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facedown -> :: the problem with god (5/22/2008 9:34:48 PM)
seems this is a question many folks deal with both here and in our localities, so here's a thread on it. i'm personally not over concerned with the question, or those asking the question - but maybe the reason it has to be asked, and the status-quo answers often cited. the question is usually centered around "if god was good, then why is there suffering" - "why is there a hell" - "why do children die" - "why doesn't god show up and fix this mess" - "i can't worship a god who claims to be love and good and determines before hand to create something intentionally to be destroyed" - etc the typical answer is normally along the lines of "god is love, and god is good, but god is also just" - "god must punish sin" - etc - however, i'm not certain that this response really answers the question. what are your thoughts? how do you respond?

CherishedbyGod -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/22/2008 9:55:30 PM)
Ultimately, facedown, there really is no answer for those questions. Believe me, I have asked them all... Only those who have suffered much in this life can even begin to qualify to reply to such answers. Any answers coming from those who have not suffered much will come across as trite, calleous and uncaring. I believe one of the reasons it is asked is, when people are hurting they don't understand why. And so, we ask "why"? When people are in agony of heart they look for any relief to that; they look for a reason to explain why they must go through what they are going through. I cannot tell you how many times I have asked that question....

1love1God1way -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/22/2008 9:59:47 PM)
It answers the question. . . it's just not what someone who asks the question wants to hear.

J_Michael80 -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/22/2008 11:03:55 PM)
quote: original: facedown "If god was good, then why is there suffering" - "why is there a hell" - "why do children die" - "why doesn't god show up and fix this mess" - "i can't worship a god who claims to be love and good and determines before hand to create something intentionally to be destroyed" "On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles." (Romans 9: 20-24)

Ezra -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/22/2008 11:12:05 PM)
quote: what are your thoughts? how do you respond? According to Scripture: 1. The more you suffer in this life, the greater will be your reward in eternity. 2. The more you suffer in this life, the closer will you be drawn to God here and now. 3. Christ is our ultimate example -- His intense sufferings came before His supreme exaltation, and His Cross came before His crown. 4. If you are chosen to suffer greatly, consider it a very high privilege reserved for those whom God loves dearly. "Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful [full of pity] and of tender mercy" (James 5:11).

bob97 -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/22/2008 11:19:06 PM)
My wife suffers from liver cancer…we pray about it but we don’t question why. The experience has only drawn us closer to the Lord and we will accept whatever He decrees. We have turned this issue totally to the Lord, we just don’t worry about it. When we question why, we forget that this life is but a short breath in our eternal life for those who belong to Christ. We fight to keep what we have today, forgetting what is ours tomorrow. Bob

1love1God1way -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/22/2008 11:32:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod quote: ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way It answers the question. . . it's just not what someone who asks the question wants to hear. Perfect example of what I posted. Try telling your response, Ben, to Steven Curtis Chapman and his wife, whose child that they lovingly adopted, was just innocently killed. Try telling them they don't want to hear why God allows suffering[>:] You're right. It's tough. And in that situation. . . I wouldn't go about telling them unless they specifically asked.

MusicianDad -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/22/2008 11:41:50 PM)
The problem with questions like, "if God is good then why (fill in the blank), is that there's an asumption that there is a standard of morality that God answers to. God is the sourse of morality. He's in charge of it, not the other way around.

facedown -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/23/2008 7:17:08 AM)
cherished i tend to agree. and i'm not asking - but asking what other's responses are. 1love1god1way what is "it" in post 3? if someone specifically asked - what would you say? faithfulservant how do you believe that passage answers the question? ezra what kind of sense does that make? bob97 peace to you and your wife. musiciandad how do you believe that posts makes sense?

hellohellohi -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/23/2008 9:23:19 AM)
yo! good stuff!! I especially liked the Romans and also the simple (yet true! simple in the good sense[;)]) arguments like "God is the source of morality" and not answerable to some code. I can see, I guess, that that's not what a critic wants to hear, but, oh well, it's still nice. One thing I've been thinking about -- I wanna know what y'all think! -- is that while humans suffer, it is only through the grace of God that we do so WITH ALL OUR HEARTS. Otherwise, humans have all the potential of suffering things ironically, as observers, using different methods to cope perhaps, even laughing at potentially debilitating situations (wait, that might support the idea that Grace is helping us there too!). Basically, I have a simple thought, which I fear is obscure or untrue or both. I think human suffering may have a comical component to it! Suffering, the SKEPTICS ARGUE, is absurd! So, it has its comical component (if you are not Christian only, perhaps! -- not to say that Christians can't laugh! but I think Christians are beyond comedy and are just content when it comes to life, since eternity exists and is what matters) I am really scared to say that, given, like Bob acknowledged, some are REALLY faced with suffering HERE AND NOW! Christianly, what I mean to say is, the only one who truly suffers (experiences TRAGEDY) is God. I think our sufferings are shades of what God experienced for us, as Roman says, to His glory -- despite the inevitability that some of us would actually be OFFENDED at His sacrifice and generally indignant about his will. So these sufferings are a gift that way! Secularly, I'm really interested in the terms TRAGEDY and COMEDY, since they don't have any APPARENT connections to Christianity, and if it one can be brought to believe that all of life -- even the suffering -- would be comical if placed on stage -- maybe not to everyone in the audience, but to at least one wag or one sociopath! -- although, there would still be this sense that tragedy exists. I had a sense before I accepted Christ (verbally I mean!!) that there was tragedy in the world, but that it was either washed from me or was going to be washed from me, and I was like, hey, that's what the Christians are talking about. Human tragedy is despair. And despair is ironic -- it is always a REBELLION against one's situation, a wish to be NOT what one is -- that's dramatic irony of a sorts I think! Despair, viewed from eternity is laughable from --our? -- perspective. From God's it is tragic, becuase He loves us and knows our hearts, evil (voided) and saved (redeemed) both. Now, suffering is not REBELLION -- and y'all have covered exactly how suffering is to be understood by the CHRISTIAN! --but you can see that those (secular!) folks who ask, "Why?" are commiting rebellion, complaining about the apparent absurdity, and, if it affects them personally enough, are giving themselves to despair! So, I am trying to engage SECULAR understanding of suffering. Have I started a good line of thought, what do you all think? Suffering without God is, well tragic from God's perspective, but can and SHOULD we really empathize with the sinner, or try to take a morsel of their despair unto ourselves? No! That's Jesus' job! Now, there are plenty who suffer without rebelling and without asking why, they simply suffer. Are there?? One would think! These people, whether they have read the Bible are not, are being helped by the Holy Spirit, you think? On the other hand, it is ADVERSARIAL to ask, "Why," and these are the people I am trying to address. I think the question is a joke. Thanks! Oh yes, one more thing. I wanted to go on to say that I am NOT suggesting that suffering be treated lightly by the Christian! But here I am being redundant to what you all have already said! Christitnas should have, rather than light feelings, DEEP gratitude for suffering, for the connection it lends us to Jesus (however meager in comparison to His suffering, no doubt) as well as a reminder that God's gift to us is not life, but Eternity with Him!

CherishedbyGod -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/23/2008 4:05:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra quote: what are your thoughts? how do you respond? According to Scripture: 1. The more you suffer in this life, the greater will be your reward in eternity. Ezra, can you elaborate on point #1 for me, please? I have seen you post that before and I don't recall reading it in scripture. Perhaps I have, I just don't remember. 4. If you are chosen to suffer greatly, consider it a very high privilege reserved for those whom God loves dearly. Can you elaborate on your point #4, also? It almost seems as if you are saying that there is a special love God has for those chosen to suffer greatly?

CherishedbyGod -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/23/2008 4:18:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hellohellohi Suffering without God is, well tragic from God's perspective, but can and SHOULD we really empathize with the sinner, or try to take a morsel of their despair unto ourselves? No! That's Jesus' job! I disagree with the above. A hugh reason, I believe, why one suffers is so that they will understand the suffering of others and be able to "enter in", so to speak, the other's sufferings. Some of my favorite passages of scriptures, to encourage me in my ministrys are: Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in. Isaiah 58: 6-12 I literally "feel" other's pain, if I have been through what they have been through....

hellohellohi -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/23/2008 4:31:19 PM)
sorry, I was probably getting carried away... Yes, empathize with suffering. But not with despair [;)] See what I mean? I was trying to be careful with my words, but I don't blame you for thinking that.

hellohellohi -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/23/2008 4:32:47 PM)
There is suffering... and there is the suffering that is the result of sin, which is despair (not really suffering at all, though people look at it like that) anyway, sorry

hellohellohi -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/23/2008 5:01:26 PM)
If I wasn't concerned with sufferers, I think I might as well stop calling myself a Christian. -- so I don't mind that reminder at all! Let me point out one more time that I was talking about THOSE who are asking the question "Why?" I'm not talking about the anonymous sufferers out there (and certainly not the ones we are called to be neighbors to right NOW who are in our sight) when I said, rather dramatically, that there human suffering has a comical component. Give my thoughts one more look! (be generous when you make assumptions about what I'm saying[;)]) I hadn't formulated them well or thought out what to say. Again, those who are suffering WITH ALL THEIR HEARTS (without despairing) are doing so with the help of the Holy Spirit. That DOESN'T mean we can leave them in a ditch somewhere! (Thanks for the correction!) If we leave them in the ditch, then we are neglecting God Himself. Those who question "Why?" are turning their lives into a farce, and disgracing themselves to the extent that they may make their lives and their sufferings in to something grander than they are (for their own sake, that is). Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between real suffering and farcical despair! We can only rely on the Holy Spirit to show us our neighbors -- those in need of help! and those who need to have their sense of humor tested!! But for the humanist to decry God for being cruel, I am saying, should not be humored. (yep, pun) Rather, when someone asks "Why," I think it should be shown to them, at that time, that human suffering is comical, because, if they are not saved, there is no way they are not despairing. That means they may be in need of laughter! Suffering cannot be said to be comical ABSOLUTELY, except for the fact that sin is universal (though, in a special sense, since it is STILL contingent on everyone's free will), and thus suffering always has the POTENTIAL for a comical side to it! HOWEVER! It is the SIN that gives rise to the comedy, and it should be "laughed off" -- NOT the actually suffering! Thanks for helping me clarify!

Fwanger -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/23/2008 5:27:13 PM)
How do I respond? First off, first post in months here. I've been gone from the threads for a long time. Glad to see some familiar people here. grin God is not here to be at our beck and call for whenever we feel we need Him around. Sure, bad things are bound to happen in this world. But everything has its reason. We can't see it here on this end because we are earthly minded and not thinking eternally. Sometimes God will use something evil to perpetrate the greatest good. Look at the death of Jesus. A tragic horrible experience. But because of this experience, millions upon billions will enter the kingdom of God because by His death and resurrection we are saved. We can't see the big picture from this end. All we can do is simply say "Thy will be done" and know that however badly we feel about something that has happened, we can never know the grief that it causes our Father.

hellohellohi -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/23/2008 6:09:21 PM)
Also, I am going to take yet more of the "airwaves" for a moment: I guess, overall, my contention is that we shouldn't say "there is no answer to this question" -- I think MusicianDad said the answer and I'm just trying to elaborate on it! (That is, asking "why" is just being rebellious!) Also, CherishedByGod, please reconsider or explain your statement to the effect that "I feel it (empathize), if I've experienced it." Why do we need to experience suffering in order to empathize with it? And if that is just the definition of empathy, what's so great about empathy? Should we not instead value the broader category of "sympathy" -- really, empathy sounds like prejudice! Really, just content yourself with helping your neighbor -- those you can help! If it is only the ones you UNDERSTAND that you CAN help, so be it! But I don't see why one couldn't help suffering we have NEVER experienced. Why not? I don't know. I don't want to set up a hierarchy of suffering tho! [;)] What I was really saying was that human suffering is never a TRAGEDY and certainly never the tragedy that humanists complain about. A tragedy would require an observer who suffers WITH ALL THEIR HEART. Now, here is perhaps a difficult point: Though someone, many people may WHOLEHEARTEDLY experience suffering, they are not SELF-AWARE. They are just suffering. The moment one tries to OBSERVE oneself suffering, one is not longer the sufferer, but the observer, putting oneself at a REMOVE from one's suffering. It is at this time that they do not EXPERIENCE tragedy (though they will probably feel like they are seeing it) but IRONY. So, the suffering is displaced. Does this, what I'm saying, matter? (This remove might be a natural sort of coping mechanism.) It seems to me though that God is the only one who can observe AND suffer. Thus, He has a monopoly over claims to TRAGEDY. When discussing suffering, why haven't we brought up Job? Doesn't Job answer all the questions? Now, if a child, asks "Why suffering," "Why am I suffering?" I guess the answer is "Be brave..." The answer is not, "well, yknow, there is no tragedy, you're not suffering," -- that's not what I mean. I mean in the realm of TALK -- there is no tragedy. Whenever someONE (the sufferer OR NOT the sufferer) points out suffering... it is like referring to God in vain, I think. Now, someone might point out the suffering of some group or another so that we can help!! That's not what I mean -- I mean, trying to be SELF-AWARE AND suffering. THAT is comedy. That is when the sufferer is asking "Why?" It is saying, "there is suffering... look at ME" or "look at US" (humanism). I guess this is so hard to talk about because it is real life! That's enough! I agree the ministry to suffering is crucial to Jesus' calling tho! bye

CherishedbyGod -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/23/2008 6:53:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fwanger How do I respond? First off, first post in months here. I've been gone from the threads for a long time. Glad to see some familiar people here. grin Fwanger! So good to "see" you again[sm=angel.gif] we can never know the grief that it causes our Father. Regarding your above statement, I have a pamplet I carry in my Bible called "10 Reasons to Believe in a God Who Allows Suffering" Point #7 says: "No one has suffered more than our Father in Heaven. No one has paid more dearly for the allowance of sin into the world. No one has so continuously grieved over the pain of a race gone bad. No one has suffered like the One who paid for our sin in the crucified body of His own Son. No one has suffered more than the One who, when He stretched out His arms and died, showedushow much He loved us. It is this God Who, in drawing us to Himself, asks us to trust Him when we are suffering and when our own loved ones cry out in our presence. (1Peter 2:21; 3:18; 4:1). RBC Ministries

MusicianDad -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/23/2008 7:01:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: facedown [musiciandad how do you believe that posts makes sense? Uuhh...by the knowledge that English is my native language? I'm not sure what you are asking. God is the source of goodness. He doesn't have to run and check the official book of all things good before He decides to do something. He's the author.

CherishedbyGod -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/23/2008 7:15:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hellohellohi Also, CherishedByGod, please reconsider or explain your statement to the effect that "I feel it (empathize), if I've experienced it." Why do we need to experience suffering in order to empathize with it? And if that is just the definition of empathy, what's so great about empathy? Should we not instead value the broader category of "sympathy" -- really, empathy sounds like prejudice! Really, just content yourself with helping your neighbor -- those you can help! If it is only the ones you UNDERSTAND that you CAN help, so be it! But I don't see why one couldn't help suffering we have NEVER experienced. Why not? I don't know. I don't want to set up a hierarchy of suffering tho! [;)] hellohellohi, Rather than try and explain what I mean, I will share what I have experienced: Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. 2Corinthians 1: 3-6

Ezra -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/24/2008 12:25:31 AM)
CBG: Sorry, I did not see this until today. quote: ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra quote: what are your thoughts? how do you respond? According to Scripture: 1. The more you suffer in this life, the greater will be your reward in eternity. Ezra, can you elaborate on point #1 for me, please? I have seen you post that before and I don't recall reading it in scripture. Perhaps I have, I just don't remember. We read in 1 Pet. 1:7 "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ". Fire here is a metaphor for the sufferings of this life, which are to be accepted as the testing of our faith. And the reward for enduring those sufferings is praise, honour, and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ. Thus the greater the suffering, and its endurance, the greater the reward. Therefore Paul says "If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him" (2 Tim. 2:12). Thus, because Christ knew that His 12 faithful apostles (including Paul) would be martyred, He promised them 12 thrones upon which they will sit judging the 12 tribes of Israel. This was in response to the question "Since we have forsaken all, what will be our reward?" quote: quote: 4. If you are chosen to suffer greatly, consider it a very high privilege reserved for those whom God loves dearly. Can you elaborate on your point #4, also? It almost seems as if you are saying that there is a special love God has for those chosen to suffer greatly? Taking the apostle Paul as an example, we know that he was a highly privileged apostle on this earth -- possibly more so than any other apostle. By the same token, he also suffered probably more than any other apostle (2 Cor. 4:7-18). Christ did indeed have a special love for Paul, and it is expressed in these words (Acts 9:15): "Go thy way, FOR HE IS A CHOSEN VESSEL UNTO ME, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: for I will show him HOW GREAT THINGS HE MUST SUFFER for my name's sake". This is similar to the commendation of John the Baptist, "the greatest of all the prophets", who was martyred for Christ.

txparent -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/24/2008 12:46:52 AM)
I haven't read everything that everyone has written in this post, so perhaps I am re-stating things that have already been said, but here are my initial thoughts: God allows suffering because: 1. Pain is often used as a teaching mechanism. Many times, when we think of things as painful, there is a larger lesson to be learned. God may be shaping us into a more clear image of him. This is analogous to children being disciplined when they misbehave. To them, they are experiencing pain. But to us, what we are doing is an act of love because we want to improve our children and steer them away from larger pain later in life. 2. In a universe with more than one intelligent mind coupled with free will, pain is inevitable. For example, if you are the only person in the universe and you want something, there is no one else to disagree with you. However, if there is one other person in the universe and you both want different things (maybe you both want the only ice cream cone), only one of you can get your way. To the one who doesn't get his way, he'll feel unhappy and in pain. Obviously, ice cream is a very minor example, but it applies to quite a few other situations. 3. We live in a consistent universe. I make this point because people may say "if we suffer as a teaching exercise, why must animals suffer? they can't be taught anything, can they?" The fact is that the universe must be logically consistent. Thus if the universe is designed to allow us to suffer, it must also be designed to allow all living creatures to suffer. 4. This world is not designed as the "ultimate goal". People forget that we aren't on earth to be happy. We're here to take a journey of discovery relationship-building with God. It's our chance to decide whether we want an eternity with God. As such, God must provide us opportunities to learn about him. If everything was perfect, people wouldn't yearn for Heaven. We have a friend who developed Leukemia (which was, thankfully, cured by a bone marrow transplant from her son). She went through hell on earth as a result of the transplant (look it up...it's an awful process). But in the midst of it, so many doctors, nurses and patients were able to see her faith. In this case, her disease might have been her testimony of faith that brought others to Christ. 5. The simplest answer is...sin. This is a fallen world. And as such it has been infected with pain, suffering and death. And without Christ, we are destined to be eternally cut off from God. That's why Jesus came to earth. He demonstrated how we're to live life, he showed us the sort of death and separation we deserve to go through (and what he saved us from), and he demonstrated the resurrection that we all look forward to. He did this because he wanted to experience and understand what being human is like. And he also did this to make sure we don't have to suffer eternal death and separation. 6. Finally, one of the most powerful answer is simply this...investigate whether there is a God. Make a decision based on the facts (which, btw, would support God's existence in any court in the land). If you decide there is a God, then choose whether to follow him or not. If God is unfair, He's still God. Our standards of fair/unfair can't even begin to compare or apply to God. Who are we to tell God how he should act? He is the Creator. He has provided us a way to escape eternal destruction. Any discussion of whether he allows suffering is simply a distraction. The question is simple: - Is there a God? YES - Does he call us to follow him? YES - Do we want to escape eternal death? YES If each of these are YES, then our task is to follow him regardless of his character. If you want more information, I encourage you to read "The Problem of Pain" by CS Lewis.

hellohellohi -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/24/2008 12:04:33 PM)
CherishedByGod, I appreciate you sharing scripture! Still, I have some questions: Does empathy go "too far"? Since we are called to love our neighbor (those in need, who we CAN help) as ourselves, isn't it failing to fulfill the command to say, "Yes, I understand what you are going through. I have been there myself." Aren't we calling attention to ourselves that way? See what I'm getting at? Just trying to offer a HELPful correction if it is needed[:)] I might leave aside the less important parts of what I was saying for now, but I hope someone is interested in talking about my solution to the question of this thread! : That when people demand an answer to "Why suffering?" they actually mean, "why tragedy?" (since asking the question assumes an observer of the suffering, namely God, if no one else). Thus, a very clear true and profound answer can be given: There is no tragedy except that experienced by God. Look at this: if a sufferer is doing so quietly (without asking the question) AND an observer comes by (us!), it is our Christian requirement to help them! If we pass them by, we are passing by God! If, on the other hand, a person wants to stand by and say, "Show me the one responsible so that we can inquire whether He is just or not," they are failing to help the IMMEDIACY that is suffering. They are demanding that God come around and fix it!!!! BUT, the Christian has been shown!! -- God IS here already. He is the one suffering. See! Please! Offer scripture if the Spirit moves you, but answer my statements!

CherishedbyGod -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/24/2008 4:12:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hellohellohi CherishedByGod, I appreciate you sharing scripture! Still, I have some questions: Does empathy go "too far"? Since we are called to love our neighbor (those in need, who we CAN help) as ourselves, isn't it failing to fulfill the command to say, "Yes, I understand what you are going through. I have been there myself." Aren't we calling attention to ourselves that way? See what I'm getting at? Just trying to offer a HELPful correction if it is needed[:)] Would you mind sharing with us all who said the above since you put it in quotes? How can it be helpful if you are misrepresenting someone? Who is calling attention to themselves, please share with us?

CherishedbyGod -> RE: :: the problem with god (5/24/2008 4:42:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra 1. The more you suffer in this life, the greater will be your reward in eternity. Ezra, can you elaborate on point #1 for me, please? I have seen you post that before and I don't recall reading it in scripture. Perhaps I have, I just don't remember. We read in 1 Pet. 1:7 "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ". Fire here is a metaphor for the sufferings of this life, which are to be accepted as the testing of our faith. And the reward for enduring those sufferings is praise, honour, and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ. Thus the greater the suffering, and its endurance, the greater the reward. Therefore Paul says "If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him" (2 Tim. 2:12). Thus, because Christ knew that His 12 faithful apostles (including Paul) would be martyred, He promised them 12 thrones upon which they will sit judging the 12 tribes of Israel. This was in response to the question "Since we have forsaken all, what will be our reward?" Thank you so much! As I was meditating on that verse following re-reading your answer I realized that I have always believed that the "praise and honor and glory" is reserved only for the Lord Jesus Christ. I have never realized that, if I endure much suffering and my faith does not fail that I will get praise and honor and glory along with Jesus? quote: quote: 4. If you are chosen to suffer greatly, consider it a very high privilege reserved for those whom God loves dearly. Can you elaborate on your point #4, also? It almost seems as if you are saying that there is a special love God has for those chosen to suffer greatly? Taking the apostle Paul as an example, we know that he was a highly privileged apostle on this earth -- possibly more so than any other apostle. By the same token, he also suffered probably more than any other apostle (2 Cor. 4:7-18). Christ did indeed have a special love for Paul, and it is expressed in these words (Acts 9:15): "Go thy way, FOR HE IS A CHOSEN VESSEL UNTO ME, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: for I will show him HOW GREAT THINGS HE MUST SUFFER for my name's sake". I have a little more trouble with this one because aren't we all chosen vessels unto the Lord? I know he was highly privileged. I guess I struggle with wondering if the Lord has a special love for some of His children more than others.... This is similar to the commendation of John the Baptist, "the greatest of all the prophets", who was martyred for Christ. I know a Christian lady who has endured alot of suffering both before and following her becoming a Christian. About 17 years ago she was lying in bed before she went to sleep. Suddenly, there was a Presence in her bedroom that can not be described. It was the Lord Jesus Christ! His presence was so overpowering with a consuming love that she fell out of bed and got on her knees. That love was so powerful that she knew her mortal body could not take any more - it was too holy. She knew in that instant that one would die for that love. It was wonderful beyond description. As stated, following that she has been called upon to endure much. But she also has an incredible ministry for the Lord that is very, very special. I know you don't know this person, but is it possible that she is highly privileged? Sorry for my poor formating....

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