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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 10:27:39 AM
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unclemonkey
Posts: 718
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ORIGNAL:glusdysquote:
Maybe with someone other than unclemonkey.
Or anyone else who puts more trust in God’s written word than in human reasoning.
“Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.” – Proverbs 3:5
“There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” – Proverbs 14:12
quote:
Well, the "second book" is God's creation, so you are agreeing that God's creation teaches that the sun and stars preceded the existence of plants. You are also accusing God's creation of false witness.
I am accusing the “second book” philosophy of false witness. This accusation is confirmed by the fact that its doctrines are in diametric opposition to clear Biblical doctrines.
While the creation attests to God’s power and glory it does NOT provide us with the details of origins. While science can inform us of how the creation operates it can tell us nothing of how it originated. For those we must rely solely on God’s written word.
_____________________________
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 10:36:23 AM
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Method
Posts: 820
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
You have missed the point, but you are not far off. It is not possible to put a higher priority on human reasoning than God’s written word without implying that God is deceitful.
The Bible was written and is interpretted by humans through reason. So much for the Bible.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 11:03:13 AM
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drmark
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quote:
The ratio of various radionuclides in various rocks is not philosophy, but fact. The earth and the universe has, at the very least, the appearance of age. Pay attention, es. The ratios of isotopes is factual evidence; the interpretation of those ratios in drawing conclusions about age is philosophy! Seems to me that 6000 years is plenty of age to appear old. Do you know anybody 6000 years old? I only know One!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 11:03:29 AM
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unclemonkey
Posts: 718
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ORIGNAL:glusdysquote:
Maybe with someone other than unclemonkey.
Or anyone else who puts more trust in God’s written word than in human reasoning.
“Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.” – Proverbs 3:5
“There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” – Proverbs 14:12
quote:
Well, the "second book" is God's creation, so you are agreeing that God's creation teaches that the sun and stars preceded the existence of plants. You are also accusing God's creation of false witness.
I am accusing the “second book” philosophy of false witness. This accusation is confirmed by the fact that its doctrines are in diametric opposition to clear Biblical doctrines.
While the creation attests to God’s power and glory it does NOT provide us with the details of origins. While science can inform us of how the creation operates it can tell us nothing of how it originated. For those we must rely solely on God’s written word.
_____________________________
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 11:05:47 AM
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unclemonkey
Posts: 718
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ORIGINAL: essentialsaltesquote:
Although you occasionally squeeze a 'philosophy' in there, you are really stating that the external universe is a Satanic lie.
No. I am stating that the interpretations of the physical evidence that contradict clear Biblical doctrine are satanic lies.
quote:
If you hold to a young earth perspective, do you believe the atomic and isotopic composition of the rocks of the earth, moon and meteorites are the work of a deceptive God or a deceptive Satan?
No. I am saying that the assumptions plugged into the calculations that confirm billions of years are satanic lies. With a change in the assumptions the ages can be brought in line with a 6,000 year old universe.
Assumptions are the product of worldview, not evidence.
_____________________________
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 11:13:15 AM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:methodquote:
The Bible was written and is interpretted by humans through reason. So much for the Bible.
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine,” – 2nd Timothy 3:16a
So much for atheist propaganda.
_____________________________
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 11:21:56 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3075
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quote:
The Bible was written and is interpretted by humans through reason. So much for the Bible For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength - 1 Cor 1:25. So much for Method's "wisdom"!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 11:23:41 AM
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Method
Posts: 820
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine,” – 2nd Timothy 3:16a
So much for atheist propaganda.
So says Paul and Unclemonkey, both of whom are men. So I guess I can safely ignore it.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 11:38:42 AM
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unclemonkey
Posts: 718
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ORIGINAL:methodquote:
So says Paul and Unclemonkey, both of whom are men. So I guess I can safely ignore it.
If you think you can safely ignore God you are sadly mistaken. However, God gave you free choice so just keep repeating that while you are burning in hell.
_____________________________
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 12:04:13 PM
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Method
Posts: 820
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
If you think you can safely ignore God you are sadly mistaken.
I am not ignoring God. I am ignoring Paul and you, both of whom are untrustworthy by your criteria.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 12:30:38 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1026
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The ratio of various radionuclides in various rocks is not philosophy, but fact. The earth and the universe has, at the very least, the appearance of age.
Pay attention, es. The ratios of isotopes is factual evidence; the interpretation of those ratios in drawing conclusions about age is philosophy!
I know you and unclemonkey are unconvinced that the earth is actually old, but I'm only (for the moment) making the case that it appears old. The isotopic ratios are indeed facts, and these facts appear just like the ashes of a billions of years old fire. Even different fuels give the appearance of consistent billion-year ages. The consistency of zircon ages on the concordance line appears to be a huge coincidence from a YE standpoint.
These isotopic ratios must (I suppose, from your standpoint) be the work of a designer.
Who designed the isotopic ratios of rocks?
Did God make the rocks like this, or did Satan?
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 12:36:28 PM
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drj11
Posts: 632
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
You have missed the point, but you are not far off. It is not possible to put a higher priority on human reasoning than God’s written word without implying that God is deceitful.
No, I made exactly the point that I intended to make.
You still can't get around the fact that it takes human reason to interpret the words in the Bible just as it takes reason to interpret scientific evidence. The meanings of the stories are filtered through human reason, just like scientific evidence, thus they are subject to the same misinterpretation. How little you must think of your own God and his book to make such shallow contrivances of his word; so shallow in fact, that they are unable to stand up to human reason.
What a terrible world it must be for a fundamentalist to live in. The devil must everywhere. While most us will be marveling at new discoveries revealed to us through careful scientific study, and while the sensible religious will continue to tackle the tough theological questions in hopes of understanding what these new discoveries tell them about God, the fundamentalist will be bitterly sneering and scoffing while proclaiming it is all the work of the devil. How miserable that must be.
< Message edited by drj11 -- 5/28/2008 12:42:48 PM >
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 1:06:09 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3075
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quote:
I know you and unclemonkey are unconvinced that the earth is actually old, Wrong again! I cannot speak for uncmonk but I'm firmly convinced that the earth is old - actually about 6000 years old! So what's the big conflict here? 
quote:
The isotopic ratios are indeed facts, and these facts appear just like the ashes of a billions of years old fire. Isotope ratios are data that must be interpreted to result in conclusions regarding age. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
quote:
These isotopic ratios must (I suppose, from your standpoint) be the work of a designer. Well, only indirectly. The isotopes were designed and created by God, but the changing ratios are the result of natural processes set into motion by his Sovereign power. I'm not sure what your point is here.
quote:
Who designed the isotopic ratios of rocks?
Did God make the rocks like this, or did Satan? This is a senseless question, es. Satan is a created being and has only limited supernatural abilities as allowed by God. Now one thing that you frequently forget is that Satan plays a significant role in the Curse related to original sin which is adversely influencing all of creation at present. Again, this is NOT God's original design for the universe, rather it is the result of man's wicked choices to reject Him. Is that enough theology for you?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 1:18:05 PM
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Method
Posts: 820
Joined: 9/19/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Wrong again! I cannot speak for uncmonk but I'm firmly convinced that the earth is old - actually about 6000 years old! So what's the big conflict here?
The conflict between your claims and the evidence such as galaxies billions of light years away.
quote:
Isotope ratios are data that must be interpreted to result in conclusions regarding age. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
And by every test these isotope ratios are correctly interpretted. Why is this so hard to understand?
How is it that we can predict what type of fossils will be in a geologic strata by measuring the ratio of isotopes in the igneous rocks which surround the strata?
quote:
Well, only indirectly. The isotopes were designed and created by God, but the changing ratios are the result of natural processes set into motion by his Sovereign power. I'm not sure what your point is here.
The that makes God a deceiver in that these isotopes indicate an age much greater than the Bible supposedly indicates.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 1:45:34 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1026
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The isotopic ratios are indeed facts, and these facts appear just like the ashes of a billions of years old fire.
Isotope ratios are data that must be interpreted to result in conclusions regarding age. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
I understand it fine. One interpretation is internally consistent, based on multiple lines of evidence, and sensitive to sources of possible error.
I'm trying to probe your interpretation, which requires a conspiracy of rocks. The rocks have conspired to produce the appearance of a consistent billions-year age of the earth through multiple methods, isotopes and cross-checks. Who is the author of this conspiracy?
quote:
quote:
Who designed the isotopic ratios of rocks?
Did God make the rocks like this, or did Satan? This is a senseless question, es. Satan is a created being and has only limited supernatural abilities as allowed by God. Now one thing that you frequently forget is that Satan plays a significant role in the Curse related to original sin which is adversely influencing all of creation at present. Again, this is NOT God's original design for the universe, rather it is the result of man's wicked choices to reject Him. Is that enough theology for you?
More than enough theology for me. I was hoping for an answer. Acceptable answers include: God, Satan, or "I don't know".
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 2:06:51 PM
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unclemonkey
Posts: 718
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ORIGINAL:drj11quote:
No, I made exactly the point that I intended to make.
Well, then the point you intended to make is wrong.
The point I made is the correct one. Gluadys agrees that there is no conflict between correctly understood Bible doctrine and correctly understood science.
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;” – Romans 5:12
Please explain how any doctrine that says death and sin are unrelated doesn’t contradict clear Biblical doctrine.
quote:
What a terrible world it must be for a fundamentalist to live in.
Yes, it is a terrible world. However, that is only because it is suffering from the destructive effects of sin. Not to worry though as God will soon completely destroy it with fire and Heaven is a much better place to be.
quote:
The devil must everywhere.
No, but he does have enough assistants to convince the gullible that he is.
BTW, if you reject God’s free gift made possible by Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross you better enjoy what time you have on this polluted planet because even with all its disease, natural disasters, crime and wars it is still a far better place to be than hell.
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:” – Hebrews 9:27
Do you not expect to eventually die?
_____________________________
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 2:12:12 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
I am accusing the “second book” philosophy of false witness. This accusation is confirmed by the fact that its doctrines are in diametric opposition to clear Biblical doctrines.
Clear biblical doctrines? Where does the bible clearly tell you that we are not to pay attention to what God's creation says? Does the Bible not actually point us again and again to creation as a valid witness?
Where does the bible give you a clear directive on how to determine whether God is giving a scientific report of past events or telling a story as a basis of instruction in morals?
All biblical doctrines, including yours, are based on fallible human interpretations of scripture.
Can you show me how the scripture itself leads to your particular interpretation of scripture?
quote:
While the creation attests to God’s power and glory it does NOT provide us with the details of origins.
Well, actually, it does. We may not understand all the details yet, but scientists have certainly got some good working models that meet the test of evidence and prediction.
quote:
While science can inform us of how the creation operates it can tell us nothing of how it originated. For those we must rely solely on God’s written word.
We certainly have to depend on scripture to tell us that it was God who brought creation into being. But science can provide a lot of information on what the process looked like physically.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 2:12:23 PM
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drj11
Posts: 632
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
BTW, if you reject God’s free gift made possible by Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross you better enjoy what time you have on this polluted planet because even with all its disease, natural disasters, crime and wars it is still a far better place to be than hell.
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:” – Hebrews 9:27
Do you not expect to eventually die?
And you call ME gullible?  I wonder if you believe based on love.. or fear. I think the latter.
< Message edited by drj11 -- 5/28/2008 2:18:49 PM >
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 2:28:15 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
ORIGNAL:glusdysquote:
Maybe with someone other than unclemonkey.
Or anyone else who puts more trust in God’s written word than in human reasoning.
“Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.” – Proverbs 3:5
“There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” – Proverbs 14:12
Two can play at that game:
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.--Proverbs 25:2
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; --Luke 10:27
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. --1 Corinthians 13:11
Indeed, I wonder how anyone who reads Paul can denigrate the use of reason, since so much of his preaching uses reason and logic to make his points.
You, in fact, depend on the same power of reason to understand scripture as a scientist does to understand creation. It is the same human faculty and if it is capable of understanding the written word it is also capable of understanding the works of creation.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 2:29:47 PM
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draexo
Posts: 340
Joined: 1/26/2007
From: Saratoga County, New York
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drj11
quote:
ORIGINAL: swan42
quote:
I grew up believing there were nine planets in the solar system. Now science has changed its mind again.
This is considered a good thing and illustrates the differences between scientists and fundamentalists (Islamic or Christian).
A scientist seeks truth and is willing to correct oneself when faced with contrary evidence.
A fundamentalist seeks truth and sticks fingers in each ear when faced with contrary evidence.
Isnt it funny? Every time science unabashedly and openly corrects itself, they see it as a sign of unreliability.
They then hold up their religion as reliable, because it never (refuses) corrects itself!! (at least in the fundamentalists case).
No. Quite the contrary - it is a sign of truth-seeking.
The problem I have is that there is clearly more evidence - from a scientific viewpoint - for creation than evolution - and yet some Christians deny this.
_____________________________
The truth will set you free!
TRUTH
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 2:35:59 PM
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swan42
Posts: 347
Joined: 5/3/2008
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quote:
The problem I have is that there is clearly more evidence - from a scientific viewpoint - for creation than evolution - and yet some Christians deny this.
Yet, 99% of biological scientists disagree. Yet, 9x% of astronomers disagree. Yet, 9x% of geologists disagree.
http://www.csicop.org/scienceandmedia/evolution/
< Message edited by swan42 -- 5/28/2008 2:42:35 PM >
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 2:37:14 PM
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draexo
Posts: 340
Joined: 1/26/2007
From: Saratoga County, New York
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: swan42
quote:
The problem I have is that there is clearly more evidence - from a scientific viewpoint - for creation than evolution - and yet some Christians deny this.
Yet, 99% of biological scientists disagree. Yet, 9x% of astronomers disagree. Yet, 9x% of geologists disagree.
They do? I suspect that your percentages are more closer to 85%.
And again - if everyone was jumping off the bridge, would you?
_____________________________
The truth will set you free!
TRUTH
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 2:39:52 PM
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swan42
Posts: 347
Joined: 5/3/2008
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quote:
They do? I suspect that your percentages are more closer to 85%.
And again - if everyone was jumping off the bridge, would you
I'm picking some of my numbers from memory... but go ahead and confirm them for me. I'd be delighted.
The trend that is true is that the more likely one's education and area of expertise involve an old universe, the more likely they are not also a YEC.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 2:59:31 PM
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drj11
Posts: 632
Joined: 3/29/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: draexo
quote:
ORIGINAL: drj11
quote:
ORIGINAL: swan42
quote:
I grew up believing there were nine planets in the solar system. Now science has changed its mind again.
This is considered a good thing and illustrates the differences between scientists and fundamentalists (Islamic or Christian).
A scientist seeks truth and is willing to correct oneself when faced with contrary evidence.
A fundamentalist seeks truth and sticks fingers in each ear when faced with contrary evidence.
Isnt it funny? Every time science unabashedly and openly corrects itself, they see it as a sign of unreliability.
They then hold up their religion as reliable, because it never (refuses) corrects itself!! (at least in the fundamentalists case).
No. Quite the contrary - it is a sign of truth-seeking.
The problem I have is that there is clearly more evidence - from a scientific viewpoint - for creation than evolution - and yet some Christians deny this.
I'd actually be delighted to see some of this scientific evidence. I started a thread exactly for this purpose a couple months ago, here, but there havnt really been any takers.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 5/28/2008 3:03:49 PM
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Method
Posts: 820
Joined: 9/19/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: draexo
quote:
ORIGINAL: swan42
quote:
The problem I have is that there is clearly more evidence - from a scientific viewpoint - for creation than evolution - and yet some Christians deny this.
Yet, 99% of biological scientists disagree. Yet, 9x% of astronomers disagree. Yet, 9x% of geologists disagree.
They do? I suspect that your percentages are more closer to 85%.
And again - if everyone was jumping off the bridge, would you?
Of the scientists and engineers in the United States, only about 5% are creationists, according to a 1991 Gallup poll (Robinson 1995, Witham 1997). However, this number includes those working in fields not related to life origins (such as computer scientists, mechanical engineers, etc.). Taking into account only those working in the relevant fields of earth and life sciences, there are about 480,000 scientists, but only about 700 believe in "creation-science" or consider it a valid theory (Robinson 1995). This means that less than 0.15 percent of relevant scientists believe in creationism. And that is just in the United States, which has more creationists than any other industrialized country. In other countries, the number of relevant scientists who accept creationism drops to less than one tenth of 1 percent.
Link
Also, if 99.9% of relevant experts told you that jumping off that bridge would kill you would you ignore their expertise?
< Message edited by Method -- 5/28/2008 3:10:28 PM >
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