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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 10:34:34 PM
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follower333
Posts: 59
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I ask all of you to show me where you find Jesus or His disciples killed anyone for self defense; you cannot. Jesus' messages are very clear. He does not allow His people to harm anyone much less kill even for self defense. They had plenty of chances to kill because they were surrounded by many enemies who were trying to kill them; they got killed instead of killing their enemy.
Jesus came down on earth to show us good examples, why not follow Him?
< Message edited by follower333 -- 5/29/2008 10:44:33 PM >
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 11:59:29 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doc65
The sword is an object and it's man that makes it good or evil.
In Peter's hands I would venture to say that it wasn't for good, especially in light of Christ's rebuke after he performed hurried plastic surgery on the servant...
However, the sword, when wielded by a soldier, police officer or even the average Joe in defense of another, performs an act on behalf of his neighbor
That was my point... The use is everything...
True, but there can be an issue depending on the use of the sword... For instance Peter's...
John
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 12:07:07 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
I ask all of you to show me where you find Jesus or His disciples killed anyone for self defense; you cannot. Jesus' messages are very clear. He does not allow His people to harm anyone much less kill even for self defense. They had plenty of chances to kill because they were surrounded by many enemies who were trying to kill them; they got killed instead of killing their enemy.
Jesus came down on earth to show us good examples, why not follow Him?
Moses was His people...
Exodus 32:26-28 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the Lord's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
Joshua was His people... David was His people... A man after His very own heart...
John
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 1:32:16 AM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6954
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
follower333- do you live in America?
Yes, I do, since '73.
Do you like living here?
I live for the Lord and I am happy wherever He puts me.
So you don't mind reaping the benefits of what our military has done for you?
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 2:25:49 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1697
Joined: 4/8/2005
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quote:
If you think am troll, you don't have to participate in this thread. I am here to defend Jesus' command of "love your enemy".
I won't continue in this thread because it seems, despite your OP's claim to not want divisiveness, your intent here is stir the nest.
What do oyu know about loving your enemy? OUr enemy is not always another nation or religion. We live among "enemies" each and every day. How do you treat the person down the street who has offended and angered you? How do you treat the criminal who has finally been arrested after breaking into your house and many other homes in your community?
As I said in anearlier post. I am a police officer. I carry a gun to work and am trained to use that gun to defend the life of others if need be. BUt the best weapon in my arsenal is my ability to communicate. To use both eyes and both ears to listen to the verbal and non verbal language of someone and the tongue to talk someone down from an emotionally charged state of mind.
Prior to becoming a cop, I worked 16 years in corrections, both behind the walls and in the community as a probation officer. Not only did Icome face to face with the worst of the worst, it was my duty to engage them in trying to change thinking to change behavior. I feel like I have learned, first hand, what turning the other cheek means. What walking the extra mile means and giving the shirt off my back. And now, if called to your house because someone was intent on harming you, I would respond to your house and do what was necessary to protect you and your family from harm. But, from your perspective, I'm not worthy to share eterenity with you because I've sworn an oath to protect and defend and because I've been trained to take life if necessary. What are you going to say to God when you get there and see me and other "soldiers" there?
quote:
BTW, I don't have hatred. the military is the one who are showing hatred by killing their enemy, not me. I don't support any killing.
I said to you that your words have the same power as bullets. You said it was a silly argument. What your words are conveying is a sense of hatred. It may not be your intention. But, it's being percieved. Communication, like warfare, is a two way street. If your message is not having the intended effect, is that the fault of the reciever?
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 7:43:15 AM
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follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
I ask all of you to show me where you find Jesus or His disciples killed anyone for self defense; you cannot. Jesus' messages are very clear. He does not allow His people to harm anyone much less kill even for self defense. They had plenty of chances to kill because they were surrounded by many enemies who were trying to kill them; they got killed instead of killing their enemy.
Jesus came down on earth to show us good examples, why not follow Him?
Moses was His people...
Exodus 32:26-28 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the Lord's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
Joshua was His people... David was His people... A man after His very own heart...
John
Jesus teaches us to be how to be desciples for evangelizm in the New Testament. God's people did not have responsibility to evangelize for Jesus. They had different responsibilities for God in OT times. Show me where you can find any desciples killed anyone for self defense in the New Testament. His Father also says to us to listen to Jesus.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 7:49:13 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
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This reminds me of a debate I once had with a Jehovah Witness. OP are you a Jehovah Witness?
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 7:56:56 AM
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follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
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quote:
So you don't mind reaping the benefits of what our military has done for you?
Everything I am getting is from God. God provides. He gives everything what I need. Please don't be arrogant saying you are getting everything on your own. Please don't forget that satan has power too. If our mentality is not right, we may be getting ungodly things from satan. Satan used bribes; No everything is from God just because you have material blessing. Jesus says it is hard for rich man to inherit kingdom of God. Jesus loves meek and oppressed country and people.
God wants me here so I stay where He put me. He made me believer when I was here. It is obvious He wants me here. Do you see God's logic?
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 7:58:34 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
Sovereign,
Whether you kill anyone or not if you are enlisted, you are carrying the same guilt as all military people who are killing. You can not conveniently say that you are not one of them, my dear.
God's word clearly teaches that each person is judged for their own sin and nobody else.
I am only defending Jesus' teaching as His servant. His followers have responsibilties to spread His messages. "Love your enemy" have been ignored by most churches. And this is my conviction. I have right to spread my conviction for the Lord, If I don't, I will be in trouble with Him.
Let's get back to the topic instead of personal attacks.
thank you.
That was not a personal attack. In direct contrast to the word of God, you claim to be God's messenger that if one is a member of an organization where one or more of its other members murder someone, then all members are guilty of that sin. I challenge you to prove such an assertion with God's written word, not just your "conviction" - which is nothing more than a personal opinion, not an edict of God. By your logic, if you are a citizen of a country and another citizen murders an innocent child, you are as guilty as any other citizen. Guilt by association is not a message of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 8:05:15 AM
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follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
This reminds me of a debate I once had with a Jehovah Witness. OP are you a Jehovah Witness?
I already told you that I am not Jehovah's Witness. I don't belong to any organization because if I belong to them, you have to follow everything what your leaders tells you to do. My Boss is Jesus, not organization leaders. I have the Bible and Jesus' Holy Spirit.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 8:09:19 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
This reminds me of a debate I once had with a Jehovah Witness. OP are you a Jehovah Witness?
I already told you that I am not Jehovah's Witness. I don't belong to any organization because if I belong to them, you have to follow everything what your leaders tells you to do. My Boss is Jesus, not organization leaders. I have the Bible and Jesus' Holy Spirit.
Another admonition of the Lord is to NOT forsake assembling with other believers and for the young in Christ to learn from elders. The NT establishes leaders within Jesus' Church. To reject them is to reject Him.
Jesus does not give instruction that contradicts God's written Word. Such contradiction ALWAYS comes from somewhere else. Always.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 8:25:35 AM
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follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
Sovereign,
Whether you kill anyone or not if you are enlisted, you are carrying the same guilt as all military people who are killing. You can not conveniently say that you are not one of them, my dear.
God's word clearly teaches that each person is judged for their own sin and nobody else.
I am only defending Jesus' teaching as His servant. His followers have responsibilties to spread His messages. "Love your enemy" have been ignored by most churches. And this is my conviction. I have right to spread my conviction for the Lord, If I don't, I will be in trouble with Him.
Let's get back to the topic instead of personal attacks.
thank you.
That was not a personal attack. In direct contrast to the word of God, you claim to be God's messenger that if one is a member of an organization where one or more of its other members murder someone, then all members are guilty of that sin. I challenge you to prove such an assertion with God's written word, not just your "conviction" - which is nothing more than a personal opinion, not an edict of God. By your logic, if you are a citizen of a country and another citizen murders an innocent child, you are as guilty as any other citizen. Guilt by association is not a message of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
My response:
quote:
Revelation 18:4-17 (New International Version)
4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.
6Give back to her as she has given;
pay her back double for what she has done.
Mix her a double portion from her own cup.
7Give her as much torture and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
'I sit as queen; I am not a widow,
and I will never mourn.'
8Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.
9"When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her. 10Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
O Babylon, city of power!
In one hour your doom has come!'
11"The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any more— 12cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and bodies and souls of men.
14"They will say, 'The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your riches and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.' 15The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn 16and cry out:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet,
and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!
17In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!'
Please read very carefully; above verses are describing wealthy countries: When you belong to any ungodly organization, you have to follow everything they tell you to do or you will be shuned or excomunicated. All you can do is come out of it. That's why Jesus says to come out of her.
< Message edited by follower333 -- 5/30/2008 8:34:14 AM >
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 8:27:07 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I don't belong to any organization because if I belong to them, you have to follow everything what your leaders tells you to do.
This is funny.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 8:30:07 AM
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follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
I don't belong to any organization because if I belong to them, you have to follow everything what your leaders tells you to do.
This is funny.
Why is it funny?
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 8:31:26 AM
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follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Before I pick apart your post about why you need to leave this wealthy country, please FIRST address my post 132 above:
LINK
I just did.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 8:37:59 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
Please read very carefully; above verses are describing wealthy countries....
Are they? Or are they symbolically describing a false church, people who separate themselves from truth in order to follow human reasoning and it's consequences? In the end times, the false teachers of men are the enemies of Christ. One way to tell the false teachers is their rejection of the established order and accountability of the Church by Christ in the NT.
The Church is like a building made of living stones. An isolated stone may be proud of itself, but it will never be part of a building.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 8:39:24 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
I ask all of you to show me where you find Jesus or His disciples killed anyone for self defense; you cannot. Jesus' messages are very clear. He does not allow His people to harm anyone much less kill even for self defense. They had plenty of chances to kill because they were surrounded by many enemies who were trying to kill them; they got killed instead of killing their enemy.
Jesus came down on earth to show us good examples, why not follow Him?
Interesting that Jesus said in Matthew 10:34, "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
Perhaps you think tht was just metaphor, but Jesus was not using metaphor when He said in Luke 22:36, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one."
A sword has no non-military purpose.
In Romans, we are told that God ordained governments and their use of the sword for the benefit of believers and the Gospel. God does not ordain sin.
Another peculiar thing from your viewpoint: I find it very interesting the very vivid command to believers to put on the "full armor of God." Every one of those images are weapons of war.
Your POV would have God ordaining sin and, then, remarkably, using a sinful practice to describe how we should prepare ourselves for war with our enemy.
Your logic carried to its conclusion would make it a sin to become or use doctors (they take an oath - and one named for a pagan), use or become a policeman (they take an oath and carry lethal weapons), or take any measures to protect the innoncent, even one's own defenseless children. Despite OT and NT scripture to the contrary.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 8:44:41 AM
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follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
Please read very carefully; above verses are describing wealthy countries....
Are they? Or are they symbolically describing a false church, people who separate themselves from truth in order to follow human reasoning and it's consequences? In the end times, the false teachers of men are the enemies of Christ. One way to tell the false teachers is their rejection of the established order and accountability of the Church by Christ in the NT.
The Church is like a building made of living stones. An isolated stone may be proud of itself, but it will never be part of a building.
Ok, you don't have to listen to Jesus and make excuses all you want. It does not matter to you what the Bible says. You can bring your horse to the water, but you can not make him drink. I am done with you. thank you for your time. take care.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 8:51:06 AM
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Qtman
Posts: 9906
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
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Good morning.
I sat here last night and read this thread with tears streaming down my face. Some of those tears was from anger that some people would make such inflammatory post about the very people that gave their lives so they would have the right to make such statements. Some was at the administration for allowing threads with such statements to continue. Some was at the administration for threatening to ban anyone that could not keep their composure. But most was for the countless men and women who died for the freedoms we enjoy today.
Is the U.S. perfect. Of course not. Does this country have it's faults. Of course it does. But it is still the best place I have found to live to date. There are to this day countries that would have had some of the posters on this thread summarily executed for statements I have read here. But thanks to the U.S. Military this is not one of them.
When you people have buried as many soldiers as I have, then and only then talk to me about keeping one's composure while someone spits on the grave of those brave men and women.
As to being banned from the forums, I'll make it easy. Just close my account. I don't think I want to be a part of this anymore.
_____________________________
Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
~rogasinger4Him
Body Piercings
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 8:54:20 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
Ok, you don't have to listen to Jesus and make excuses all you want....
I resent your personal attack against my Lord and Savior and your rejection of scripture that refutes your position. I used scripture and you haved replied with hubris.
I notice you still will not address your claim that results in God ordaining and commending the very position you claim is sin.
You make God to contradict Himself and to use sin as a positive example of a Christian.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 8:59:31 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3396
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
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Pacifists have a hard time existing without soldiers dieing for their freedom to be so.
quote:
You are being an American rather than a follower of Jesus.
I wonder what this world would be like if not for us warmongering americans. Wow.
Jesus died for your spiritual freedom. Soldiers have died for your natural freedom
quote:
"God is love".
Jesus said there is no greater love than laying down your life for others...this is what soldiers do.
quote:
So you think killing your enemy is ok for christians
It was ok for God. It was ok for God to tell the isrealites to do. See...killing is not murder.
quote:
So you think it is ok for Christians to kill their enemy?
Define enemy. If its someone who disagrees with you but does not threaten you, then yes its not right to kill him. If they threaten you, that is a different story.
quote:
The military's whole purpose is to destroy their enemy's country.
I for one am glad not to have to speak german or japanese.
quote:
understand Jesus' deep love for evereyone
Jesus is gonna come back and slaugher billions.
Sgt. York believed in thou shallt not kill and fought through the legal system not to be drafted for ww1. When he lost his battel he went into the army. He was trained and sent to fight. He wasn't sure if he could kill anyone and ended up the biggest hero of that war.
When asked how he could kill when he was against killing he said people were dieing all around him and the only way to stop the killing...was to kill. He killed to save lives and he did it very well.
I am sure I did not give justice to his story but he was a christian and fought bravely in ww1. I respect that greatly. He saved many people that day, including hundreds of germans he and his few fellow soldiers captured. I think it was like 12 soldiers captiured hundreds of german soldiers mainly due to Yorks efforts.
There are many such stories of the congressional medal of honor winners.
All freedom is won by blood. It might not be the perfect world you want to live in but it is the world you live in.
By the way my son is a marine stationed in Japan, Okinawa to be specific. I could not be more proud of him, his free will choice to join the military, esspecially a marine, in time of war. That my friend...is a man.
< Message edited by SonInMe1 -- 5/30/2008 9:05:52 AM >
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 9:05:12 AM
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follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Interesting that Jesus said in Matthew 10:34, "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
Perhaps you think tht was just metaphor, but Jesus was not using metaphor when He said in Luke 22:36, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one."
How you interpret the Bible shows where your heart is. We can twist it any way we want. Let's Jesus decide who is in line with Him. I am only sharing my convictions what I have learned from the Bible. You can take it or leave it.
quote:
Another peculiar thing from your viewpoint: I find it very interesting the very vivid command to believers to put on the "full armor of God." Every one of those images are weapons of war.
This is all about knowing the Bible. Most of the time, sword and armore is the Bible. When we resist worldly mentality, we are resisting satan. When we are obedient to God by reading the Bible, we are prepared for worldly worries and predicaments and sins.
quote:
Your POV would have God ordaining sin and, then, remarkably, using a sinful practice to describe how we should prepare ourselves for war with our enemy.
If you are with the organization who is sinning, you are sharing the same guilt unless they repent every time they sin or change their rules. Do they listen to everyone and change accordingly? Do your organization stop support the military if you don't agree with the practice?
quote:
Your logic carried to its conclusion would make it a sin to become or use doctors (they take an oath - and one named for a pagan), use or become a policeman (they take an oath and carry lethal weapons), or take any measures to protect the innoncent, even one's own defenseless children. Despite OT and NT scripture to the contrary.
You dont make an oath when you become doctor, police man, and so on. Your excuses go on forever like I said; you can take my conviction seriously or leave it. No one can force anything to anyone.
take care.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 9:08:31 AM
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follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
Status: offline
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Everyone,
I will skip the similar posts. Many of the comments and posts are repetitous.
thank you
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 9:11:27 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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The Hippocratic Oath
Political leaders take an oath of office as well. Didn't you learn about this when you were in elementary school? Oh that's right you are not an American are you. If you ever decide to become an American Citizen you will have to take an Oath of Citizenship!
quote:
You dont make an oath when you become doctor, police man, and so on
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/30/2008 9:20:21 AM >
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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 9:17:23 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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Now I get it!!! Are you an emeny of the US?
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