RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation?

RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation?

WAY too much extra stuff...let's get back to basics.

48% (34)

Just about the right amount...sounds pretty good to me!

44% (31)

Not enough instruments...CRANK that orchestra!

7% (5)

Total Votes : 70

(last vote on : 7/18/2008 12:09:00 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

danielmount -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (6/30/2008 5:36:13 PM)
Sometimes I wonder if people who say EHSS uses only over-amped soundtracks have seen the group recently: http://www.southerngospelblog.com/archives/905

Dagwat -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (6/30/2008 10:32:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: augustaranger I'm a purist. Just a well played piano will do just fine. Five clean shaven men in matching suits without spiked hair... Hey, that describes my personal preference as well. To me it is all about the message, not the music. Around where I live, the big concert promoter loves to keep things as loud as possible, except the people singing. He lets his young son run the sound for the singing and it's unbearable. A couple years ago was the last time I went to one of his promotions. Dottie Rambo asked THREE times for her tracks to be turned down and was ignored all three times. Michael Booth also made mention on stage that it was sure loud in there. Legacy Five done their entire segment accapella which under the circumstances was the best segment of all. You could actually hear them sing. I love good instrumentation in it's place, but when it is done so in an overbearing fashion, it drowns out the message that is trying to be presented by those ministers of Christ through Southern Gospel music. Especially the fast paced stuff, where the message is more easily lost by the music anyway. Nothing wrong with fast paced mind you, if the message is made clear. Not only in concerts ( I prefer the words "Gospel Singing"), but also on many recordings now days. Those mixing the sound put great emphasis on the music and in some cases, you can't hardly hear the vocals. What's the use listening to Southern Gospel if all you hear is music? You can get that on secular radio stations. Along with someone screaming into a microphone and calling it "singing" but that's beside my point. I PREFER a piano only, but also like good instrumentation. Some quite awesome beautiful music can be played on orchestra instruments. Especially when they are used for Gospel music instead of secular. Really brings out the beauty of those instruments. Just turn it down and let the message be conveyed without being drowned out by the "acompaniment" which is what the music is supposed to be anyway..... not the main attraction. What I really hate in instrumentation are the "instruments" that you can't play a tune on. SUCH AS DRUMS. It's just a beat, noise, distortion..... in my opinion it requires no talent, just a couple sticks to bang with. I also realize I am VERY MUCH in the minority on this one, as about everyone else loves the stupid banging things, so I'll shut up now.

Dagwat -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (6/30/2008 10:58:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: yustme Most of these posts are the reason why I won't walk across the street to hear Signature Sound and a few other groups.I heard Earnie Haase yrs ago with the Cathedrals and I thought he was great then.I'm very dissapointed in him now. I whole heartedly agree! When Signature Sound first started, I was so amazed. Their sound was awesome, their talent, raw and natural was incredible! Then a funny thing happened.....their bus must have overturned with an open bottle of bleach on board, and their combs were lost in the accident too. It must have affected their ability to stand still. LOL. I feel it is a shame for such a group of extremely talented and gifted singers to sell out to a pop culture, and delusion that they are reaching people for Christ with a worldly appearance and wordly actions. Immitating the world does not reach people for Christ..... IN MY OPINION. Jesus told us we are IN the world, but we not OF it. We are to be a peculiar people. DIFFERENT from the world, not trying to walk a line in between. And I also whole heartedly agree that their fakeness lip sinc tracks while hopping around on stage like they need to go to the bathroom. It is just too fake for me. All that being said, I have nothing against these guys, I just feel they bought in to a delusion. I would LOVE to see Signature Sound get back to the way they started out being. I think God could use them so much more powerfully, and the incredible gifts He has blessed them with. There is not a more gifted tenor singer than Ernie Haase, a more gifted Bass singer than Tim Duncan, and Doug Anderson could bless my socks off with his perfect baritone voice, but when it stopped being real and the other things began, it just ruined it for me. I wouldn't go see them in concert if they were paying ME to attend.

Dagwat -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (6/30/2008 11:18:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TQ_Fan_4_Life I will dixiebass because I will most likely have to have tracks until I get going fully but I prefer a live band to tracks any day of the week. the best live album ever made SG wise is Come FLy With The McGruders in my humble opinion, and to do what they did on that album, tracks can never do Oh yeah! That's a good one TQ! I agree. I love the Magruders and that profect was awesome and VERY real. Very ANNOINTED and I think that is the main reason why tracks and stacks, really lacks. (couldn't resist the word play). I have no problem with someone using tracks if they have to, whether it be getting started, or in Legacy Five's case when Roger was so ill and they HAD to rely on tracks on sing all accapella. But I think the general consensus on this tread is great. Too much instrumentation and too overpowering. Need to get back to all live performances. When it has to be done otherwise, God can use that, but it has to be God or it's just not there. Also let me point out something. I have never read this thread before, so I wasn't here when it was started to keep up with it. Thus in finding myself wanting to reply to some of your comments, I'm seeing ME a lot at the bottom with several posts all together. Sorry for that, just have to weigh in on some of your great comments.

Dagwat -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (6/30/2008 11:30:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TQ_Fan_4_Life hmmmm. what about a group that main instrument is NOT a piano? and still be SG Certainly! Look at the Chuck Wagon Gang.... They've been out there for a long long time with a guitar and vocals only. The contribution they've made to Southern Gospel is ennormous. In fact, I think they were before pianos were invented. HA! We wouldn't have ever heard the song "I'll Fly Away" if it wasn't for these great pioneers of Southern Gospel. But typically, a piano adds something that no other instrument offers. At least to me it does. Especially in the hands of a Roger Bennett, Anthony Berger and so on. The talent God has given to some of these fellows just makes a piano the most beautiful instrument and probably the most "all purpose" instrument there is.

TQ_Fan_4_Life -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (7/1/2008 7:48:32 AM)
a piano is great and will have a piano player in my group, but i prefer a more different approach. definately will be some different music yet all SG(((with some PW and CCM added in))) now as for EHSS, I have did some praying over them and my thoughts. if they feel that is the way God has led them to go ministry wise, I am not going to judge their music and ministry. because i am taking my group to the edges. i wont go one way or the other and not argueing pro or con, but people say we need to reach the world yet all they want to be is cocooned in a lil corner. Christi((Zman38)) spoke a few months back of going to see Tobymac((one of Gospel music's most gifted people))) and the altars were full of unsaved and most likely saved young people. something in the hundreds. how often do we see that at a strictly SG concert? people are most times from what I have seen too busy talking and waiting to get to the product table. if we are going to save the teenagers, and without them in a few years SG will likely die out because the old folks will be passed on(((fans not singers))). might have strayed from thread topic but coming back. if a lil extra instrumentation and Heaven forbid some groups add some flavor and style to their concerts and albums, maybe you might see more teenagers coming to the concerts and loving the music. think am kidding, check how many are teens in the music board and then check here in SG. talk about an eye opener.

danielmount -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (7/1/2008 10:54:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TQ_Fan_4_Life how often do we see that at a strictly SG concert? It happens - I've seen it. You just have to be going to the right concerts. :)

TQ_Fan_4_Life -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (7/1/2008 9:19:16 PM)
I don't know Daniel. usually who is at SG concerts are already "professed 'Christians'"

1970rodney -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (7/1/2008 9:30:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nmyrtlebeach If a group is going to use sound tracks and stacks, why even bother to sing ? Just fake the whole show. Maybe I could start a Bluegrass Band and just use tracks for the music. LOL Did you ever stop to consider that maybe it makes more sense finacially to sing with tracks than to have to pay a live band. Or that maybe they sing with stacked tracks to have a more full sound so they don't have to push as hard. Hey believe me it's not as easy as you're making it out to be to sing with tracks and stacked backgrounds but sometimes it makes more sense on the money side of things folks.

TQ_Fan_4_Life -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (7/1/2008 9:32:36 PM)
or rodney do like me and try to have a group where you sing, you play

1970rodney -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (7/1/2008 9:39:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TQ_Fan_4_Life or rodney do like me and try to have a group where you sing, you play No doubt about it that would be very hard to do. Wouldn't be able to know what that feels like man. So kudos to you. All I'm saying is before one says something about a group one might need to know a teeny little bit about their situation first. I've heard live bands, I've heard no bands, and I've heard tracks. Loved 'em all [;)]

TQ_Fan_4_Life -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (7/1/2008 9:43:43 PM)
i prefer live band over any. because you can move with God's power not try to find the part of the track where you feel God's power((( like singing lines over and over. by putting that into tracks, you are (((IMHO)) trying to say you know when God is going to move. for updates on how my group is going, check out Group Update: Spiritual Warfare thread.

utilityfielder -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (7/1/2008 9:44:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 1970rodney quote: ORIGINAL: nmyrtlebeach If a group is going to use sound tracks and stacks, why even bother to sing ? Just fake the whole show. Maybe I could start a Bluegrass Band and just use tracks for the music. LOL Did you ever stop to consider that maybe it makes more sense finacially to sing with tracks than to have to pay a live band. Or that maybe they sing with stacked tracks to have a more full sound so they don't have to push as hard. Hey believe me it's not as easy as you're making it out to be to sing with tracks and stacked backgrounds but sometimes it makes more sense on the money side of things folks. I am going to jump in here because I have been doing some thinking about this. I attended my first SG concert last Saturday in S-ville. And tracks were used and that did bother me because I really like live music. And I know that economics are the biggest reason why live bands are not used. But the thing that struck me was the cost of the concert. There were three national known groups and one regional group and the cost for the whole show was $19.00. That is dirt cheap folks. In contrast, tickets for the Bruce Springsteen concert in KC are going to be $29, $55, and $89. And you can be assured that the $29 tickets are in the upper balcony of an arena that hold 15,000. My point is that SG groups are caught in a dilemma. Because tickets are so cheap that cannot afford to travel with a band. But if they raised the ticket costs to afford a band, how would that affect the attendance?

1970rodney -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (7/1/2008 9:52:08 PM)
But I thought, and I'm most likely dead wrong here, the Promoters set the ticket prices. You're right about what is charged tho. It cost me more to see Third Day or Mercyme than Lordsong or Brian Free.

utilityfielder -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (7/1/2008 9:57:35 PM)
I think the groups tell the promoters what they want and the promoter figures that into his costs.

BBfan -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (7/1/2008 11:00:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GospelProducer Typically we will record all the music tracks live at least the basic music tracks. For instance we would usually lay down the piano, bass, drums, acoustic guitar. We would then go back and lay in such instruments as violin, banjo, horns etc. Usually the next day we start recording vocals. Since we usually use only Nashville session musicians, it's rare that we can't get all the music tracks laid down in one day. I would love to sit in on one of those sessions and listen. [:D]

GospelProducer -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (7/2/2008 12:26:06 AM)
They are a blast BBfan. I really love what I do. I have a full CD session on 7/21 and have some of th ebest musicians in Nashville booked for it. For instance the keyboard player has played for everyone from Alan Jackson to Elvis. We will lay down all the music tracks that day with a "scratch" vocal. The artist will take a cd home with the music on it and practice the songs until she has them down, then we will book another day or two to lay down the vocal tracks. After those are completed I will spend one or two days in the studio mixing all of it with the engineer.

pauljackson -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (7/2/2008 1:22:28 AM)
We have yet to sing for an audience with "just" Trax. We have used trax, but always with our piano player performing LIVE with them. We also love to sing with "just" Eddie Crook plunking out is very original piano stylings. Both approaches have their place. *I think balance* is the key. Balance between the old and the new...in style...and in song selection. We have found that people want the old songs to be honored...as in "not forgotten"..."preseved"...many want the old style preserved as well. But a surprising number of even older fans really seem to enjoy fresh songs and sounds. Trax can help with that. The balanced model of The Cathedrals and The Speers**, from the 80's-90's seems to work perfectly today.

iluvatar -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (7/2/2008 2:17:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Quartet_Fan2008 I have a question for y'all . . . say your GOAL is to have a FULL BAND playing behind you on stage, but you're limited by finances which only allow you to hire a piano player. Would you use tracks to fill in the bass and drums (maybe the ocassional fiddle or banjo) until you can afford to have a bass player and drummer come on board? I'm anxious to hear your opinions![:D] I don't perform (or even listen to) gospel music, but I gotta say, if I saw half a band (of any genre) playing along with canned drums, I'd probably get up and leave. It's not uncommon for keyboard players to cover the bass part with their left hand and organ players often utilize very percussive styles. I believe that with the right piano player, you could get close enough to what you wanted w/o having to resort to a couple canned parts. quote: ORIGINAL: robertyork All the orchestration and sympathies that some of the groups is certainly what drives the cost of production of a cd higher. With the higher cost of producing a cd the less profit there is in the cd. The less profit in a cd the higher flat that the group has to charge to cover their expenses. A piano, bass, durms and maybe another instrument should be find. They could stack the music like they stack vocals. JMO. Just My Opinion. How many of these symphonic backing tracks are cut w/ real musicians and how many are sequenced? quote: hey guys, thats why I love the group Acappella. they only those 4 men doing all music and vocals, with their mouths. you better know how to sing or people will know immediately. I wish I liked that genre of music, because it seems to be full of REALLY talented groups and I really respect what they do. It's just that after about 3 songs, it does not appeal to me at all. quote: SUCH AS DRUMS. It's just a beat, noise, distortion..... in my opinion it requires no talent, just a couple sticks to bang with. I also realize I am VERY MUCH in the minority on this one To put it bluntly, you're in the minority because you're wrong. Maybe SG doesn't require percussion as much as other genres, but for genres that do need a drummer, a good one is worth his weight in gold. Us recording guys spend a lot of time and energy trying to get drums to sound right - often fighting room acoustics, gear, talent (or lack thereof), etc to get something useable. It was an eye-opening experience for me to be a part of a session recently w/ a legitimate a-list drummer. All this time I've spent trying to figure out how the pros get their drum recordings to sound good... He answered my questions within 5 minutes of walking in the door - just by sitting down and playing. quote: In contrast, tickets for the Bruce Springsteen concert in KC are going to be $29, $55, and $89. And you can be assured that the $29 tickets are in the upper balcony of an arena that hold 15,000. That's it? I would have guessed at least 50% higher. I recently paid ~$50 (after fees) for lawn seats to see Iron Maiden whom I would have expected to be outpriced by The Boss by a considerable margin. -Dan.

GospelProducer -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (7/2/2008 11:30:45 AM)
It's tooooo funny that someone says it requires no talent to be a drummer. I know some of the best musicians in Nashville that can play anything with strings, keys or buttons on it but sit them down at a set of drums and we all fall over laughing. It looks a lot like a drunken spider, just watching them try to get their feet and hands all moving at different beats. Like iluvatar said, when recording we usually spend more time making sure the drum tracks are just right because they are the foundation for the entire recording.

dbmurray -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (7/2/2008 11:38:42 PM)
When you have an audience that perceives talent as "just noise," you have to wonder if it's even worth it to try to entertain them with the best quality you're able to offer. Sing off pitch in a whiny tone, and they'll throw babies in the air because they think you're being "sincere" and "moved." Sad, but true...

singLOUD -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (7/3/2008 1:26:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dbmurray Sing off pitch in a whiny tone, .... Thanks for the suggestion, Dave. [:D] zzzzzzzzzzzzz

bigboytenor -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (7/3/2008 2:27:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TQ_Fan_4_Life can dislike them all want, but have seen Jason Crabb sing and can tell he is singing. as with all Crabb Family. they sweating, faces blood red, they singing with all they can to the Lord I tried to let this one go TQ_Fan, but I just couldn't. This really doesn't have as much to do with singing with all they can as it does singing with poor technique that will ruin a voice well before is should be used up by age. If the face is red, veins are popping out and the tongue is hanging out of the mouth it's bad technique, period.

bigboytenor -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (7/3/2008 2:37:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GospelProducer It's tooooo funny that someone says it requires no talent to be a drummer. I know some of the best musicians in Nashville that can play anything with strings, keys or buttons on it but sit them down at a set of drums and we all fall over laughing. It looks a lot like a drunken spider, just watching them try to get their feet and hands all moving at different beats. Like iluvatar said, when recording we usually spend more time making sure the drum tracks are just right because they are the foundation for the entire recording. Well said GospelProducer. There is way ore to playing a drumset than most people understand. It requires a lot of coordination and a sense of rhythm and timing that many people don't possess. Those who say it's "just two sticks and banging around" etc. are speaking from utter and complete ignorance. I love how people continually speak of that which they don't understand.

Seaton -> RE: Are SG Groups using too much extra instrumentation? (7/3/2008 7:05:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dbmurray When you have an audience that perceives talent as "just noise," you have to wonder if it's even worth it to try to entertain them with the best quality you're able to offer. Sing off pitch in a whiny tone, and they'll throw babies in the air because they think you're being "sincere" and "moved." Sad, but true... I agree, sad but true.

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