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John 6:66 - 5/24/2008 8:32:48 PM
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ReadingAlong
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New American Standard Bible
As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
King James Bible
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
In your opinion, what was it about Jesus' teaching that was so difficult to accept that even disciples abandoned Him? (not just people in the crowd, but disciples)
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RE: John 6:66 - 5/24/2008 8:56:25 PM
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drmark
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I'm sure you realize, ReadingAlong, from reading along in John 6:43-59 that the difficult teaching centered on Jesus' requirement that we must "eat His flesh and drink His blood" in order to have real life that pleases God. John 6:56 appears to me to be the key verse and one of many that proclaim our relationship as Believers in Christ and Christ in us as Believers.
Now, I think the hard part is not just the material improbability of Jesus offering His flesh for food but a much deeper concept related to Levitical Law. Look at Leviticus 17:10-14 and notice not only the prohibition against eating/drinking blood but the divine explanation: the life of a creature is in its blood! Thus, Jesus is not-so-subtlely commanding that we must take His very life into our own being if we want to live abundantly, eternally, and for God's glory. This is also called in my doctrinal tradition the impartation of righteousness.
Hope that helps put some fresh perspective on a fascinating teaching of Jesus. BTW, welcome to the Forums!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: John 6:66 - 5/24/2008 9:07:35 PM
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ReadingAlong
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Thank you for the welcome, and your response!
I was a little surprised when I came to post the question ... I hadn't really noticed the chapter & verse until I posted it ... 6:66 
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RE: John 6:66 - 5/24/2008 9:24:51 PM
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drmark
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Now, RA, let's not be superstitious. I'm sure you know that chapter and verse divisions were added much later to the original text for ease of reading and reference.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: John 6:66 - 5/24/2008 10:02:41 PM
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LCannon
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Although repentance is absolute forgiveness is often measured in atonement to an ideal or teaching. "Talk is cheap, show me your faith without obedience and I will show you my faith by my obedience." James 2:17,18
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"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: John 6:66 - 5/24/2008 10:49:54 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Although repentance is absolute forgiveness is often measured in atonement to an ideal or teaching. I'm sorry, LC, but you need to repost this for clarity.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: John 6:66 - 5/25/2008 3:41:20 AM
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BibleL7
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if you read the next verses you will see that the 12 did not leave.
Many of Jesus' teaching were hard for some. Jesus also said many are called yet few are chosen and to count the cost. Also that to be His disciple you must deny self this is not an easy thing to do. Perhaps the factor of having to leave behind sin and love first and foremost the Lord is also part. Is why many so-called churches do not metion being righteous or born again or forsaking sin and self these days they want many numbers and do not care for souls yet only money and power. Jesus didnt want followers that were not willing to obey Him.
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RE: John 6:66 - 5/27/2008 6:41:21 AM
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pmilst
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ReadingAlong
New American Standard Bible
As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
King James Bible
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
In your opinion, what was it about Jesus' teaching that was so difficult to accept that even disciples abandoned Him? (not just people in the crowd, but disciples)
Remember that the parable of the soils shows that some of the seed sprang forth to life and was choked due to the cares of this world. Another parable says that we do not need to "put our hand to the plow and look back". Discipleship can be frought with life distractions. Some remain true to course and others choose to look back.
_____________________________
1 Cor. 2: 9-10 "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit..."
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RE: John 6:66 - 5/28/2008 12:52:40 AM
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JordanW
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I think that they had a tough time following because they had a hard time following what he preached.
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Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth, and The Life.
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RE: John 6:66 - 5/28/2008 1:35:17 AM
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jlynnstites
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ReadingAlong
Thank you for the welcome, and your response!
I was a little surprised when I came to post the question ... I hadn't really noticed the chapter & verse until I posted it ... 6:66
For superstitious' sakes I just wanted to note that Jesus also has a number and it's 888. I can't remember anything about it except that. I went to a service a few years back at my sister's church and that was something the Preacher was talking about. But just thought if we are getting superstitious here, it's something good to chew over.
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RE: John 6:66 - 5/28/2008 5:08:00 AM
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pmilst
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ReadingAlong
New American Standard Bible
As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
King James Bible
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
The teachings on the mount are taxing, to turn the other cheek is not natural, to consume (study for the purpose of obedience) the teachings of Jesus (which are the Father's commands) takes discipline, to put the needs of others in a superior position to your own, makes us deny self. These characteristics are otherworldly (heavenly) therefore our whole mental attitude has to change, "the things of this world become strangely dim, in the light of His glory and grace".
_____________________________
1 Cor. 2: 9-10 "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit..."
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RE: John 6:66 - 5/29/2008 12:14:42 AM
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Jerryweirich
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ReadingAlong
New American Standard Bible
As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
King James Bible
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
In your opinion, what was it about Jesus' teaching that was so difficult to accept that even disciples abandoned Him? (not just people in the crowd, but disciples)
To help maybe clarify this the word "disciple" does not always just include the 12 original disciples, but in the broader sense simply means "followers". So in many cases in the gospels when this word is used it can mean anybody that was following him and listening to his teachings, a believer or not a believer.
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RE: John 6:66 - 5/29/2008 12:41:19 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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John 6:65-66 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
John
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RE: John 6:66 - 5/31/2008 11:07:59 PM
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lmwal931
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this is tough for me as it was for the disciples. i don't understand why HE SAID it. but i would never leave because i didn't comprehend.
my best so far is to say that JESUS will do most anything to get you saved.
HE knows it is the FATHER'S will that none be lost.
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RE: John 6:66 - 5/31/2008 11:31:16 PM
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lmwal931
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many yrs ago dr. efird of duke univ. told me the numerical value of JESUS in hebrew, greek, and latin. 888, 386, & 193. 888: 3 is symbolic of JESUS. also of thetruth. JESUS is the truth. 2 is babies. when you accept JESUS 2 PLUS 3 = 5 later when you die5 plus 3 =8 1 symbolizes the FATHER. 9 the HOLY SPIRIT. i interpret numbers, colors, and letters. always for GOD'S glory. numerology is of satan.
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/1/2008 9:18:08 AM
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drmark
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quote:
numerology is of satan. Then stop messing around with it, Imwal931!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/1/2008 9:45:01 AM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
...Now, I think the hard part is not just the material improbability of Jesus offering His flesh for food but a much deeper concept related to Levitical Law. Look at Leviticus 17:10-14 and notice not only the prohibition against eating/drinking blood but the divine explanation: the life of a creature is in its blood! Thus, Jesus is not-so-subtlely commanding that we must take His very life into our own being if we want to live abundantly, eternally, and for God's glory. This is also called in my doctrinal tradition the impartation of righteousness.
I agree, I think this is it exactly.
This was only one of several things about Jesus that gave the appearance of Him being against the law of Moses, and which made it hard for the Jews to accept Him as being from God. I really don't blame them a bit. I often wonder what I would have thought of a person who comes along and says things that are seemingly contrary to the law, and who claims to be the Messiah.
I had been thinking about starting a thread where we all list the things Jesus did and said that seem so anti-Moses. I suppose some really are, but are now legitimate under the New Covenant...like accepting a ransom for a murderer, which God has done for all of us.
Oh, I want to point out how the blood of the sacrifice, that has the life in it and was not to be eaten under the Old Covenant but can now be eaten in the New Covenant, is an illustration for us to understand how limited the law was at giving life in direct contrast to the abundance of life that is available for us to partake of in the New Covenant.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/1/2008 5:33:43 PM
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drmark
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Thanks, SpongeBlog, I was beginning to wonder if I was out in left field with my response!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/1/2008 5:59:01 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Thanks, SpongeBlog, I was beginning to wonder if I was out in left field with my response!
Yeah, it's almost like you asked everybody to...eat your flesh and drink your blood or something!
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/1/2008 10:25:26 PM
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lmwal931
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my interpretations of no. always glorify GOD
john starts off "in the beginning was the word". the truth is to be substituted for word. in the beginning was the truth and the truth became flesh and the truth is JESUS CHRIST.
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/2/2008 6:52:36 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
...Now, I think the hard part is not just the material improbability of Jesus offering His flesh for food but a much deeper concept related to Levitical Law. Look at Leviticus 17:10-14 and notice not only the prohibition against eating/drinking blood but the divine explanation: the life of a creature is in its blood! Thus, Jesus is not-so-subtlely commanding that we must take His very life into our own being if we want to live abundantly, eternally, and for God's glory. This is also called in my doctrinal tradition the impartation of righteousness.
I agree, I think this is it exactly.
This was only one of several things about Jesus that gave the appearance of Him being against the law of Moses, and which made it hard for the Jews to accept Him as being from God. I really don't blame them a bit. I often wonder what I would have thought of a person who comes along and says things that are seemingly contrary to the law, and who claims to be the Messiah.
I had been thinking about starting a thread where we all list the things Jesus did and said that seem so anti-Moses. I suppose some really are, but are now legitimate under the New Covenant...like accepting a ransom for a murderer, which God has done for all of us.
Oh, I want to point out how the blood of the sacrifice, that has the life in it and was not to be eaten under the Old Covenant but can now be eaten in the New Covenant, is an illustration for us to understand how limited the law was at giving life in direct contrast to the abundance of life that is available for us to partake of in the New Covenant.
Again this is a blurring of redemption and righteous living. The cup Yeshua(Jesus) is refering to in the Pesach Seder(lord's supper) is the cup of redemption it has always been understood that this cup represents the blood of the sacrifice. Of course, they knew that it was not actually the blood of the sacrifice, as this would violate Torah. It is the catholics that came up with the concept of transsubstantiation with regard to the cup. When Yeshua(Jesus) says this is the covenmant in my blood, he is putting Himself in the place of the lamb not the cup. The Pesach Seder is a highly symbolic practice and so, I believe the statements Yeshua(Jesus) makes with regard to it should be taken as symbolic and not literal.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/2/2008 7:13:05 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
...Now, I think the hard part is not just the material improbability of Jesus offering His flesh for food but a much deeper concept related to Levitical Law. Look at Leviticus 17:10-14 and notice not only the prohibition against eating/drinking blood but the divine explanation: the life of a creature is in its blood! Thus, Jesus is not-so-subtlely commanding that we must take His very life into our own being if we want to live abundantly, eternally, and for God's glory. This is also called in my doctrinal tradition the impartation of righteousness.
I agree, I think this is it exactly.
This was only one of several things about Jesus that gave the appearance of Him being against the law of Moses, and which made it hard for the Jews to accept Him as being from God. I really don't blame them a bit. I often wonder what I would have thought of a person who comes along and says things that are seemingly contrary to the law, and who claims to be the Messiah.
I had been thinking about starting a thread where we all list the things Jesus did and said that seem so anti-Moses. I suppose some really are, but are now legitimate under the New Covenant...like accepting a ransom for a murderer, which God has done for all of us.
Oh, I want to point out how the blood of the sacrifice, that has the life in it and was not to be eaten under the Old Covenant but can now be eaten in the New Covenant, is an illustration for us to understand how limited the law was at giving life in direct contrast to the abundance of life that is available for us to partake of in the New Covenant.
Again this is a blurring of redemption and righteous living. The cup Yeshua(Jesus) is refering to in the Pesach Seder(lord's supper) is the cup of redemption it has always been understood that this cup represents the blood of the sacrifice. Of course, they knew that it was not actually the blood of the sacrifice, as this would violate Torah. It is the catholics that came up with the concept of transsubstantiation with regard to the cup. When Yeshua(Jesus) says this is the covenmant in my blood, he is putting Himself in the place of the lamb not the cup. The Pesach Seder is a highly symbolic practice and so, I believe the statements Yeshua(Jesus) makes with regard to it should be taken as symbolic and not literal.
I agree that Jesus is referring to His flesh and blood symbolically. It's interesting how the spiritual and symbolic truth seems so contrary to the literal law...that's my point. We see a lot of that in the person of Jesus which makes Him the very stumbling block He said He was going to be--especially to the Jews. How ironic.
Once a person sees the full import of the spiritual, they can see how the literal was nothing more than a symbol-an illustration to help us understand what really matters. I don't believe it wasn't meant as a righteous guideline for healthy, beneficial living.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/2/2008 7:58:11 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
I agree that Jesus is referring to His flesh and blood symbolically. It's interesting how the spiritual and symbolic truth seems so contrary to the literal law...that's my point. We see a lot of that in the person of Jesus which makes Him the very stumbling block He said He was going to be--especially to the Jews. How ironic.
Once a person sees the full import of the spiritual, they can see how the literal was nothing more than a symbol-an illustration to help us understand what really matters. I don't believe it wasn't meant as a righteous guideline for healthy, beneficial living.
So, when one says one jumps into the sack every night, one is saying that literally jumping into a sack is now a wise thing to do? No one is simply providing a word picture that shows ones ernest desire to sleep each night. In the same way Yeshua(Jesus) is not saying that the prohibition agianst eating blood has been lifted.
He is saying that, as we remember our redemption through the shedding of blood by drinking the cup of redemption, we also remember to share in the affliction of Yeshua by eating the matzah(unleavened bread of affliction). Therefore, if the observance of Pesach is not necessary because it is a literal commandment, then "communion" should be of even less value since it is a literal ritual that is derived from the Pesach Seder. I'm not so sure we should be so literal in our attempts to spiritualize things.
I presume you did not intend the double negative in the last sentence.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/2/2008 9:35:16 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
Therefore, if the observance of Pesach is not necessary because it is a literal commandment, then "communion" should be of even less value since it is a literal ritual that is derived from the Pesach Seder
didn't' Jews sneak into the church of Galatia and try to trick the Christians into following in their rituals and ceremonies?
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/2/2008 9:42:19 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, when one says one jumps into the sack every night, one is saying that literally jumping into a sack is now a wise thing to do?
Don't you agree your illustration isn't about how or when you get into bed, it's all about the more important thing of getting the rest one needs. See my point now as this relates to the blood? You can continue in the legalism of the literal command, or you can rejoice in the spiritual reality it represents.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
No one is simply providing a word picture that shows ones ernest desire to sleep each night.
Right, so it doesn't matter if I 'jump' in the sack, or whether I slide in slowly, or if I sleep on the couch upright. But until one fully understands the intent is about the more important matter of sleep, they might be inclined to insist everyone 'jump into the sack' every night. This illustrates my point exactly.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
In the same way Yeshua(Jesus) is not saying that the prohibition agianst eating blood has been lifted.
True. He doesn't come right out and say that. Especially since He's not talking about literally drinking His blood anyway. But an overall picture emerges from the truths of the NT that show us how true worship is internal and spiritual, and not so much outward and literal. And that true worship is not governed by potentially deceitful external regulations.
I wouldn't get too excited about this blood thing anyway. In this day and age few of us are slaughtering our own animals. And people have said in this forum who defend not eating blood that the messy red juice dripping out of the porterhouse steak waiting it's turn to be grilled is not blood.
It's like the matter of the law of not muzzling the ox while it's treading out the grain. Concerning that command, Paul asks the Corinthians this question: "is it about oxen that God is concerned? Surely he says this for us, doesn't he?" (1 Cor. 9:9-10). See, we learn much from little snippets of truth like this in the NT. All these little snippets add up to the overall picture in the NT that teaches us what really matters and focuses us on that. The law of not muzzling an ox is a legitimate precedant to help us learn how to discern God's true spiritual intentions hidden (or veiled) in the law. Or more accurately veiled by the law.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
He is saying that, as we remember our redemption through the shedding of blood by drinking the cup of redemption, we also remember to share in the affliction of Yeshua by eating the matzah(unleavened bread of affliction).
No. We partake of the bread to commemorate the Bread of life that has come down from heaven to nourish the whole world to eternal life. Jesus Himself details the meaning for us in John 6.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Therefore, if the observance of Pesach is not necessary because it is a literal commandment...
A very unfair and misleading generalization completely isolated from any explanation. Have I generalized your argument as, 'it's literal so we must do it'...oh, wait...that is your argument. Sorry.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...then "communion" should be of even less value since it is a literal ritual that is derived from the Pesach Seder. I'm not so sure we should be so literal in our attempts to spiritualize things.
I'm amused by that..."literal in our attempts to spiritualize things".
Jesus plainly tells us to commemorate His work in sealing the New Covenant in the same way He symbolized it that night. That's not even an arguable or debatable point--a cup of wine that symbolizes His blood, and a loaf of bread that symbolizes His Body. What is the misunderstanding? Nothing has been diclosed or learned since then to understand them in any other way than what He taught. And until then, we will continue to do that.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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