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RE: John 6:66 - 6/2/2008 9:53:01 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...if the observance of Pesach is not necessary because it is a literal commandment, then "communion" should be of even less value since it is a literal ritual that is derived from the Pesach Seder.
Oh, I see what you're driving at now.
Doesn't the fact that even Jesus didn't adhere to a literal Mosaic Passover tell you anything? That is more compelling evidence for my position than what you are trying to suggest with your question. I mean even Jesus steers us away from the literal Mosaic Passover observance and toward a new ordinance patterned after His work of redemption on the cross!
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/2/2008 10:28:15 PM
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ta_mosquito
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please do not turn this into a debate about keeping the Law (or observing Passover). That is NOT the topic of this thread.
Thank you!
Tricia
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/3/2008 8:20:43 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Again this is a blurring of redemption and righteous living. Bluethread, it would only be blurred for one who does not believe that redemption must lead to righteous living. Salvation and sanctification go hand-in-hand. That is my belief and it is based on irrefutable Scripture and my own personal experience!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/3/2008 8:26:03 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
...Salvation and sanctification go hand-in-hand...
Amen! Or to put it another way, a living faith produces works of holiness and righteousness.
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/3/2008 8:30:31 AM
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drmark
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Exactly, and that is accomplished only through the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit - symbolically stated by Jesus as "eating my flesh and drinking my blood", so as to take the very essence of His Holy Life into ours.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/3/2008 12:03:10 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doer
quote:
Therefore, if the observance of Pesach is not necessary because it is a literal commandment, then "communion" should be of even less value since it is a literal ritual that is derived from the Pesach Seder
didn't' Jews sneak into the church of Galatia and try to trick the Christians into following in their rituals and ceremonies?
Isn't "eating my flesh and drinking my blood" a reference to "communion"? Where did the ritual of "communion" came from?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 6/3/2008 12:15:46 PM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/3/2008 12:14:03 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Exactly, and that is accomplished only through the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit - symbolically stated by Jesus as "eating my flesh and drinking my blood", so as to take the very essence of His Holy Life into ours.
drmark do you take "communion" and why?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/3/2008 9:15:01 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: doer
quote:
Therefore, if the observance of Pesach is not necessary because it is a literal commandment, then "communion" should be of even less value since it is a literal ritual that is derived from the Pesach Seder
didn't' Jews sneak into the church of Galatia and try to trick the Christians into following in their rituals and ceremonies?
Isn't "eating my flesh and drinking my blood" a reference to "communion"? Where did the ritual of "communion" came from?
I cannot deny that this sacrament, this rite, this ritual which was established by my Saviour with the words "do this in remembrance of Me" is important to me.... why is it???
My identity is in Christ Jesus, and NOT in the mosaic law. all of the law pointed to our Saviour.
We are no longer "under the law" (see 1 cor 9:20)
if were were, we would all be doomed.
(sorry Tricia, I was just answering the question)
I never really thought of it as a ritual... it is just a part of who I am.
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/4/2008 11:58:44 AM
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drmark
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quote:
drmark do you take "communion" and why? Jesus' discusion in John 6 has NOTHING to do with communion! That sacrament was first institued over two years after Jesus discussed this teaching which specifically relates to us abiding in Christ and He in us.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/4/2008 12:40:05 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
drmark do you take "communion" and why? Jesus' discusion in John 6 has NOTHING to do with communion! That sacrament was first institued over two years after Jesus discussed this teaching which specifically relates to us abiding in Christ and He in us.
The reason I asked if you take communion is off topic for now. So let me ask it this way. Do you believe Yeshua(Jesus) lived in a vacuum and did not take the ideas and experiences of His audience into account when He communicated with them? What was involved in eating and drinking at that time?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/4/2008 1:08:25 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doer
I never really thought of it as a ritual... it is just a part of who I am.
1 Corinthians 11:23-34
23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
Which bread and cup is He talking about? I am sure that Yeshua(Jesus) and His disciples thought of that bread and cup as part of who they were also. I am not arguing for any ritual here. I am am just wondering, if we are to interpret this verse as refering to or commemorated by a ritual, what ritual would that be and for what reason?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 6/4/2008 1:15:40 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/5/2008 9:11:03 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Do you believe Yeshua(Jesus) lived in a vacuum and did not take the ideas and experiences of His audience into account when He communicated with them? What was involved in eating and drinking at that time? Did you read my very first post of this thread? Obviously, Jesus understood precisely what His audience would infer when He stated one must eat and drink of Me in order to have eternal life. This is a word picture of the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit enabling us to live the righteous life in, through, and with Christ.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/5/2008 1:01:18 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Do you believe Yeshua(Jesus) lived in a vacuum and did not take the ideas and experiences of His audience into account when He communicated with them? What was involved in eating and drinking at that time?
Did you read my very first post of this thread? Obviously, Jesus understood precisely what His audience would infer when He stated one must eat and drink of Me in order to have eternal life. This is a word picture of the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit enabling us to live the righteous life in, through, and with Christ.
What I am refering to is the culture. Every meal begins and/or ends, depending on the rabbinic practice prefered by the household, with a barucha(blessing), which recognizes Adonai's creation of the bread of the earth and the fruit of the vine. In my opinion, this context needs to be considered in all discussions of eating and drinking in the Scriptures. This along with all of the other connotations that have been added from the Pesach Seder to the manna in the wilderness to the rabbinic commentaries of Yeshua's time, make this a statement with many implications. Therefore, in my opinion, to simply see this as "a word picture of the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit enabling us to live the righteous life in, through, and with Christ" misses a lot of its value.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/5/2008 1:31:42 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Therefore, in my opinion, to simply see this as "a word picture of the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit enabling us to live the righteous life in, through, and with Christ" misses a lot of its value. Well Bluethread, to emphasize the value of 2000 year old rabbinic traditions over the reality of the present indwelling power of the Holy Spirit is certainly your perogative. I know what God considers important in my life and that's what I consider simply valuable to me.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/5/2008 3:39:43 PM
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Bluethread
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That is if it is Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit) that is for sure. But, as I eluded to in my first two examples, I like to check with the Scriptures to make sure. Also, if I were to talk to people about the proper way to see things, I would talk to them in terms they are famliar with to begin with. This appears to be what Yeshua(Jesus) and Paul did and as the song says, "If it's good enough for Paul and Silas, then its good enough for me." But, we don't know for sure whether that was written by Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit), do we?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 6/5/2008 3:48:16 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/5/2008 4:51:19 PM
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drmark
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quote:
This appears to be what Yeshua(Jesus) and Paul did and as the song says, "If it's good enough for Paul and Silas, then its good enough for me." But, we don't know for sure whether that was written by Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit), do we? It's not in my Bible - do you have a reference for that in yours?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/6/2008 12:45:23 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
This appears to be what Yeshua(Jesus) and Paul did and as the song says, "If it's good enough for Paul and Silas, then its good enough for me." But, we don't know for sure whether that was written by Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit), do we?
It's not in my Bible - do you have a reference for that in yours?
I was refering to the song not being written by Ha Ruach(The Spirirt)
It is apparent that both Yeshua(Jesus) and Paul took into account the background of their audiences. In fact Paul clearly says that he does.
I Cor 9:20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/6/2008 4:27:18 PM
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justajerk
Posts: 129
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I'm sure you realize, ReadingAlong, from reading along in John 6:43-59 that the difficult teaching centered on Jesus' requirement that we must "eat His flesh and drink His blood" in order to have real life that pleases God. John 6:56 appears to me to be the key verse and one of many that proclaim our relationship as Believers in Christ and Christ in us as Believers.
Now, I think the hard part is not just the material improbability of Jesus offering His flesh for food but a much deeper concept related to Levitical Law. Look at Leviticus 17:10-14 and notice not only the prohibition against eating/drinking blood but the divine explanation: the life of a creature is in its blood! Thus, Jesus is not-so-subtlely commanding that we must take His very life into our own being if we want to live abundantly, eternally, and for God's glory. This is also called in my doctrinal tradition the impartation of righteousness.
Hello,
I’ve been reading this chapter (John 6) and I’ll admit that I am not in agreement with some on what the offense was that made these followers turn away. It seems that most would say as you, that it was Jesus speaking of eating his flesh and drinking his blood in verses 52-58. However I think it had more to do with his saying that he had come down from his Father in heaven, and that no man could come to him unless the Father draws him. (vs. 32-40). I think this is why they started grumbling in v.41-42, and this is also why when Jesus explained Himself, He didn’t say something like “hey, I wasn’t talking about eating me literally!” Instead he said this:
“Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?" (v.62).
Notice that Jesus reference’s back to the very start of the discourse where in v.27 He calls Himself “the Son of Man”, and in v.29 that He was “sent” from God.
And then to cap it off (and this is where they turned and left), he said:
“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”(v.65)
As has been mentioned already, the Jews understood the whole drinking the cup and eating the bread idea. And, they were very comfortable with a sovereign God; but this Jesus whom they knew as Josephs son, was now telling them that He was the son of God in whom the chosen would believe, but not all Jew’s were God’s chosen. It was no longer an issue of ones heritage (v.31) or works (v.28), but was all of God’s sovereign will.
_____________________________
"Men think all things would be very glorious, if they might be done according to their mind. Perhaps, indeed, they would -- but with their glory, not the glory of God." - John Owen
monergism
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/6/2008 5:20:00 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justajerk
Notice that Jesus reference’s back to the very start of the discourse where in v.27 He calls Himself “the Son of Man”, and in v.29 that He was “sent” from God.
This may not effect your point, but I have been meaning address what may be a misuse of the Scriptures for some time. This envolves the term "the son of the man", which was used by Adonai in speaking to the prophets most notably Yechezk'el(Ezekiel).
EZE 3:17 "Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me."
This Scripture has over time lead to the term refering to a prophet or one who stands in the gap between Adonai and mankind. Now this definitely has messianic implication, but, I don't believe, it is best evidence for equality with Adonai. Therefore, unless we are talking about Yeshua's(Jesus') credentials as a prophet, the term appears to be a bit out of context.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: John 6:66 - 6/7/2008 12:32:48 AM
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justajerk
Posts: 129
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: justajerk
Notice that Jesus reference’s back to the very start of the discourse where in v.27 He calls Himself “the Son of Man”, and in v.29 that He was “sent” from God.
This may not effect your point, but I have been meaning address what may be a misuse of the Scriptures for some time. This envolves the term "the son of the man", which was used by Adonai in speaking to the prophets most notably Yechezk'el(Ezekiel).
EZE 3:17 "Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me."
This Scripture has over time lead to the term refering to a prophet or one who stands in the gap between Adonai and mankind. Now this definitely has messianic implication, but, I don't believe, it is best evidence for equality with Adonai. Therefore, unless we are talking about Yeshua's(Jesus') credentials as a prophet, the term appears to be a bit out of context.
Hmmm... Yes, I don't think this does alter the view I have proposed. An interesting point nonetheless.
Something more to look into, thankyou.
_____________________________
"Men think all things would be very glorious, if they might be done according to their mind. Perhaps, indeed, they would -- but with their glory, not the glory of God." - John Owen
monergism
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