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RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 9:29:48 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4558
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: David-West
You're "swearing" argument is pretty ridiculous. Are you talking about taking an oath? I'm guessing you're going off the principle of "let your yes be yes and your no be no." I think you're kind of missing the point, though. It's saying you shouldn't need to swear on something to hold yourself accountable, you should just do it anyway.
The point is not to be lukewarm... If you say yes it's not maybe, it's yes... Same with no... And you're bound by what you agree to. It's simply saying that if you give your word you are to keep it...
Numbers 30:2 If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.
Mathew 5
33. Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34. But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35. Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
The verses prior to Mathew 5:37 speak of not making vows in the name of God because one cannot guarantee they can fulfill them and God takes vows in His name very serious... To fail would to break the 3rd Commandment... That is why we are told to simply say YES or NO… And we are to keep our word...
quote:
An oath is different, it's just people verbalizing what they are promising to do and protect.
An oath is contract and or a covenant... And in taking an oath the principles of Mathew 5 apply... One shouldn't swear on God, by earth, or even yourself...
As well there is the principle of what you're swearing an oath to... Who and what you're making a covenant with...
John
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RE: Christians and military - 5/31/2008 8:58:42 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3515
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Bottom line is....without the sacrifice of soldiers, all pacifists would be in prison camps.
Is that....a good thing?
Without the sacrifices of policemen and women, all pacifists would be targtets of crime.
Is that....a good thing?
Its not a nice world out there. I think there always should be pacifists out there...just as long as they do not run the military or police force.
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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Christians and military - 5/31/2008 9:16:47 AM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6340
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quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
quote:
So you don't mind reaping the benefits of what our military has done for you?
Everything I am getting is from God. God provides. He gives everything what I need. Please don't be arrogant saying you are getting everything on your own. Please don't forget that satan has power too. If our mentality is not right, we may be getting ungodly things from satan. Satan used bribes; No everything is from God just because you have material blessing. Jesus says it is hard for rich man to inherit kingdom of God. Jesus loves meek and oppressed country and people.
God wants me here so I stay where He put me. He made me believer when I was here. It is obvious He wants me here. Do you see God's logic?
You know, I would probably get along fine with pacifists if they weren't always trying to start a war.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/31/2008 9:26:20 AM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6340
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quote:
ORIGINAL: David-West
I haven't had a chance to read through all of this thread yet, but as someone who ships off to Army Basic in less than 3 weeks, I'd like to reply to this post from the first page of this thread:
Thank you for serving US.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/31/2008 9:27:05 AM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
You know, I would probably get along fine with pacifists if they weren't always trying to start a war.
Amen to that!
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RE: Christians and military - 5/31/2008 11:17:30 AM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 290
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quote:
You're "swearing" argument is pretty ridiculous. Are you talking about taking an oath? I'm guessing you're going off the principle of "let your yes be yes and your no be no." I think you're kind of missing the point, though. It's saying you shouldn't need to swear on something to hold yourself accountable, you should just do it anyway. An oath is different, it's just people verbalizing what they are promising to do and protect.
Trouble is, it's an open-ended oath committing service to an institution in which my trust is very limited. I would much rather not swear an oath at all then swear it and one day do something I regretted simply in order to keep that oath.
I do agree with your interpretation of Jesus's statement on oaths somewhat, except that having said that, I would still not wear a formal oath under any condition, because in my mind that would imply that something I said without the formality was somehow less true or less reliable.
quote:
Jesus followers may be all around the world, but unless they are wayward, I will not be killing any of them while I'm in the military.
See, that's a claim I'm just not willing to put my trust in. History is full of occasions on which armies full of Christians fought other armies full of Christians - this for example happened multiple times in this century alone. And in most cases a large number of the Christians fighting on both sides were absolutely convinced that they were in the right. On other occasions they were there because they were drafted, or needed some money, or whatever. You seem to be assuming that your side is by definition just and that if an army opposes you their Christians must have "slipped" somehow. I do not make that assumption.
quote:
While I am in the military, I will of course answer to my superiors, but I will always answer to God first, and if that means disobeying the command structure, so be it. I will NOT carry out any immoral orders, therefore I will only be fighting against people who are in the wrong. I'm not just fighting blindly for my country, I'm fighting for what is right. As long as I am fighting for what is right, I will not let anyone get in my way. If a Christian is fighting against me, that would mean that they are fighting for the wrong side.
To my knowledge, the oath given upon joining most armed forces - and the rules and regs which follow - doesn't include a provision that I reserve for myself the right to judge what conflicts I will and won't participate in, and what actions I will and won't take. And excluding any argument about pacifism, for that reason I could not make the required oath.
quote:
See, I think that Christians who stand aside and let the innocent get killed are the hypocrites.
I'm not sure anyone who is responsible and compassionate, in fact I'm not sure anyone on this board, is advocating standing aside and watching while people are killed. I hope you're not implying that this is the basis of pacifism.
quote:
You may think that it isn't loving to kill an enemy, and in a sense, you're right: killing your enemy is not in and of itself loving, and is often quite the opposite. However, is it loving to sit by and watch as your enemy kills innocent people?
No that is not loving. Fortunately this is not an either-or choice, in my mind.
quote:
It isn't the act of killing your enemy that is loving, it is the act of protecting the innocent that this accomplishes.
Personally, I am called to love everyone. For me that includes not killing them. Jesus, and Paul, instructed me to love even my enemies; if they are hungry to feed them, and if they are thirsty to give them water, and so on. Surely this extends to not killing them.
quote:
Also, instead of praying that my enemies would be defeated or killed, I would pray that they changed.
You seem to have a very deep sense of honour and I respect you for that. But I think we see very differently on how one expresses the love of Christ.
quote:
So, with a mindset like this, am I a horrible, unloving person?
I have no reason to think that is the case. You and I serve the same Lord. I believe that firmly.
quote:
Bottom line is....without the sacrifice of soldiers, all pacifists would be in prison camps.
Is that....a good thing?
Well... it's not a great thing, no.
For one thing, though, I doubt that that is certainly true. It's a useful rhetorical tool to dismiss pacifists, but I doubt it can be proven. I also find it intriguing, incidentally, that pacifists tend to get exiled or imprisoned or such. You'd think it would be more likely that we simply wouldn't be seen as a threat.
More significantly, if I do end up in a prison camp, I will have gone there doing as much as I can to do what I believe is right. I believe that I am prepared to accept such suffering in that cause.
< Message edited by fiat_lux -- 5/31/2008 11:33:12 AM >
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RE: Christians and military - 5/31/2008 11:27:23 AM
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armydude
Posts: 16170
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quote:
quote:
It isn't the act of killing your enemy that is loving, it is the act of protecting the innocent that this accomplishes. Personally, I am called to love everyone. For me that includes not killing them. Jesus, and Paul, instructed me to love even my enemies; if they are hungry to feed them, and if they are thirsty to give them water, and so on. Surely this extends to not killing them. But does this extend to not allowing someone to hurt an innocent person? Does this love extend to protecting those that are not able to protect themselves? It does for me.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/31/2008 11:29:21 AM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 290
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quote:
But does this extend to not allowing someone to hurt an innocent person? Does this love extend to protecting those that are not able to protect themselves? It does for me.
I will do everything I can short of violence and killing to protect others. I will die in their place if necessary. But for me, to harm someone would be wrong in and of itself, and I will not do one wrong to prevent another. That would cross the line, in my opinion, into what Paul calls repaying evil with evil.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/31/2008 11:34:57 AM
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armydude
Posts: 16170
Joined: 2/12/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
But does this extend to not allowing someone to hurt an innocent person? Does this love extend to protecting those that are not able to protect themselves? It does for me.
I will do everything I can short of violence and killing to protect others. I will die in their place if necessary. But for me, to harm someone would be wrong in and of itself, and I will not do one wrong to prevent another. That would cross the line, in my opinion, into what Paul calls repaying evil with evil.
I understand what you're saying. I disagree (I hope you don't think less of me for it), but I do understand. Now here's another question. You said you'd die in the person's place. Would that really protect someone? I don't see it. If someone has an intent on harming another person, killing you would only postpone it a little while. Whereas placing yourself between the two and showing the attacker that you won't hesitate to stop him by any means necessary goes a little further. But if you do that, you need to be prepared to back that up.
IMHO, saying "God will take care of them" is a copout, and I don't see that in your words (thank goodness).
Having said that, if I were to see a criminal intent on hurting you (with or without knowing who you are from these forums) I would do what I could to make sure he didn't get it done. Would you as a victim stop me?
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RE: Christians and military - 5/31/2008 11:36:34 AM
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armydude
Posts: 16170
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
You're "swearing" argument is pretty ridiculous. Are you talking about taking an oath? I'm guessing you're going off the principle of "let your yes be yes and your no be no." I think you're kind of missing the point, though. It's saying you shouldn't need to swear on something to hold yourself accountable, you should just do it anyway. An oath is different, it's just people verbalizing what they are promising to do and protect.
Trouble is, it's an open-ended oath committing service to an institution in which my trust is very limited. I would much rather not swear an oath at all then swear it and one day do something I regretted simply in order to keep that oath.
I do agree with your interpretation of Jesus's statement on oaths somewhat, except that having said that, I would still not wear a formal oath under any condition, because in my mind that would imply that something I said without the formality was somehow less true or less reliable.
HERE is some information about the oath U.S. soldiers take. It is fascinating.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/31/2008 11:45:03 AM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 290
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From: Ottawa
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quote:
(I hope you don't think less of me for it)
Not at all. As I think I've said before, on this thread, we all have to interpret how to live on this issue, and I have to admit that it's very possible that at some point I will be persuaded that my views are wrong.
quote:
Now here's another question. You said you'd die in the person's place. Would that really protect someone? I don't see it. If someone has an intent on harming another person, killing you would only postpone it a little while. Whereas placing yourself between the two and showing the attacker that you won't hesitate to stop him by any means necessary goes a little further. But if you do that, you need to be prepared to back that up.
It may or may not protect them. I have to accept that I've put limits on my actions which may not be sufficient to prevent harm from being done. I certainly hope that my actions would prevent it, but at the end of the day they may not. Nevertheless, my own limitations aren't an excuse, in my mind, for crossing the line into repaying evil with evil. Ultimately, it is the other person who has done evil and they will have to settle that with God themselves. I will attempt to prevent the evil from occurring as far as I can. I will not use or threaten "any means necessary" because in my opinion some means are not good, whatever the ends.
If in some situation all I can do is delay harm being done, then I guess that's what I'll have to settle for. I suppose there's a situation where the criminal spends enough time beating me that someone else is able to get away.
quote:
IMHO, saying "God will take care of them" is a copout, and I don't see that in your words (thank goodness).
It is a cop out. I think James says that pretty clearly in his letter when he points out that you have to back up your words with actions, not just say "God will bless you" to someone who is hungry, etc, etc. In my opinion it is the height of irresponsibility to see evil and do nothing.
quote:
Having said that, if I were to see a criminal intent on hurting you (with or without knowing who you are from these forums) I would do what I could to make sure he didn't get it done. Would you as a victim stop me?
It's quite possible that where physical force is involved, I would be unable to stop anyone who is genuinely determined to do something. I don't consider physically holding someone back to be the same as violence or harming, I should note, and to that extent I would try to prevent you from harming him, or him from harming you.
I am grateful that you are willing to protect me. I think I would prefer the criminal to harm me than to burden your conscience with whatever "means necessary" you have in mind in my defence.
I hope that last paragraph doesn't come off as patronizing, I don't mean it to. That is simply how I feel about the hypothetical situation. I respect that you have a different code of honour than I do and I think that yours is also honourable, we just draw lines in different places. The people I have virtually no patience for are the ones who say we should sit and do nothing, not the ones who disagree with me on what exactly we should do.
< Message edited by fiat_lux -- 5/31/2008 11:52:15 AM >
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RE: Christians and military - 5/31/2008 11:51:33 AM
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armydude
Posts: 16170
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I would like to think that if the situation were to arise that I could restrain an attacker without physically harming him. (And I'm using "him" and "he" in my posts as a general term, not saying attackers have to be male.) But if that were impossible, what do you think should be done? I've personally seen dozens (and heard of hundreds) of cases where an attacker is just so crazed with anger (or on drugs) that physically restraining without causing pain is impossible. What do you suggest doing then?
And one more question. This hinges on a personal belief of mine, and if you don't share that belief, that is perfectly fine. I believe that our ultimate purpose is to give God the glory in everything we do. So the question is, how does you allowing yourself to be killed while an attacker eventually gets to his target anyway bring God glory?
IMHO it doesn't. It brings God more glory (once again MHO) for a well prepared Christian to stand in the gap, defending a helpless person doing whatever is necessary, but utilizing deadly force only as a last resort. In other words, I'm not looking for a reason to hurt anyone. But I will if that's what it takes.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/31/2008 10:20:20 PM
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armydude
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Christians should be able to disagree without getting mean about it. I try (sometimes I fail) to show God's love in my words, not only spoken but typed.
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RE: Christians and military - 6/1/2008 3:23:58 PM
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zamdad
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Fiat_Lux,
I also appreciate your ability to discuss your position on this topic. I think one of the things that gets discussion like this so heated is that sometimes people get so blind to any position outside their own that they get on a tangent and demand that others get on board with them. Thanks for adding to the conversation.
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Change is not necessarily reform anymore than noise is music.
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RE: Christians and military - 6/1/2008 3:35:12 PM
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DenimDiva
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I agree with what others have said about Fiat_Lux.
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RE: Christians and military - 6/1/2008 7:22:30 PM
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mch3172
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This has been a very interesting discussion, even if the original poster was clearly trying to start an argument. I think one reason this is such a volatile topic is that the New Testament doesn't have much to say about the justified use of force, since in the early church Christians were the target of violence, rather than being in a position to hand it out. Whether one can wage a just war became a controversial issue after Constantine, once the church became legal and part of the Roman state. Although the church in the Patristic Age often did condemn military service, this probably had more to do with the compulsory idolatry related to service in the Roman Army rather than the use of force per se. A Christian theology of just war has its beginning with Augustine of Hippo, and the rest, as they say, is history. His purpose in doing so, I should add, was actually to limit war, since imperial theologians of the Late Roman Empire were treating war as a positive good.
I guess the point of that long historical digression is to say that one reason this discussion gets so heated is that we have no clear New Testament verse saying whether military service is right or wrong, and therefore individual believers must rely on prayer, godly wisdom, and careful use of theology.
I apologize if this has been brought up already, but in addition to the account of Cornelius in Acts 10, Martin Luther also refers to the ministry of John the Baptist, when he was approached by soldiers asking "Teacher, what shall we do?" His response: "Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages." Here was another opportunity, if military service is sin, to say so clearly, yet John the Baptist did not. (Luke 3:14)
PS--I would like to thank all the veterans on this thread for their service--as a civilian, never a day goes by that I remember that my family and my own freedom have been paid for in the blood of brave men and women, and still are in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.
Matt Harrington
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RE: Christians and military - 6/1/2008 8:59:29 PM
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amyk
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I think that when Jesus talks about loving your enemy, He is talking more on the individual level. War is on a communal level. So, is it possible to love one's enemy even in the midst of war? I believe one example of this would be to treat captured enemies humanely. Also, if one can defend his country or his allies without killing individuals of the "enemy", then I think that would be the ideal.
This is a tough issue. I am thankful for the freedoms I have in this country and for those who have laid down their lives defending those freedoms. However, I admit that I am glad I personally have never been called on to go to war. I don't honestly know what I would do if I were called upon to actually kill someone. I can only imagine the stress of those who do engage in combat.
Ultimately, I think that the majority in the military would agree that the ideal is not to have to go to war at all. That does not mean the military should just disband! I do not think the majority of those who engage in combat take that lightly and just enjoy shooting or killing other human beings. But I also think that the Bible makes it clear that not all killing of human life is actually murder. Otherwise, God could not have demanded the killing of human beings without contradicting His own commandment.
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RE: Christians and military - 6/2/2008 4:55:39 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
Trouble is, it's an open-ended oath committing service to an institution in which my trust is very limited. I would much rather not swear an oath at all then swear it and one day do something I regretted simply in order to keep that oath.
You are only required to obey a lawful order. "Just obeying orders" is not an acceptable defense for any soldier or sailor accused of murder, rape, or any other intentional crime, regardless if an order was given by the highest ranking officer in the military.
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RE: Christians and military - 6/2/2008 8:28:52 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16170
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From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
Trouble is, it's an open-ended oath committing service to an institution in which my trust is very limited. I would much rather not swear an oath at all then swear it and one day do something I regretted simply in order to keep that oath.
You are only required to obey a lawful order. "Just obeying orders" is not an acceptable defense for any soldier or sailor accused of murder, rape, or any other intentional crime, regardless if an order was given by the highest ranking officer in the military.
Exactly. This is the oath soldiers take. (emphasis mine)
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).
This is specifically according to regulations and the UCMJ. The UCMJ specifically says that an order from a superior officer or higher ranking enlisted soldier that violates the UCMJ is unlawful. (If you ever have time, look up the UCMJ and try to read it. There's a lot there.)
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RE: Christians and military - 6/5/2008 1:51:46 PM
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jenn1864
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I know this thread is a few days old, but I just wanted to recommend this link to follower333:
http://www.gotquestions.org/military-Christian.html
I also wanted to correct something you mentioned in an earlier post. You said that all military members are guilty of murder, whether or not they have actually killed anyone. That premise is completely un-biblical. The Bible makes it very clear that we are held accountable only for our own actions, not the actions of others. Ezekiel 18:20: “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.” Likewise, I (a former active duty Navy Petty Officer, now Reserves) will not be judged for the sins of my fellow sailors. I will be judged for the sins that I have committed personally.
Also keep in mind that Jesus was not a pacifist. Matthew 24:6-8: “You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things MUST HAPPEN, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.” Jesus said he did not "come to bring peace, but a sword." Matthew 11:12: "From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it.” We are told to be "forceful"--with love, of course--but we are NOT told to stand by, love our enemies and hope they change their actions. We must act when we are called to do so.
Would Jesus have wanted us to stand on the sidelines and love Hitler as he slaughtered millions of God's own people? I don't think so. Mere expressions of love would not have stopped him. Sadly, the Jewish people are under attack yet again--this time from the militant Muslims--and I believe it is our duty and responsibility as Christians to protect and shield them as much as possible. No, we should not take actions into our own hands and indiscriminately kill Muslims or innocent civilians in the Middle East. We should pray for them, and show them the love we are capable of, but at the same time we should not be afraid to take up arms--our swords--and defend ourselves and the Israelis.
(From GotQuestions.org) Furthermore, there are many passages in which Centurian soldiers are acknowledged as Christians: Matthew 8:5,8,13; 27:54; Mark 15:39,44-45; Luke 7:2,6; 23:47; Acts 10:1,22; 21:32; 22:25-26; 23:17,23; 24:23; 27:1,6,11,31,43; 28:16
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RE: Christians and military - 6/6/2008 5:55:14 PM
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durac
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Hi everyone,
Im 18 and I have been seriously consider joining the Army as a Combat Medic with the Rangers (68W Option 40, for anyone that knows). I have been feeling a very strong sense to join in the past months. I see fathers and mothers that have wives, husbands, and kids in Iraq and Afghanistan fighting now for what happened on Sept. 11th. Why should they make such a sacrifice? If i could go over there and help one person come back home to their families it would make my goal complete.
"...and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."
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RE: Christians and military - 6/6/2008 7:22:07 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16170
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: durac
Hi everyone,
Im 18 and I have been seriously consider joining the Army as a Combat Medic with the Rangers (68W Option 40, for anyone that knows). I have been feeling a very strong sense to join in the past months. I see fathers and mothers that have wives, husbands, and kids in Iraq and Afghanistan fighting now for what happened on Sept. 11th. Why should they make such a sacrifice? If i could go over there and help one person come back home to their families it would make my goal complete.
"...and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."
If you go to current events you will see a LOT of people defending and attacking, not only the war on terror, but also | | |
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How nice to come into this thread this afternoon to read a sane conversation!
