Need advice...What does "Independence" look like in your Christian Home to a almost 18 year old . (Full Version)

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flee2theCross -> Need advice...What does "Independence" look like in your Christian Home to a almost 18 year old . (5/22/2008 11:34:44 AM)

Seeking biblical, strong advice. ( also from a strong, Biblical leader-dad) if it was your daughter?
We have a daughter who has been in a Christian Residential Care place, for almost 4 months. She will be out in a few months. She had been suicidal,cutter,eating disorder, rebellious etc...... She became a Christian a month after getting there. PTL. She has been working hard at counceling, and doing ALL the required work on time etc.... She has been very active in learning household responsibilies etc...( keep room clean/make bed every morning, up at 7:00am, they run a very strict ship in these programs. The councelor says that she is doing great, and growing in her relationship with the Lord etc... O.K. (She is 17 and homeschooled) She finished two subjects, while in the program to finish school. ( she should do more, but does not want to, so at least she has met the NARS requirment for a High School Diploma. However, she really would not graduate til next year if she had stayed in public School. ( I had to pull her out because of these issues, and homeschool) I already homeschool my other children, but she wanted to attend public school ( long story)
My husband is a very strong, spiritual leader within the home. We are very active in church, and basically, the kind of strong Christian family that would think this would NEVER happen to us as parents. ( Never, say, never) However, God has used this for our good, and His Glory! We haved growned immensely in our faith, in our marriage, and in our parenting skills with our other children. Her is the question.....
When she comes home, she is expecting to live , what she calls being "Independent". O.K. We wrote her and asked her, what she thought "Independent" looked like. We were much taken back to recieve her letter. Now, we realize that she is imature in many ways, but she has grown up in many areas, too. We have seen a dramatic change, in talking to her through phone callls and writing letters. We are not there living with her, in order to see any kind of "fruit-bearing" in her life as far as daily living. We are taking her at her word, that she has indeed, become a believer.
Until, we see fruits, that would dictate otherewise. Now, her letter, was not at all "humble" but more like this is what "I" want. No curfew, I make my own decisions concerning job, ear piercing, whatever pertains to me, I chose what church I want to attend,( we did not know that the program was very much doctrinally different from us-they hid that fact...long story) and how many services, I attend, etc.....
She wants a totally "clean slate"...a new beginning" in our relationships and we desire the same.
Got the picture. We as parents, still see a hidden pattern beneath these requests of "Self-love" Selfishness...I I I ...It came across as her wanting to be a "renter" instead of a responsible and active member of the family unit. We are afraid, that she still does not see my husbands God -given authority within the Home. I miss her, dearly, I love her dearly, and it has been a "rough" road, and the Lord is revealing that it is still bumpy.
Advice, on the issue.



crimsonfollower -> RE: Need advice...What does "Independence" look like in your Christian Home to a almost 18 year old . (5/22/2008 12:00:19 PM)

Wow!! I can not imagine what all you have been through. As a young Christian adult (without my own kids) that has done a lot of work with children of all ages, I would agree that it sounds like she is still very inmature in many ways. One of the things that I am taught in all of my education classes is that children really do want boundries. They will challenge those boundries, but they want to know where the line is. It looks like she has laid out the challenge - where you are going to draw the line. She has stated where she "wants" it, but she needs to know where you and your husband are going to place it. Obviously, she needs some boundries. She needs the accountablity for her continued growth both in Christ and as a young woman. And there may need to be compromise. Like allowed to choose which services she attends after attending Sunday morning with the family (so she may not have to go to Wednesday night even though you express your desire to have her there.) Or the curfew is set at 10 but can be extended for another hour if she checks in by 10 and asks for permission. Also at the age of 17, these rules/guidelines need to be set with her. I wouldn't just set them up and then inform her of your decisions. She is in the fine balance age - she is almost an adult, but not quite. I would also set up what the consequences will be if she does not follow through. The other thing I would suggest is to set the rules a bit tight and let her know that as she proves herself they can be let up. Again, at 17 she wants to have some freedom and yet she still needs those boundries. With my work of high schoolers, I really have seen this work. They still want the adults to be the adults even if what they say/do says otherwise. The other thing that she might want that will have to be dealt with carefully is privacy. She is going to have to prove to you (her parents) that she is no longer doing the distructive behaviors that she was previously. The may include only having a certain amount of time in the bathroom, razors/items for cutting are kept in a secret location, she needs to report where/who she is with. The trust you had with her has been broken and will have to be reestablished slowly. Again this is just my two cents from a single young adult but I do work with high schoolers and have had friends (that I lived with) who were cutters. The worse thing I did was allow that person to have the bedroom with her own bathroom and keep her door shut all the time. There was no accountablity there to know what she was doing. As far as her education goes, I would say to take a break at the moment- there are going to be enough changes as there is. If you feel like she still needs to do some more work, see how she is progressing in Aug/Sept and make a decision then. Benefit of homeschooling- it has the flexiblity that it sounds like you need right now.

Again, I will be praying for you and your family during this time. Hopefully some other parents who have dealt with rebellious children (not that they aren't still loved!!) will be able to give more advice.



manda59 -> RE: Need advice...What does "Independence" look like in your Christian Home to a almost 18 year old . (5/22/2008 12:25:33 PM)

hi there

When you say "very much doctrinally different", what exactly do you mean?

(Just asking for clarification before I reply)



pbaribeault -> RE: Need advice...What does "Independence" look like in your Christian Home to a almost 18 year old (5/22/2008 10:31:55 PM)

I think her requests sound reasonable, and that her self-focus is very much to be expected, given that she is both young-in-faith and has been focusing on self healing for this season of her life. Also, the letter was an answer to a specific question (What does it look like to you?) so, it makes perfect sense that her reply is made up of her own perspective and requests. It is not sensible to consider this as evidence of being overly self focused over-all, because it was you who asked her to express herself in that way.

At this point, "independent" to me means that you make your own choices, so long as they do not unreasonably affect the people you are sharing space with. (An unreasonable effect is something that causes preventable inconvenience -- effects such as taking space, eating food, having TV preferences and causing some degree of worry are to be expected.)

It also means contributing to the household -- either through rent or through chores. And also, showing a degree of gratitude-based respect towards you as parents and providers would also be non-negotiable, along with behaviour that shows person-to-person respect with other members of the family.

You may not be interested in my point of view, as I'm not a person that accepts the family model where a father has positional authority over his daughters, once they are young women, simply because he is their progenitor and he is providing them with housing. (I believe that a father has relational authority over his young-woman daughters only to the degree that his relationship will sustain that authority, and that the onus for that relationship rests with his leadership, not her submission.)

So, I don't think I'll put too much more thought & effort into posting unless you are interested in that perspective. Let me know if you want to hear this point of view, too, though.



susiewho -> RE: Need advice...What does "Independence" look like in your Christian Home to a almost 18 year old (5/22/2008 11:23:40 PM)

What a difficult age. I was only a year older than your daughter when I married my husband and 20 years later I can look back and realize I was not all grown up but on that precipice of being an adult. And as a parent of a teen I also know you are trying to hold on with one hand and let go with the other. She still needs rules and consequences. Even adults have rules and they are enforced. If you speed and get caught you get a ticket. If you show up late to work you may be fired. If you don't pay your electricity bill your power is turned off. If you break curfew you are not allowed to go out at night for a couple of weeks. As parents you need to set the rules and make sure she is aware of the punishment if she breaks them. And some rules will have to fit what is happening at the time. I would also keep a close eye on her behavior. I understand wanting a clean slate but in High School a friend of mine went through rehab for drug usage and running away. She was clean and happy when she completed the program but with in a year was back into the drug scene. I hope this is not the case with your daughter. This is the age where we need to be parents to our children, not their friends. And believe me, I know it is hard. She will break your heart a few times. You will cry a river of tears when you have had to be strong and she gets mad. And she will probably say things that are mean spirited when you stick to your guns. But remember "this too shall pass". I try to remember this and hope that by the age of 20 my son will be a reasonable, responsible adult who is living his life in a way that is pleasing to the Lord.

Lastly, if the church she wants to attend is Christian you may want to compromise. Sunday morning service with you and youth groups, Sunday evening or Wednesday services at a church of her choice. I am very strong in my beliefs but have friends who believe differently than I do. They are Christians but choose to worship differently. If you have raised her and taught her your beliefs she has that firm foundation. Maybe it is just rebellion. It took me until I was in my late 20's to leave the church I was raised in and find a church that fit me. I went from Episcopalian to Baptist and believe me, there is a big difference. My mother was appalled that I choose to worship differently than she does. But, it is right for me. Your daughter may need to find what is right for her. But I do suggest you talk to the pastor of the church she wants to attend.



PrincessDonna -> RE: Need advice...What does "Independence" look like in your Christian Home to a almost 18 year old (5/26/2008 8:16:06 AM)

Does the residential program have any thoughts to offer on adjusting to her coming home? Are there things they would recommend you allow and things they don't? If you don't know, ask them.

Also, I would not allow her to have looser standards at home (at least at first) than she has had at the end of this residential placement. When speaking with her, I would emphasize over and over that responsibility is what determines freedom, so by being personally responsible for whatever you determine she should be, she can possibly earn new freedoms.

What is your denomination and what is denomination of the church she has been attending? I was raised in a strict (i.e. legalistic) Baptist church and my parents sent me to a nondenominational school in a "Bapti-costal" church. When I started going to youth group with my friends there, my parents' pastor told my parents that stuff was from Satan and they opposed me going there.[:@] Now, years later, this is the church we attend and it is most definitely not from Satan. The funny thing is my parents now also attend a similar church, and have freely admitted they were wrong.[:D] I'd say on the church issue, see where she wants to go, evaluate the church solely on the basis of whether or not what it teaches is Biblical, not whether you prefer it or not. Meet with the pastor(s) and talk with them. If you are sure it is doctrinely sound, I'd give her your blessing and not make an issue of this. I would require at least weekly attendance in some Bible-believing church though.



flee2theCross -> RE: Need advice...What does "Independence" look like in your Christian Home to a almost 18 year old (6/3/2008 1:44:51 PM)

Thank you all for your reply's. We have been on a very long road, and we desire what is "best" for our daughter, but also what is best for the entire family. We have three other children to also consider, in which we are raising in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. (Eph.6:4)
Our daughter and councelor is unsure if coming home is the "best" thing, now. They are working on finding a church in our area and then finding another christian family to live with within that church. Our daughter is only 17 ( turns 18 in 8 weeks, after getting out) and we feel like, if she has really become a Christian, then she should biblically submit to our authority and come back to live within the home.( even if it is only for 8 weeks) Then when she is 18, she is free to leave.
The other problem, in which we face is this.....our daughter painted a very "ugly" picture of us as parents, when entering the facility. Well, she cannot back track, now. ( they would kick her out) The ONLY view or perception of us as Christian parents is that we are "monsters'. The councelor has kept us "out of the loop" the entire counceling time, even when our child is a minor. We never ONCE got to explain our side of the story for any circumstance. They took our daughter's side, only, and never asked us about ANYTHING.Even though they had all the documentations of her being hospitalized and diagonesed with Borderline Personality Disorder( what we Christians call SIN:lying, selfishness,malipulation, disrespect, etc)....... the councelor is totally against us as parents. ( especially, in the biblical role of Father's authority within the home.) Our hands have been tied. We were desperate with a out of control teen. No where to turn. Now, don not get me wrong, we are very grateful for this place that took our daughter....God is sovereign and in full control of everything. Have we grown in our faith, in our marriage, in our parenting skills? You bet. Romans 8:28-29. God has used this very difficult trial to conform us into His image. Do you really desire to become more like Christ....then open your heart up to "trials" because that is where you grow the most. God has shown us so much through this time. God has "humbled" us as parents in many ways. Have we been the "perfect" parents. No. But, our desire is to conform to Christ and please Him above all things. ( 2 Cor. 5:9)
Our daughter and councelor's game plan, we think is to find a local church here, where we live and find another Christian family for our daughter
to live with. Which kind of confuses us, because our daughter remains a minor when is is out of the program. We, legally, are still responsibile for her, and we do not feel like it is the Lord's will to sign any kind of papers to turn our daughter over to someone else. We have already done that, with the residential place. We, do not want to "drag" our daughter home, but don't you think, if her conversion was "real and genuine" she would want to come back home and submit to that? She writes and tells us how much she loves and misses us all the time. We know that the councelor has alot of "influence" on her, and we simply do not trust the councelor. We want our daughter to be happy, and we want to take care of the rest of the family, and my husband still needs to be the "head" of the home. Bibilically, HE is responsibile for His family. She wants to come in and do whatever she wants...like an Adult. We need to have guidelines and rules, but we want to help her be "independent" as she will soon be an Adult. We want a fresh start in our relationship with her. we do not want to lose her, but we can't afford to compromise our Home rules either.(the other children are watching) She will only have a High School diploma. ( she is so intellegent) an all A student, but doesn't want to go to college. Therefore, when she turns 18, she can no longer be on my husband's health insurance plan.She wants to get a job as a nanny. ( but, we are thinking with all her emotional
things, behavior) in her past, what parents will want to hire her? I know that she has stated that she has become a Christian, and God wipes the slate clean, and we, do, too as the offended parties. She doesn't have a record, but it has been still "recorded" at the local police stations. ( false accusation calling 911, being hospitalized for cutting herself, etc...)

I agree with those who say.....she needs to earn back our trust, but she thinks now, that she is a Christian, that we can simply TRUST her. Give her a FRESH start, like as if she has done nothing. We as parents are in the wrong to think that we need to work slowly or have discernment, or be careful. We are NOT accepting that she became a Christian, if we are wanting to earn the trust back. or that we have not forgiven her. We know in our hearts, that we have Forgiven her, otherwiese, believe me, everything that she has put our family through, we would not be willing to open up our home to her and desire for her to come back. My husband, has been the prodigal father WAITING at the door, and his eyes on the road, waiting on her return!!!!!!!! I highly respect him, and deeply love him, for his Godly attitude in all of this. God's grace has been at work in all of us!!

Any comments....feel free.



manda59 -> RE: Need advice...What does "Independence" look like in your Christian Home to a almost 18 year old (6/3/2008 2:00:48 PM)

flee2theCross

I wonder if you didn't see my question before asking about the programme being "very much doctrinally different" - I was asking in what way.

Also, just one another question, based on something you said in this last post of yours - do you believe all mental illness to be down to "sin"?



pbaribeault -> RE: Need advice...What does "Independence" look like in your Christian Home to a almost 18 year old (6/3/2008 3:03:31 PM)

There are a few logical flaws in your post, that I think if you take the care to untangle, you will find yourself both on more level ground and more levelheaded.

The first logical flaw is that you appear to believe in "magic 18" -- a very common failing in most societies. If you think of it with fresh eyes, it is not sensible to imagine that the transition to "Adult" (with your capital "A") occurs on a certain day, and that on that day everything about her-and-your responsibility and authority just -poof- changes. Therefore, I think your focus on the 8 week period after her treatment ends is really illogical.

And besides being illogical, it is counter productive. It would take an average teen well over 8 weeks to establish a good working relationship with parents-as-authority figures. It would probably take a year to work out all the things that would make that a workable scenario. If she came home, and you were all just in the throes of the initial turmoil of that adjustment, then she hit 18, and in her frustration (and yours) you part households... well, that would about ruin your relationship for a decade, before she got used to relating to you as loving parents that are not the head of the household where she lives. For the cost of 8 silly weeks, you would risk this? Why not let her apply her skills (fresh out of counseling) to setting up the relationship that you-3 are going to be living with for the next 6 decades?

The second logical flaw is that you sent her away to a counseling program, but appear to believe that it should have resulted in mediation. Counseling is a one-on-one relationship that has the goal of improving the patient's mental health. To improve someone's mental health, it is not at all necessary to find out the whole story, or to deal with accuracy or truth. What is key to counseling is to teach the patient to deal with their perception of reality in a better way... and for that, you really only need to discuss the patient's perceptions... so while your daughter may be misrepresenting you as parents, she is accurately reporting how those experiences seemed to her... which is how a counselor helps her with her life.

It wasn't really intended to bring about healing in your relationship -- that would have been mediation (which would require both perspectives, and your being there, and you working just as hard as her for all these months). Counseling is only designed to make the individual healthy enough to undertake relationship healing, should she choose to. If that's what you mean by 'taking her side'... well, that's what you signed up for.

(Although, if it's any comfort, I expect that the counselor is taking her narratives with a grain of salt. Smart people do not actually diagnose someone with a condition that includes lying and manipulation, then believe everything they say.)

The third logical flaw surrounds your ideas about the results of 'genuine' conversion. On the one hand, you seem to think that becoming a Christian does not mean that everything about her has changed (because you don't want to trust her in life choices just based on her confession of faith). On the other hand, you seem to imply that her conversion might not be genuine, because you see evidence that she is not completely changed (with respect to desiring to accept her parents authority).

The truth (as I'm sure you know in the not-so-personal-scenario sense) is that conversion is a profound change of self, but that the Holy Spirit has His holy work cut out for Him as He brings us (issue by issue, over time, often through circumstances) into a lifestyle that pleases God. It is often the issues that we struggle with most deeply that hang on to us and cripple our walk for years. For your daughter, submission to parents is probably one of those most problematic issues... which is why I say it's illogical that you put that one on the list of things that should have been cleared up immediately if she has really come to faith. That's kind of an unfair basis for evaluation, wouldn't you say?

And the fourth logical flaw has to do with authority, responsibility and submission. A parent is responsible for their children. (Since you seem to be of the patriarchal school of thought, I'll express this about the father, although I believe it falls on both parents.) As a father, he is responsible to care for and to lead his children. He has both the calling the authority to do so. If he chooses not, over the long term, to establish a relationship based on that leadership role, then it is not the problem of the recipient that he has not been leading, if she is not following his lead.

It was his job to establish himself in her life. If that has not taken place, the better response would be repentance rather than blame. There's enough blame to go around, and a rebellious child holds plenty, but the task of establishing the proper relationship between a parent and a child is essentially the responsibility of the parent, not the child. (I'm not saying he did not do his best it's a difficult task, many falter, and nobody has a time-machine to make things right -- but I am saying that he did not accomplish it, and that he is out of time. Perhaps there are some lessons to be learned regarding your younger children, though.)

In conclusion:

The most clear and insightful thing in your post is when you said "Our hands are tied." Yes. They are.

Your daughter is in charge of the terms of how (and if) she will relate to you (if not immediately, then in 8 weeks, so near enough -- and all you can do in 8 weeks is decide whether or not to plant poison). Your daughter is in charge of how she uses her intelligence, whether and how she gets the kind of job she wants, or not. She is in charge of whether and how to have and pay for health insurance.

She does not need to earn your trust back. She does not need to have anything to do with you. If you want to have a good relationship with her, the ball is in your court to make the effort, because it seems like she is probably perceives herself as happy enough without you. Of course, you don't have to trust her unless she earns it, I just mean that she probably doesn't care if you don't trust her and isn't likely to put much effort into changing your minds, unless you give her a reason to want parents in her life again. Think about some of those reasons...

God's grace continues to be at work in you, and I hope I haven't crossed over that line from bluntness to harshness. I'm not trying to be cruel. I want you to have a good ongoing relationship with your daughter, and I have an idea that your plan to exert what control you can for the 8 weeks that are available is just the wrongest option available, if you have that long term relationship goal too.



flee2theCross -> RE: Need advice...What does "Independence" look like in your Christian Home to a almost 18 year old (6/4/2008 8:19:57 AM)

First of all....I could not agree with you more about turning 18. I was trying to explain our daughter's outlook on being an adult. I used the capital "A", because she did in her letter to us. She thinks that 18 is magical, and she does not realize that freedom, comes with responsibility. We want her to come back home and live for as long as feels she needs to. But, she is thinking, just let me do what I want "live independently" or....find somewhere to live ( with Christian strangers) I will be 18 in 8 weeks, so what is the big deal.We believe it is the Lord's will that she come home, even if it was only for those 8 weeks, but we want her to stay longer. We do not want her to leave. WE desire to re-establish our relationship with her. She desires the same, but OUTSIDE the home. That is why she is wanting to come back into our area, so we can restore the relationship. The councelor wants her to stay in the area that the residential place is at. Anyway,we have no problem, her staying somewhere else except for the fact that she is only 17 and by law we as parents are responsibile for her. We are very concerned. We love her very much. She will come out with no job, no driver's license.....we want to help her to get back on her feet again, and when she feels she is ready ( has a job at least) to move on, if she wants.We have talked to our daughter on the phone and she does desire a "new" slate with us as parents. She has already repented for her behavior and we, too, have repented for everything that the Lord had brought to mind a s sin. My husband and my daughter know that it will take work to heal the relationship. They are in agreement with that.There is no problem as far as her and us restoring the relationships all around. So, we have already been down the road to forgiveness.
I know what biblical forgiveness is #1.both offended parties not bringing it up to one another again. #2. Not bringing it up to others. #3. Not allowing yourself to bring it up in your own mind to dwell on. We have forgiven our daughter and she has forgiveness us.....now we are ready for "restoration" of the relationships.
Not only has the Lord been working in our daughter's life for the past 4 months, but we, too, have been working on our end. We have not "blamed" our daughter for everything. We have taken much the responsibilty....and God has indeed "humbled" us in many ways.



manda59 -> RE: Need advice...What does "Independence" look like in your Christian Home to a almost 18 year old (6/4/2008 10:49:26 AM)

(trying again)



flee2theCross

I wonder if you didn't see my question before asking about the programme being "very much doctrinally different" - I was asking in what way.

Also, just one another question, based on something you said in this last post of yours - do you believe all mental illness to be down to "sin"?



SouthernBelleGrits -> RE: Need advice...What does "Independence" look like in your Christian Home to a almost 18 year old (6/4/2008 11:06:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: manda59

(trying again)



flee2theCross

I wonder if you didn't see my question before asking about the programme being "very much doctrinally different" - I was asking in what way.

Also, just one another question, based on something you said in this last post of yours - do you believe all mental illness to be down to "sin"?



Before I post much I would also like to know the answer to these questions. I'm also a little confused about your communication with your daughter and the people involved in her life at the facility. You talked about a letter she has written but is that the only form of communication you have had?

I've come back to edit this because I reread your first post and realize you have talked with her on the phone too. I had asked because some of your comments seem to be assumptions instead of facts.



sen10tious -> RE: Need advice...What does "Independence" look like in your Christian Home to a almost 18 year old (6/4/2008 11:23:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: flee2theCross
Anyway,we have no problem, her staying somewhere else except for the fact that she is only 17 and by law we as parents are responsibile for her.

How does your state law deal with emancipated minors? If that were true that you have "no problem," then sign a paper so you are not held legally responsible and give her the extra two months to try and play grown-up. What do you hope to accomplish by waiting? Making her madder? [Or do you have a problem with it after all?]
I’d be very concerned about the counselor’s influence since it appears that the goals are very different from your own. (You need to answer the question about differences in doctrine & belief.)

Your daughter is under an impossible authority-situation. She cannot survive with three conflicting heads: hers, yours, and the counselor’s.



bzirk -> RE: Need advice...What does "Independence" look like in your Christian Home to a almost 18 year old (6/4/2008 12:40:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sen10tious

quote:

ORIGINAL: flee2theCross
Anyway,we have no problem, her staying somewhere else except for the fact that she is only 17 and by law we as parents are responsibile for her.

How does your state law deal with emancipated minors? If that were true that you have "no problem," then sign a paper so you are not held legally responsible and give her the extra two months to try and play grown-up. What do you hope to accomplish by waiting? Making her madder? [Or do you have a problem with it after all?]
I’d be very concerned about the counselor’s influence since it appears that the goals are very different from your own. (You need to answer the question about differences in doctrine & belief.)

Your daughter is under an impossible authority-situation. She cannot survive with three conflicting heads: hers, yours, and the counselor’s.


Excellent assessment.

The authority situation was created years before today, and it's not going to come 'round right by making her submit to the parents at this point.

I hate to ever say that something is too late, but it may be too late to assert parental authority in this manner.



buckifn -> RE: Need advice...What does "Independence" look like in your Christian Home to a almost 18 year old (6/8/2008 8:40:20 PM)

Depending on what state you live in your daughter may very well be sent from the residential treatment facility to live at another place besides yours and remain in custody of children's service. For instance we can now retain youth in our custody until the age of 21...a recent upgrade from the age of 18.

You are welcome to pm me if you would like more information based on my experiences of working in such cases.

I personally have never worked with a residential treatment program that did not involve the parent's or legal guardian in at least 1 counseling session. Did the program not have a contract of services when you sent her there, or was it out of your hands and a decision handed down by the justice system?



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