RE: Christians and military

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SovereignIsHe -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 6:53:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: follower333 I can say the same thing to you, too. It is obvious we are not in agreement about "love your enemy" teaching. It is Jesus who judges who is out of line with God. In the meantime, I will keep on defending my conviction for the Lord. The Lord has had men put to death by the other men... No debate... It's a matter of just cause... If not, you must call Joshua a murderer to be consistent... John

follower333 -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 7:30:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: follower333 I can say the same thing to you, too. It is obvious we are not in agreement about "love your enemy" teaching. It is Jesus who judges who is out of line with God. In the meantime, I will keep on defending my conviction for the Lord. The Lord has had men put to death by the other men... No debate... It's a matter of just cause... If not, you must call Joshua a murderer to be consistent... John Joshua followed God's order, he did not make decision to attack the enemy.

stephanos -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 7:37:35 PM)
Seeing as no one responded to this point. I want to ask it again. Acts 10 deals with Cornelius. Cornelius was a Roman Centurian. He also was the first non-Jewish (aka Gentile) Christian. If it was a sin or immoral or wrong for Christians to be in the military, then this would have been the BEST possible place for God to tell us this. If being both a solder for Rome (aka the government) was incompatible with being a Christian, then Peter would have TOLD Cornelius this.

follower333 -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 7:45:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephanos Seeing as no one responded to this point. I want to ask it again. Acts 10 deals with Cornelius. Cornelius was a Roman Centurian. He also was the first non-Jewish (aka Gentile) Christian. If it was a sin or immoral or wrong for Christians to be in the military, then this would have been the BEST possible place for God to tell us this. If being both a solder for Rome (aka the government) was incompatible with being a Christian, then Peter would have TOLD Cornelius this. The Bible does not call all sins as sins. Many Christians have good deeds as well as sins. Prostitution is a sin but the bible does not mention about it. There are many examples like this. Beside, he may already enlisted before he became Christian. If you become christian after you enlist, you cannot do anything about it, you have to finish your oath.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 7:48:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: follower333 quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: follower333 I can say the same thing to you, too. It is obvious we are not in agreement about "love your enemy" teaching. It is Jesus who judges who is out of line with God. In the meantime, I will keep on defending my conviction for the Lord. The Lord has had men put to death by the other men... No debate... It's a matter of just cause... If not, you must call Joshua a murderer to be consistent... John Joshua followed God's order, he did not make decision to attack the enemy. Those who justly put people to death for their crime(s) act in the same manner as Joshua... God, not man says that for murder one should be made to give up their life... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 7:58:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: follower333 The Bible does not call all sins as sins. Many Christians have good deeds as well as sins. Prostitution is a sin but the bible does not mention about it. There are many examples like this. Er.... The term "harlot" is in the bible many times... In fact Rahab who helped spies of Joshua was one... John

Qtman -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 8:07:53 PM)
This is the Oath of Enlistment that has been used in the U.S. since 1960. Can someone explain what is wrong with it. "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 8:15:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephanos Seeing as no one responded to this point. I want to ask it again. Acts 10 deals with Cornelius. Cornelius was a Roman Centurian. He also was the first non-Jewish (aka Gentile) Christian. If it was a sin or immoral or wrong for Christians to be in the military, then this would have been the BEST possible place for God to tell us this. If being both a solder for Rome (aka the government) was incompatible with being a Christian, then Peter would have TOLD Cornelius this. Roman soldiers worked in the Coliseum as well they were notorious for pillage and raping those they defeated…It was encouraged to keep up morale... Btw... It wasn't only woman they raped... Why would a Christian wish to swear an oath to such an organization? John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 8:17:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Qtman This is the Oath of Enlistment that has been used in the U.S. since 1960. Can someone explain what is wrong with it. "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962). Where is Christ mentioned as the King of the United States and His law is held as the supreme law above all others? John

Qtman -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 8:20:33 PM)
John I have never said the oath said Jesus was the King of the United States. I simply do not see anything inherently wrong with the oath of enlistment. You are simply pledgeing t support and defend the Constitution of the United states.

Qtman -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 8:22:24 PM)
I think I had just better leave this thread. John you and I have gone head to head before and both of us ended up running all over the forums appoligizing to each other. I don't want this to degenerate to that level again so I will just leave. God Bess You All.

utilityfielder -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 8:26:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: follower333 quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: follower333 quote: ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_ So everyone in the military kills? The military's whole purpose is to destroy their enemy's country. All military is cooperating to do so. Let's me honest here. That's ignorant twaddle. Have you even reached the age to shave???? My separated husband is retired military. You cannot fool me with your evasive and insulting comments. I know very well about the military. I remember you. Didn't you post under a different name about 18 months ago and wasn't this your topic then?

Fritzpw_Admin -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 8:28:04 PM)
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Fritzpw_Admin -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 8:28:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: utilityfielder quote: ORIGINAL: follower333 quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: follower333 quote: ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_ So everyone in the military kills? The military's whole purpose is to destroy their enemy's country. All military is cooperating to do so. Let's me honest here. That's ignorant twaddle. Have you even reached the age to shave???? My separated husband is retired military. You cannot fool me with your evasive and insulting comments. I know very well about the military. I remember you. Didn't you post under a different name about 18 months ago and wasn't this your topic then? This is off-topic. If you want to make off-topic inquires please use the PM feature.

follower333 -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 8:40:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: follower333 quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: follower333 I can say the same thing to you, too. It is obvious we are not in agreement about "love your enemy" teaching. It is Jesus who judges who is out of line with God. In the meantime, I will keep on defending my conviction for the Lord. The Lord has had men put to death by the other men... No debate... It's a matter of just cause... If not, you must call Joshua a murderer to be consistent... John Joshua followed God's order, he did not make decision to attack the enemy. Those who justly put people to death for their crime(s) act in the same manner as Joshua... God, not man says that for murder one should be made to give up their life... John quote: Er.... The term "harlot" is in the bible many times... In fact Rahab who helped spies of Joshua was one... John The Bible does not clarify all the people's actions.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 8:43:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Qtman John I have never said the oath said Jesus was the King of the United States. Never in quesiton since the country doesn't uphold Christ as King... That's the issue in my book... quote: I simply do not see anything inherently wrong with the oath of enlistment. You are simply pledgeing t support and defend the Constitution of the United states. Yes, and to a country that is pluralistic in regards to God... One isn't supposed to marry unequally yoked, why would one wish to make a covenant with an entity for the same reason? The United States act in its own best interest not God’s… John

follower333 -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 8:44:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: follower333 quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: follower333 I can say the same thing to you, too. It is obvious we are not in agreement about "love your enemy" teaching. It is Jesus who judges who is out of line with God. In the meantime, I will keep on defending my conviction for the Lord. The Lord has had men put to death by the other men... No debate... It's a matter of just cause... If not, you must call Joshua a murderer to be consistent... John Joshua followed God's order, he did not make decision to attack the enemy. Those who justly put people to death for their crime(s) act in the same manner as Joshua... God, not man says that for murder one should be made to give up their life... John Please give me the verse, so I can clarify.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 8:45:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: follower333 The Bible does not clarify all the people's actions. It's pretty clear on what a "harlot" does for a living... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 8:53:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: follower333 quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: follower333 quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: follower333 I can say the same thing to you, too. It is obvious we are not in agreement about "love your enemy" teaching. It is Jesus who judges who is out of line with God. In the meantime, I will keep on defending my conviction for the Lord. The Lord has had men put to death by the other men... No debate... It's a matter of just cause... If not, you must call Joshua a murderer to be consistent... John Joshua followed God's order, he did not make decision to attack the enemy. Those who justly put people to death for their crime(s) act in the same manner as Joshua... God, not man says that for murder one should be made to give up their life... John Please give me the verse, so I can clarify. It's more like verses.... Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. Exodus 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death. Numbers 35:16 And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. Numbers 35:31 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death. Luke 23:41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong. John Acts 25:11 If, however, I am guilty of doing anything deserving death, I do not refuse to die.

stephanos -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 8:58:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: Stephanos Seeing as no one responded to this point. I want to ask it again. Acts 10 deals with Cornelius. Cornelius was a Roman Centurian. He also was the first non-Jewish (aka Gentile) Christian. If it was a sin or immoral or wrong for Christians to be in the military, then this would have been the BEST possible place for God to tell us this. If being both a solder for Rome (aka the government) was incompatible with being a Christian, then Peter would have TOLD Cornelius this. Roman soldiers worked in the Coliseum as well they were notorious for pillage and raping those they defeated…It was encouraged to keep up morale... Btw... It wasn't only woman they raped... Why would a Christian wish to swear an oath to such an organization? John Fact: Cornelius was called a "God-Fearer". He was respected in the Jewish community. Furthermore, the objection to Cornelius as recorded in the bible was not because he was a solder, but because he was a Gentile. Fact: The bible does not record ANY condemnation against ANY solder simply because they were a solder. Need I remind anyone about the other Centurion mentioned in the bible? You know the one who talked to Jesus and had such strong faith. Again, Jesus Himself did not condemn the Centurion because of his career.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 9:08:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephanos quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: Stephanos Seeing as no one responded to this point. I want to ask it again. Acts 10 deals with Cornelius. Cornelius was a Roman Centurian. He also was the first non-Jewish (aka Gentile) Christian. If it was a sin or immoral or wrong for Christians to be in the military, then this would have been the BEST possible place for God to tell us this. If being both a solder for Rome (aka the government) was incompatible with being a Christian, then Peter would have TOLD Cornelius this. Roman soldiers worked in the Coliseum as well they were notorious for pillage and raping those they defeated…It was encouraged to keep up morale... Btw... It wasn't only woman they raped... Why would a Christian wish to swear an oath to such an organization? John Fact: Cornelius was called a "God-Fearer". He was respected in the Jewish community. Furthermore, the objection to Cornelius as recorded in the bible was not because he was a solder, but because he was a Gentile. Fact: The bible does not record ANY condemnation against ANY solder simply because they were a solder. Need I remind anyone about the other Centurion mentioned in the bible? You know the one who talked to Jesus and had such strong faith. Again, Jesus Himself did not condemn the Centurion because of his career. Doesn't change the "fact" of what was common place in the Roman army... Coming from the group is not the same as joining with forethought and knowledge... For the record my posting of historical facts regarding the Roman army isn't a denial of Cornelius' devotion to God, nor the that the Centurion was said to have a greater faith not found in all of Israel... John

Doc65 -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 9:31:41 PM)
quote: True, but there can be an issue depending on the use of the sword... For instance Peter's... Now wait a second, what do you think a sword is used for? Spreading peanut butter?! I'm being sarcastic but I found that an odd statement... And follower333: quote: The military's whole purpose is to destroy their enemy's country. All military is cooperating to do so. Let's me honest here. The purpose is not to destroy their enemy's country, it is to render the enemy so it cannot pose harm or a threat to one's own nation. And your continual comments about not judging others are disingenuous as your are consistently judging others here, questioning their faith in Christ and disparaging honorable men... Prov. 17:11 - "An evil man is bent only on rebellion; a merciless official will be sent against him." Prov. 18:6-7 - "A fool's lips bring him strife, and his mouth invites a beating. A fool's mouth is his undoing, and his lips are a snare to his soul." Eccl. 3:1-3 - "There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot, a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build" You may want to peruse Luther's "Whether Soldiers Too Can Be Saved" if you are looking for biblical bases by which soldiers may be Christians (whichj you are doubting and disparaging...). Additionally, rather than constantly spout the same drivel about the military killing, why don't you think about those who have been saved, either physically or spiritually, by a soldier's actions or witness (unless, of course, this goes against what appears to be an unyielding, pseudo-dogmatic position...) And, yes, before you jump to the conclusion that I'm a military supporter, I'll jump for ya - 12 years Army in various positions as a medic, unit clerk, armorer and PSNCO. And let me tell you one other thing, the last thing a soldier wants to do is to kill or injure another, they are the one's who bear the brunt, pain and fear of war...I may be out of line here, but it sounds like maybe your views were tainted by your separated spouse and your circular logic defies any sort of discussion in the process and smacks of simple knee-jerk reactionism to something (what I'm not sure). So, that being said, I'll pray that you remove the log that protrudes so heavily from your eye and that you, in all your proclamation of Christ's love, may also show the mercy and love of Christ that you have been given to those who make it possible for you to worship in the manner you choose... One last note, go to any seminary and see what response you get - I can guarantee you that there is a very, very, very large number of former military personnel following the Word of God as they train to proclaim His forgiveness in this broken world... [>:]

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 9:44:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Doc65 quote: True, but there can be an issue depending on the use of the sword... For instance Peter's... Now wait a second, what do you think a sword is used for? Spreading peanut butter?! I'm being sarcastic but I found that an odd statement... Are you agruing that however the sword is used it's for good? John

Doc65 -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 9:55:26 PM)
The sword is an object and it's man that makes it good or evil. In Peter's hands I would venture to say that it wasn't for good, especially in light of Christ's rebuke after he performed hurried plastic surgery on the servant... However, the sword, when wielded by a soldier, police officer or even the average Joe in defense of another, performs an act on behalf of his neighbor (see Luther's "Temporal Authority"). Both of the writings by Luther which I noted have an extensive amount of Scriptural citations as support and, accordingly, refute the OP's position...unfortunately, I can't find the silly things in the sedimentation which makes up my office... And actually, when I first read your posting which I quoted, the idea that a sword might be used for something other than defense or offense (thus the peanut butter comment) seemed funny - must be time for another pain pill...[&:]

fiat_lux -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 10:09:42 PM)
quote: However, the sword, when wielded by a soldier, police officer or even the average Joe in defense of another, performs an act on behalf of his neighbor (see Luther's "Temporal Authority"). No, the officer and the soldier perform an act on behalf of the state. This may benefit his neighbor as well, but I doubt we can generalize so broadly. I can think of plenty of states where this is not really always true. It's undeniable that Jesus had opportunities to tell soldiers to leave the army if that was really something he wanted to do. And he didn't tell them to do that. However, silence isn't an indication of what positive action we should or shouldn't take today. Personally, I couldn't swear an oath to any entity that didn't work to honour and glorify God, and that includes my government. It would be wrong for me to swear an oath that might one day bind me to do something that goes against my faith. The book of Judges has some examples of some well-intentioned oaths gone badly wrong.

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