings through your church, then your offerings aren't being used exclusively to meet REAL needs; a good part is being used to pay for utilities, a building, feeding and clothing the staff.


First of all, this is a manipulative misrepresentation of what was actually said. Nobody said that our giving had to be used exclusively for meeting REAL needs.

quote:

(What's the big deal to you if tithes and offerings don't apply today? I might as well give it there as to buy a condo at the beach to bring temporal pleasure to just my family and myself. But I digress.)


This is a straw man that, again, fails to deal with the truth of what was being put forth.

quote:

Statistics bear this out, the portion of money of those who tithe and beyond that is going directly to minister to individuals in need still surpasses 97% of church members who don't set aside at least 10% in regular giving.


False premises. There is no biblical mandate requiring anyone to hand over 10% of their earnings over to man-made, organized religion. Ministering to individuals is not the primary focus of giving anywhere in the Bible. The primary portion of people's giving, first and foremost, was exercised for the purpose of meeting needs, above all else. Can you show us what authority establishes that institutional church organizations are anywhere near being on equal footing with biblical mandates for provision?

quote:

The "give when the urge hits you" philosophy sounds pleasing to the ear, but I submit it is mostly hollow posturing and its basis is usually Paul's remarks on a need outside the local church.


Another straw man. Also, the local Church is defined NOT by buildings and organizational structuring. Thus the flaw in your application of Paul's words.

quote:

In the final analysis, IMO, those who at least tithe through their church are directly ministering to far more in need than those who don't.


Yes, I can see it now: The hungry merely walk by your "church" building, and their little stomachs suddenly, miraculously become filled so that they can go and be a greater blessing to others.

quote:

IOW, I'm not the least impressed with the philosophy of just undisciplined giving.


Are you saying that casting aside the legalistic aspect of your system of giving is a matter of being undisciplined?

quote:

There should be ample room in every believer's heart to give of their material blessings to those God leads us to help beyond regular offerings to our local church.


You haven't even one shred of biblical backing for this nonsense! If your "local church" (so-called) is built upon the foundation of money, then it's not a genuine expression of Christ's Church, but rather a testament to the love of physical manifestations of a congrgation's pride in material things. You're admittedly making the meeting of needs secondary to the institution and its expenditures. This is completely antithetical to biblical examples and commands.

quote:

There aren't a lot of financially strapped people who visit my door or cross my path during the course of the day, unless I already know them and they are willing to share their need with me.


It sounds like you live a very sheltered life.

quote:

IOW, my church is better equipped to see and respond to needs than most of the rest of the members who spend the majority of their day in the workplace.


We could justify almost anything with this kind of reasoning. Ability will never serve as an adequate apologetic for antithetical actions. I may have the ability to steal from my neighbor, but that certainly doesn't make it right. Organized religion has been robbing the needy for almost 17 centuries. Why the antiquity of this practice somehow justifies it in the minds of the masses completely escapes me.

quote:

Questions:
Do you feel like it is an unreasonable burden to be generous to individuals directly AND to give disciplined offerings through the local church?


I stated before, and I'll state it again: I have no problem with a group of people having a building in common so long as their support of that thing and its operations is secondary to the meeting of genuine needs.

HK



christiancapitalist -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/7/2005 7:47:42 PM)

i tithe for several reasons.

1. i believe in my church.
-on a regular basis, i'm seeing lives changed, marriages renewed, people being healed. my church is bearing good fruit. how can i not support it?

2. i believe it is for the new testament church
-when i study the old testament, and the transition to the new testament, i've noticed a trend. any standard that was put into place in the old testament is usually made more tasking on the individual in the new. for example, in the old testament, i can't kill my brother. in the new, i have to love him. in the old testament, i couldn't commit adultery. in the new, i can't lust with my eyes. why should the amount i give be less in the new testament? i believe as well, in matt 22:21, where jesus says to render unto God the things that are God's, he is refering to the tithe.

3. blessing has followed the tithe.
-in my life, i have never been without. in fact, i've been blessed financially on many occasions. mal 3:8-10. is it old testament? yes. but why wouldn't it apply to me today?

some will disagree with me, but i believe that the tithe is only the beginning. to me, it is nothing. i want to be in a postion to some day give away 90% of what i make. i want to give freely to those in need. i want to support my church in spreading the gospel of jesus christ. in our world, pornography is a 10 billion dollar a year industry (forbes magazine), christians are still bickering over whether or not we should tithe. as a great pastor put it, "the church is the hope of the world, and it's future lies in the hands of it's leaders". i give my tithe to my church so one less person will go to hell. that is reason enough for me.



Rufas2000 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/7/2005 9:27:44 PM)

Referencing post 7, wouldn't it be useful to put the original post from Eutyches up instead of selected quotes.

quote:

Yes, I can see it now: The hungry merely walk by your "church" building, and their little stomachs suddenly, miraculously become filled so that they can go and be a greater blessing to others.


bit of a cheap shot, eh? ("little stomachs")

also a bit prideful to think that a single individual can accomplish more with his money (and time) then a larger organization that can pull its resources together and be more effective in their ministry.

While I agree that its a bit self serving for pastors to do the annual series of sermoins on tithing and that it may not be NT law, I think its a good standard and should go to your local church. If you feel compelled to stay at a church where you disagree with how the finances are dealt with then give to a cause you feel is right (with much prayer of course). There is nothing wrong with churches having nice buildings and such, many good things (food drives, special events to bring in the unchurched etc.) require said buildings.

quote:

some will disagree with me, but i believe that the tithe is only the beginning. to me, it is nothing. i want to be in a postion to some day give away 90% of what i make.


won't be me disagreeing, much respect for that attitude. Something I could stand to emulate.


God bless everyone.



Lapidoth -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/8/2005 10:24:53 AM)

I appreciate the aid to Euty. He has some pretty good insights.

I'd like to make an observation and I hope no one takes it as a cheap shot.

This is one of those topics like many others which become heated arguments
and we accuse each other of being stupid and to the point of not being Christian.

All parties are very sincere, but many if not most are sincerely wrong.
I have found myself on many occasions of being "sincerely" wrong.

In respects to familiarities of the other topics it comes to our definition of same
and/or mind set and indoctrination.

The Bible does not teach "tithing."
I could never fully understand the topic of tithing because I was also studying tithing.
But when you realize the "principles" the Bible teaches, all things fall into place.

The Bible teaches {firstfruits}. Which is designated to be one tenth.
Not just one tenth, but the first tenth; which makes it the first fruits.

In studying the New Testament you are sure to notice that Jesus Christ is the firstfruit
from the dead. Which makes it possible for us to share in His resurrection.
From the principle of firstfruits, we then can see that Jesus was God's tithe.
For God so loved the world that He gave.
It doesn't take a mathmetician to know that there have been more than ten saved.
But the principle is firstfruits.

The {tithe} or money is just a heart test that the majority of us fail.
Jesus said that where your treasure is, there your heart is.
If your heart is in God, your resources are there.
If your time is at the lake and not the church, that's where your heart it.

But of course, we live in an era of opinions and denial.
I was never in denial, I just didn't understand.
My greatest reward in applying this principle for me was the understanding
that followed more than the rewards. Not the blab-it-grab-it junk, but God
rebuking the devourer for my sake, the 90 percent being blessed, etc. etc.

so, etc. etc. etc.



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/8/2005 12:07:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkeigley

I appreciate the aid to Euty. He has some pretty good insights.

I'd like to make an observation and I hope no one takes it as a cheap shot.

This is one of those topics like many others which become heated arguments
and we accuse each other of being stupid and to the point of not being Christian.

All parties are very sincere, but many if not most are sincerely wrong.
I have found myself on many occasions of being "sincerely" wrong.

In respects to familiarities of the other topics it comes to our definition of same
and/or mind set and indoctrination.

The Bible does not teach "tithing."
I could never fully understand the topic of tithing because I was also studying tithing.
But when you realize the "principles" the Bible teaches, all things fall into place.

The Bible teaches {firstfruits}. Which is designated to be one tenth.
Not just one tenth, but the first tenth; which makes it the first fruits.

In studying the New Testament you are sure to notice that Jesus Christ is the firstfruit
from the dead. Which makes it possible for us to share in His resurrection.
From the principle of firstfruits, we then can see that Jesus was God's tithe.
For God so loved the world that He gave.
It doesn't take a mathmetician to know that there have been more than ten saved.
But the principle is firstfruits.

The {tithe} or money is just a heart test that the majority of us fail.
Jesus said that where your treasure is, there your heart is.
If your heart is in God, your resources are there.
If your time is at the lake and not the church, that's where your heart it.

But of course, we live in an era of opinions and denial.
I was never in denial, I just didn't understand.
My greatest reward in applying this principle for me was the understanding
that followed more than the rewards. Not the blab-it-grab-it junk, but God
rebuking the devourer for my sake, the 90 percent being blessed, etc. etc.

so, etc. etc. etc.


Well I've been comtemplating this a while... I agree about the heated topic. Everyone has an opinion and will stand their ground to the bitter end. Right or wrong.

Many base thier concepts about this subjevt on definitions and what someone eklse said rather than on fully studying and understanding the Word God gave on the subject.

The statement "The tithe is not for NT Christians" for example.

This statement is right and wrong. No play on word... Most just don't understand enough of God Principles to put the tithe were it belongs.

If you study without blinders on... (sorry not jab intended but it is needed).
In the OT we will not see that the tithe was "For the Church" or any such statement tithe supporters like to make. The OT gives us examples of funding the building and operation of "the Church" / "Tabernacle" / "Temple". Never was a tithe used for the purpose. Self-empossed taxes, voluntary service and contributions have always been the example.

The tithe was for the nation, local and national taxing. A system set up to be the wages of the working government at the time, to offer assistance to those in need and another tithe used for feast and celebration at an appointed time and place. None went to the things we say the majority must go for today.

So yes the tithe is for today in the form of national support (taxes) just as it has always been. This is the "windows of heaven opening wide tithe" as evidenced by the strong nation we live in today.
The church has always been supported on voluntary contributions from the heart.


Concerning first fruits... There was only one Jesus if you look into the OT first fruits are clearly the first of something. The first male offspring... just one not every tenth... Comparing first fruits and saying it is a tithe is a major error.



Lapidoth -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/8/2005 1:13:15 PM)

Not in defence of the "tithe", but I am playing advocate here.

So if I give my FIRST Penny to the Church, then I am done with
any moral obligations?

When Paul instructed the church to bring an offering in "proportion"
(%?) of what they earned on the FIRST day of the week, the members
could decide for themselves what the (%) was?

Some of the statements were made in the early church based on common
understanding. But now, we use the statements to mean something different?

Principles remain the same. God never changes.

Another huge [debate] is whether what was immoral 50 years ago is still immoral.
I don't think it matters as much what the topic is, but how far we have strayed from the
intent of God's Word on any topic.

We all have {hard} hearts in one area or another.
It is good if we have hard hearts about a topic and not towards one another.
We serve a merciful, gracious, wonderful, exalted, glorious LORD and Savior.
Man looks on the outward, God looks at the heart. That is a comfort for us all.



heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/8/2005 4:03:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: christiancapitalist

i tithe for several reasons.

1. i believe in my church.
-on a regular basis, i'm seeing lives changed, marriages renewed, people being healed. my church is bearing good fruit. how can i not support it?


This isn't about not supporting your local institution. This is about adhering to the biblical principles of which so many people speak with such reverence, and yet ignore in actual practice.

quote:

2. i believe it is for the new testament church
-when i study the old testament, and the transition to the new testament, i've noticed a trend. any standard that was put into place in the old testament is usually made more tasking on the individual in the new.


Then how do you justify doing with your tithe what is contrary to the examples and commands in the OT? Why do you suppose your church organization is exempt from those very same Laws that govern how the tithe was to be handled?

quote:

for example, in the old testament, i can't kill my brother. in the new, i have to love him. in the old testament, i couldn't commit adultery. in the new, i can't lust with my eyes.


I don'd see where Jesus created some new Laws or standards in the NT. Do you honestly think that a man in OT times could lust after a woman in his heart, and not be guilty of sin? Sin was never, even in the OT times, limited strictly to what could be visually observed with the eyes. I can't find where God's moral Law changed one bit with the coming of Christ. Jesus harangued the pharasees for their adherence to the letter of the Law, rather than the Spirit behind the Law, to Whom He pointed.

quote:

why should the amount i give be less in the new testament?


This was never about the amount, but rather about priorities.

quote:

i believe as well, in matt 22:21, where jesus says to render unto God the things that are God's, he is refering to the tithe.


The text certainly doesn't reflect that. The tithe wasn't at all the topic of discussion in the context of those passages. Can you show me where the Law required Jesus, His disciples, or any of the wage eanrers in that entire nation around Him were required to pay a tithe? The Law laid no requirement for wage earners to pay a tithe, so what authority are you relying upon to put forth what you've just said as fact?

quote:

3. blessing has followed the tithe.
-in my life, i have never been without. in fact, i've been blessed financially on many occasions. mal 3:8-10. is it old testament? yes. but why wouldn't it apply to me today?


And if you had experienced hardships, as many others have experienced who tithed faithfull, what would you then be saying?

quote:

some will disagree with me, but i believe that the tithe is only the beginning. to me, it is nothing.


This is part of what brings into sharp contrast the difference between the OT tithe and what is called the tithe today. In OT times, it was a tenth of the increase of the crops and herds, not of the wage earner's salary. Today, it's completely the other way around. What authority does one rely upon for support of such a reversal?

quote:

i want to be in a postion to some day give away 90% of what i make. i want to give freely to those in need.


Why not give to those in need now? What's stopping you? 100% of the OT tithe went for meeting needs back then, so why shouldn't it be that way now? Why waste it on real estate and buildings? Those things don't feed the hungry. We can collectively be just as effective for the lost and the needy without those extravagant expenditures, can't we?

quote:

i want to support my church in spreading the gospel of jesus christ.


Why not support Christ in doing that? [:D]

quote:

in our world, pornography is a 10 billion dollar a year industry (forbes magazine), christians are still bickering over whether or not we should tithe. as a great pastor put it, "the church is the hope of the world, and it's future lies in the hands of it's leaders".


What does porn have to do with the tithe? Besides, it's "pastors" who are perpetuating this tradition of stealing from the needy in order to acquire real estate and errect buildings with what should be used to meet needs.

quote:

i give my tithe to my church so one less person will go to hell. that is reason enough for me.


People are saved in spite of organized religion and its luxuries, not because of it.

HK



heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/8/2005 4:31:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rufas2000

Referencing post 7, wouldn't it be useful to put the original post from Eutyches up instead of selected quotes.


Do you believe I did something different than what is common practice in forums? Was there any impropriety?

quote:

bit of a cheap shot, eh? ("little stomachs")


If that's your perception of what I said, then that's your perception, not my intention.

quote:

also a bit prideful to think that a single individual can accomplish more with his money (and time) then a larger organization that can pull its resources together and be more effective in their ministry.


Perhaps you would have a point if this were what I were trying to say. You might try reading what I actually said rather than injecting into my meaning of which there was never even a hint.

quote:

While I agree that its a bit self serving for pastors to do the annual series of sermoins on tithing and that it may not be NT law, I think its a good standard and should go to your local church.


I take my hat off to you. At least you're honest enough to qualify this with "I think," rather than what's not written in God's word.

quote:

There is nothing wrong with churches having nice buildings and such,


I never said there was something wrong with having such things in and of themselves, but when those things come at the exspense of robbing the needy, then I'd say there's a problem.

quote:

many good things (food drives, special events to bring in the unchurched etc.) require said buildings.


We can collectively accomplish all those same things without having to own fancy buildings.

HK



heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/8/2005 5:03:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkeigley

Not in defence of the "tithe", but I am playing advocate here.

So if I give my FIRST Penny to the Church, then I am done with any moral obligations?


Where does the Bible describe any moral obligation to give anything to support organized religion?

quote:

When Paul instructed the church to bring an offering in "proportion" (%?) of what they earned on the FIRST day of the week, the members could decide for themselves what the (%) was?


What verseion of the Bible do you have? No version I have at my disposal says any such thing. Where did you get this?

quote:

Some of the statements were made in the early church based on common understanding. But now, we use the statements to mean something different?

Principles remain the same. God never changes.


The problem with the concept of a "principle" is that it's can be so subjective.

quote:

Another huge [debate] is whether what was immoral 50 years ago is still immoral. I don't think it matters as much what the topic is, but how far we have strayed from the intent of God's Word on any topic.


Very true.

quote:

We all have {hard} hearts in one area or another.
It is good if we have hard hearts about a topic and not towards one another.
We serve a merciful, gracious, wonderful, exalted, glorious LORD and Savior.
Man looks on the outward, God looks at the heart. That is a comfort for us all.


Amen.

HK



christiancapitalist -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/8/2005 8:57:14 PM)

[/quote]
People are saved in spite of organized religion and its luxuries, not because of it.

HK
[/quote]

i beg to differ. 4 years ago, our church endeavored to build a building to reach the "disconnected generation". we built a building around showing the lost that relationships are more important than tradition, church doesnt have to be sitting around on pews, listening to an out of tune pipe organ playing kumbaya. we posted ads in university ads with sayings such as, "this is church?". as a result, we've seen hundreds of young people become saved, and are learning to become deciples of christ. that is what my tithe has done. i don't know what organized church you've been to, but it's obviousely outdated and ineffective. welcome to the 21 centurty.

http://www.springschurch.org/Locations/725/725.html



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/8/2005 9:44:03 PM)

quote:


quote:

When Paul instructed the church to bring an offering in "proportion" (%?) of what they earned on the FIRST day of the week, the members could decide for themselves what the (%) was?

What verseion of the Bible do you have? No version I have at my disposal says any such thing. Where did you get this?


----------------------

Look at:
1 Cor 16:1-3
1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
KJV

This is probably where the misinformation about a proportion of increase was interpreted from.

This does not talk of a percentage or "portion" it talks about an amount that God has prospered you to give. All of it not just part or a percentage. It is the same as "as each purposeth in his heart to give"... The exact same meaning. It has nothing to do with a tithe at all.

If God prospers you $20 dollars to give then give it. If it's $100 then give it. That is what it means.



heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/8/2005 9:58:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: christiancapitalist

i beg to differ. 4 years ago, our church endeavored to build a building to reach the "disconnected generation". we built a building around showing the lost that relationships are more important than tradition, church doesnt have to be sitting around on pews, listening to an out of tune pipe organ playing kumbaya. we posted ads in university ads with sayings such as, "this is church?". as a result, we've seen hundreds of young people become saved, and are learning to become deciples of christ. that is what my tithe has done. i don't know what organized church you've been to, but it's obviousely outdated and ineffective. welcome to the 21 centurty.


I never thought I would see the day when a religionist would be so...bold...as to declare that they errected a mere building to bring anyone to salvation. We can justify just about anything, can't we? Wow. I don't know what kind of salvation you led them to, but if that building was the basis of their wanting to seek slavation, then I can't help but to wonder what manner of savior they found, and where they'll be in five years, or ten or... If I'm understanding your meaning, then...whew. Words escape me.

Oh, and don't worry, I'm not a member of organized religion. I walked away from that quite some time ago. I just couldn't find any support in the word of God for any requirement to be a part of today's system of organized religion and its anti-biblical use of believer's primary giving for its own luxuries rather than the meeting of needs.

Tell me: How can someone who exalts the prinicples of the OT Law governing tithes, knowing full well that 100% of that tithe went for the meeting of needs, turn right around and in good conscience do what is contrary to that very Law, and support something that is doing what is contrary to that very Law? Is there a coherent, logical reason for that? I sure can't think of one. Can you help me out here?

HK



Incompre_Tertu -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/9/2005 12:19:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heavenskeys

quote:

ORIGINAL: christiancapitalist

i beg to differ. 4 years ago, our church endeavored to build a building to reach the "disconnected generation". we built a building around showing the lost that relationships are more important than tradition, church doesnt have to be sitting around on pews, listening to an out of tune pipe organ playing kumbaya. we posted ads in university ads with sayings such as, "this is church?". as a result, we've seen hundreds of young people become saved, and are learning to become deciples of christ. that is what my tithe has done. i don't know what organized church you've been to, but it's obviousely outdated and ineffective. welcome to the 21 centurty.


I never thought I would see the day when a religionist would be so...bold...as to declare that they errected a mere building to bring anyone to salvation. We can justify just about anything, can't we? Wow. I don't know what kind of salvation you led them to, but if that building was the basis of their wanting to seek slavation, then I can't help but to wonder what manner of savior they found, and where they'll be in five years, or ten or... If I'm understanding your meaning, then...whew. Words escape me.

Oh, and don't worry, I'm not a member of organized religion. I walked away from that quite some time ago. I just couldn't find any support in the word of God for any requirement to be a part of today's system of organized religion and its anti-biblical use of believer's primary giving for its own luxuries rather than the meeting of needs.

Tell me: How can someone who exalts the prinicples of the OT Law governing tithes, knowing full well that 100% of that tithe went for the meeting of needs, turn right around and in good conscience do what is contrary to that very Law, and support something that is doing what is contrary to that very Law? Is there a coherent, logical reason for that? I sure can't think of one. Can you help me out here?

HK

Perhaps it was the peoples' heart of Christ that justified building. I hope their intentions were to bring glory to God, which is what we should do always. Perhaps this was an avenue to bring a disconnected generation into a comfortable environment in which a believer is now able to preach the Good News.

On another note, there are some who want to praise God with the organ, others don't. Some still go to the organ playing church and there are some who unfortunately don't go at all. But if they can find a church opposite of the organ playing type and that's their flavor, so be it; as long as it stay Biblically taught.



Incompre_Tertu -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/9/2005 12:30:51 AM)

To justify tithing to a church, it is like paying membership dues. Once you become a member you are obligated to give 10% to the church to pay for it's inefficient ways of handling the moeny (too much overhead, like paying bills and not going to where it should go, i.e. poor). If this is the case, it is better not to become a member of church, since anything you give is from the heart.



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/9/2005 7:18:10 AM)

Heavenskeys,

You said:
Oh, and don't worry, I'm not a member of organized religion. I walked away from that quite some time ago. I just couldn't find any support in the word of God for any requirement to be a part of today's system of organized religion and its anti-biblical use of believer's primary giving for its own luxuries rather than the meeting of needs.

I can relate... It's a sad thing people have made the church into in "some" cases. I'll not say all organized religion is in error but I've witnessed the down side myself.



kmangel -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/9/2005 8:43:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heavenskeys

Oh, and don't worry, I'm not a member of organized religion. I walked away from that quite some time ago. I just couldn't find any support in the word of God for any requirement to be a part of today's system of organized religion and its anti-biblical use of believer's primary giving for its own luxuries rather than the meeting of needs.

HK


Are you in a community of believers? I think God allows us to worship Him outside of organized religious establishments, so I am curious where you meet with other believers. You believe God led you out of one place. If that is true, then I believe He also was leading you to another. Where did you find yourself? Do you collect money in your group? How do you determine the amount to collect? And how do you determine where to spend the money?



christiancapitalist -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/9/2005 11:15:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heavenskeys

quote:

ORIGINAL: christiancapitalist

i beg to differ. 4 years ago, our church endeavored to build a building to reach the "disconnected generation". we built a building around showing the lost that relationships are more important than tradition, church doesnt have to be sitting around on pews, listening to an out of tune pipe organ playing kumbaya. we posted ads in university ads with sayings such as, "this is church?". as a result, we've seen hundreds of young people become saved, and are learning to become deciples of christ. that is what my tithe has done. i don't know what organized church you've been to, but it's obviousely outdated and ineffective. welcome to the 21 centurty.


I never thought I would see the day when a religionist would be so...bold...as to declare that they errected a mere building to bring anyone to salvation. We can justify just about anything, can't we? Wow. I don't know what kind of salvation you led them to, but if that building was the basis of their wanting to seek slavation, then I can't help but to wonder what manner of savior they found, and where they'll be in five years, or ten or... If I'm understanding your meaning, then...whew. Words escape me.

Oh, and don't worry, I'm not a member of organized religion. I walked away from that quite some time ago. I just couldn't find any support in the word of God for any requirement to be a part of today's system of organized religion and its anti-biblical use of believer's primary giving for its own luxuries rather than the meeting of needs.

Tell me: How can someone who exalts the prinicples of the OT Law governing tithes, knowing full well that 100% of that tithe went for the meeting of needs, turn right around and in good conscience do what is contrary to that very Law, and support something that is doing what is contrary to that very Law? Is there a coherent, logical reason for that? I sure can't think of one. Can you help me out here?

HK

if jesus can use parables, and paul can use logic, and billy graham can use stadiums to show people the love of jesus christ, why can't we use a bulding? if a mucisian uses music, and an athlete uses sports, and an author uses words, why can't we use smoke and lights? as i said, people are coming for the building, staying for the friends they make, and getting saved by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. i'll continue to use whatever tools are neccesary to evangelize the world.
and by the way, if our methods of bringing people to christ are so wrong, what, by the way, are you doing? are you involved in seeing hundreds of people being saved? are you involved in decipling people? if these methods are wrong, what methods are acceptable?



truthisprecious -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/9/2005 4:07:29 PM)

in general christians suck at loving poor people. we are always in debt with love to others. Christ tells us that the most important people are the "least of these" (matt. 25). what better way to love Christ than to help out those stuck in poverty?



notmycity -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/9/2005 4:16:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jerseyguy

I'm not sure where I stand on what manner to preach about giving, but I'll tell you this - as the treasurer of a church - the church is a physical building with bills that must be paid. A LOT of the congregation must think it just "takes care of itself" (based on what comes in and from how many varied parties), and I think they need to be made aware of what it takes to keep their place of worship running..

quote:

treasu


And what a huge resource gobbler these buildings have become, with the upkeep, paid staff, etc.
I’m curious as to what % of the finances of these buildings actually goes toward what my Bible calls “pure religion”. “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.” James 1:27
There are those of us who do just that without a “membership” card, and besides, we always believed a person “joined” the church upon receiving Christ and Savior and Lord. [:)]



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