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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/10/2008 9:55:07 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2205
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*waves companionably from the balcony*  Bye, then, Joy! Come back anytime—you’ll be very welcome.
And now, the post I promised John and Robb.
quote:
The question arises with the statement "a creation designed to glorify him". Obviously all creation does not glorify him
John, this statement raises a question for me, and would perhaps help clarify things if we can answer it. Here’s the question: “What glorifies God?” another one will come right after that…”How do we know what glorifies Him?”
Here’s a thought I had today. It’s a thought, and not scripture, but I think it will hold theological water, as it were.
Why does an artist make a work of art? Why does a sculptor sculpt? A painter paint? A composer compose? A poet rhyme? Is it because they lack something? Is it because they want something more than they have already?
No. It’s because something wells up in them and they have to let it out. It’s an outflowing of their very being. And most of the time they don’t create because they even desire glory for themselves, although it may result in that (and in quite often deserve that glory). Creators create. It’s what we do (apologies to Batman). And we are made in the image of God.
I asked myself, then: why would God need any better reason to create the world and humanity?
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And here is where I must disagree. If what you say is true, then some people are created solely to be cast into the lake of fire through no fault of their own. They are "doomed" to follow God's plan to use them as fuel in the fire. This contradicts the picture that scripture paints of God as Love.
At least one verse comes to mind about this statement. I think there are more but I can’t find them just at the moment.
Romans 9:21-23 Has the potter no right over the clay to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory”
To my mind this does mean that some people are created solely to be cast into the lake of fire. Yet it is not because they are not at fault. Not at all.
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Some people do get cast into the fire, but it's because they choose to be. They are given the chance to receive Christ and they refuse.
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But if God has everything planned out that we are forced to make the wrong choices then how can we be held responsible for them? See the problem here? Either we are free to chose to do evil, or we are innocent of it as a puppet is innocent of anything it does.
Here’s the deal: scripture is quite clear that we have all sinned. Not only have we all sinned, but we are born sinners. Further, it states clearly that Adam’s choice to sin is imputed to us all…we all died that day, spiritually.
We chose. We chose in Adam. We chose spiritual death and rebellion against God. We all chose, the day Adam sinned, to be cast into the lake of fire. We’re born spiritually dead. Scripture says we are “without excuse”. God is Love. But His Love does not trump His Justice.
Today I was listening to the parable of the sower. It always amazes me what a proper understanding of sovereignty and predestination clears up in scripture.
Folks, seeds are a better picture of people than might at first be obvious. Seeds are dead. Without the addition of water and nutrients, they will remain dead. In that parable scripture even states that some of the seed had no root. No chance for life at all. And then the parable is explained by Jesus Himself. The Sower (that would be God…) deliberately sowed some in good soil.
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If predestination is true as defined by most Calvinists than it is wasted effort to spread the gospel.
Leaving out the “as defined by most Calvinists” I’ll still take this one on.
It’s not wasted effort, because God Himself commands us to do it. It’s not wasted effort because God says that “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word.” Our efforts in spreading the gospel are to be done NOT because people are unsaved, but because God has elected some to be saved through our preaching of the Word. If we do it for any other reason, we’re doing it for the wrong reason.
On the other hand, to my mind, this makes my efforts at witnessing ever so much more hopeful. I no longer have the burden of worrying about whether I have forgotten one of the 4 Spiritual Laws, not prayed enough, not prepared enough, held my pinky finger in the wrong position. No. In obeying the Lord’s command to preach the gospel to the best of my own bumbling ability, I have done what I came to do: obeyed Him. It’s HIS job to do the rest. And He will! His call to their hearts WILL be effectual.
The only way we can fail is if we don’t preach. Even then, God will not fail.
Your thoughts are solicited. 
shallbe
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SHALLBE’S BATTY BELFRY
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/10/2008 11:03:43 PM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 17768
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
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Please forgive me, I am feeling somewhat scatter brained right now from a long day and just plain being tired. 
Anyway, the Bible does have instances where God actually hardened someone's heart. The only logical explanation comes from an Amy Grant song "How Can We See That Far?" Part of the chorus is the same sun that soften wax also harden's clay.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/11/2008 12:41:33 AM
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John_O
Posts: 8028
Joined: 9/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
quote:
The question arises with the statement "a creation designed to glorify him". Obviously all creation does not glorify him
...
I asked myself, then: why would God need any better reason to create the world and humanity?
Does any sane artist intentionally create something he hates? I don't think so. Why would God intentionally create a failed creation full of things He abhors if all He wanted was Glory? He could create us in heaven, or even here on Earth perfect (Totally sin free without even the capacity to sin). He must have wanted something that requires us to have the capacity to sin, that is, to have free will. In order to love him in Spirit and in truth we must freely choose to love him in Spirit and in truth. Else our love would be just a lie. (Without the ability to reject there is no ability to accept there is only robotics.)
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And here is where I must disagree. If what you say is true, then some people are created solely to be cast into the lake of fire through no fault of their own. They are "doomed" to follow God's plan to use them as fuel in the fire. This contradicts the picture that scripture paints of God as Love.
At least one verse comes to mind about this statement. I think there are more but I can’t find them just at the moment.
Romans 9:21-23 Has the potter no right over the clay to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory”
To my mind this does mean that some people are created solely to be cast into the lake of fire. Yet it is not because they are not at fault. Not at all.
If they were created without the chance to be forgiven of their sins, if they were created to be sinners and only sinners forever, If they have no ability to choose to not sin, then they are only guilty of fulfilling God's will. They have done nothing but obeyed the law he wrote into them. They are just robots being scrapped, but they are not guilty of anything.
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Here’s the deal: scripture is quite clear that we have all sinned. Not only have we all sinned, but we are born sinners. Further, it states clearly that Adam’s choice to sin is imputed to us all…we all died that day, spiritually.
We chose. We chose in Adam. We chose spiritual death and rebellion against God. We all chose, the day Adam sinned, to be cast into the lake of fire. We’re born spiritually dead. Scripture says we are “without excuse”. God is Love. But His Love does not trump His Justice.
Nowhere in scripture is Adam's sin imputed to us. The consequences of it are (death and a sin nature) but the guiltiness for that sin is never placed on us. I'll expand on this tomorrow as I cut and paste from the discussion on that other thread (which is inhabited by mostly nasty people with bad attitudes (except for about two I can think of) on both sides).
We never chose. Adam chose, that is true, but we didn't. I'll have more on this too.
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Folks, seeds are a better picture of people than might at first be obvious. Seeds are dead. Without the addition of water and nutrients, they will remain dead. In that parable scripture even states that some of the seed had no root. No chance for life at all.
The ones with no root did have life, they sprang up and lived. The ones on stony ground were eaten by the birds. they didn't get a chance to grow at all. Now, were either of those seeds guilty of any fault? No. They were placed were they were placed and they had no choice to fix it.
quote:
quote:
If predestination is true as defined by most Calvinists than it is wasted effort to spread the gospel.
Leaving out the “as defined by most Calvinists” I’ll still take this one on.
It’s not wasted effort, because God Himself commands us to do it. It’s not wasted effort because God says that “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word.” Our efforts in spreading the gospel are to be done NOT because people are unsaved, but because God has elected some to be saved through our preaching of the Word. If we do it for any other reason, we’re doing it for the wrong reason.
Whether God commands us to do it or not does not make the effort useful. If predestination as defined by the Calvinists is true then it doesn't matter whether anyone preaches. The preaching does nothing. Those who will be saved will be saved whether someone preaches or not. Whether they ever hear the word or not, whether they are axe murdering, incestuous, lying thieves or not. They have no choice and no earthly circumstance has any effect.
Sure we'll still preach (and pray as the same argument applies)because God told us to. But it doesn't do anything.
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On the other hand, to my mind, this makes my efforts at witnessing ever so much more hopeful. I no longer have the burden of worrying about whether I have forgotten one of the 4 Spiritual Laws, not prayed enough, not prepared enough, held my pinky finger in the wrong position. No. In obeying the Lord’s command to preach the gospel to the best of my own bumbling ability, I have done what I came to do: obeyed Him. It’s HIS job to do the rest. And He will! His call to their hearts WILL be effectual.
This is even more so for the free will side of the discussion. EVERYONE I talk to has the chance to be saved. I'm not responsible for the reception of the message, that's between them and God, I just deliver it. I don't have to worry about family members going to hell because they were doomed to go there. I know that they can choose to go to heaven. (I cannot force them to go to heaven, I can only show them Jesus)
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The only way we can fail is if we don’t preach. Even then, God will not fail.
We don't fail if we don't preach. Those who will be saved will be saved anyway. It doesn't matter what we do.
In fact, if predeterminism, as defined by the Calvinists, is true, nothing we do makes any difference in anything, and nothing we do is our idea anyway. We went out and got drunk and committed fornication? That's because God decreed that we would do that. We ran over our children with the car? God decreed it. We helped a little old lady cross the street? God decreed it. We read our bible? God decreed it. We ate breakfast? God decreed it. We never have an idea or a thought that God didn't force us to have. We are robots simply fulfilling our programming.
Just looked at the clock. YIKES!! I've got to get to bed. Work is early tomorrow!!! I'll finish and polish this tomorrow night
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/11/2008 9:14:03 AM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2205
Joined: 11/8/2007
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John, when you come back:
I appreciate your candor in sharing these issues. They are real and we all need to talk about them. But we can't just speculate. We have to search scripture for the answer. It's ok to support scripture with illustrations, but not ok to just discuss the illustrations.
If my illustration bothers you, let's go back to the original question.
What glorifies God? How do we know it glorifies God?
Scripture is our only source of information here, so I'm going to go there and look this up today as I have time...perhaps we could do as before and post a summary list of the references as we have opportunity.
quote:
Now, were either of those seeds guilty of any fault? No. They were placed were they were placed and they had no choice to fix it.
They were placed where they were placed and had no choice to fix it. Right. And since this was a parable taught by Jesus, we can assume that His use of seed as a metaphor for people was as accurate as such metaphors can be.
So exactly how did Jesus explain this parable? Our mental gymnastics don't help. We can only rely on what He said, and draw our conclusions from that.
Were the seed guilty of any fault? Well, they certainly could have been convicted of being seed.
quote:
Whether God commands us to do it or not does not make the effort useful. If predestination as defined by the Calvinists is true then it doesn't matter whether anyone preaches. The preaching does nothing. Those who will be saved will be saved whether someone preaches or not. Whether they ever hear the word or not, whether they are axe murdering, incestuous, lying thieves or not. They have no choice and no earthly circumstance has any effect.
Sure we'll still preach (and pray as the same argument applies)because God told us to. But it doesn't do anything.
Frankly, I couldn't care any less how Calvinists define predestination. Or Reformed or neo-reformed or arminians. What matters is what God says about it. So what does God say about predestination? And the only source we have is...yep, scripture.
So, here are a couple of scriptures I came up with. Do you have others?
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will
In my mind this is conclusive evidence that there is some kind of predestination.
Allow me to make myself very clear. I don't give a rip what any group says. I've been Baptist, Charismatic, Word of Faith, non-denominational. Names don't impress me or scare me, though I'm quite willing to use them in their proper context.
What matters to me is what The Creator of the Universe says. The only reliable source I have for that is scripture.
Of course, there is a right way to handle scripture (or any historical reference...it's called hermeneutics) and I will defer to that when necessary. Right now, I think it's most important to establish what God says, and that only what God says matters.
Prove to me that any doctrine is scripturally sound, and I will subscribe to it, in a New York minute.
shallbe
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SHALLBE’S BATTY BELFRY
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/11/2008 12:13:02 PM
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LabGuy
Posts: 3309
Joined: 9/22/2007
From: NW Pennsylvania
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Um, as to the Parable of the Sower, Jesus explains clearly that the seed is the Word. The different kinds of soil are the people (or perhaps their hearts). The parable is about how different people react to the Gospel.
Now one could debate whether the people are a particular kind of "soil" because God made them that way. I'm not going to go there, but let's further the analogy. In agriculture, even inhospitable soil can be cultivated; it just takes a whole lot more work. Weeds/thorns can be pulled, stones removed, and hard, packed-down soil broken up. So in other words, for some people to be receptive to the Gospel, it may take a significant, caring investment in their lives beforehand. (And after... "Apollos watered")
I actually hadn't considered that aspect of the parable before. Good discussion. 
-Robb
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/11/2008 12:16:26 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2205
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LabGuy
Um, as to the Parable of the Sower, Jesus explains clearly that the seed is the Word. The different kinds of soil are the people (or perhaps their hearts). The parable is about how different people react to the Gospel.
Now one could debate whether the people are a particular kind of "soil" because God made them that way. I'm not going to go there, but let's further the analogy. In agriculture, even inhospitable soil can be cultivated; it just takes a whole lot more work. Weeds/thorns can be pulled, stones removed, and hard, packed-down soil broken up. So in other words, for some people to be receptive to the Gospel, it may take a significant, caring investment in their lives beforehand. (And after... "Apollos watered")
I actually hadn't considered that aspect of the parable before. Good discussion.
-Robb
Ah...thanks for the correction, Robb. 
And what you say is true. Since I believe that my work and my decisions matter regardless of God's Sovereignty, that's a good lesson.
shallbe
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SHALLBE’S BATTY BELFRY
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/11/2008 10:36:36 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8028
Joined: 9/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
John, when you come back:
I appreciate your candor in sharing these issues. They are real and we all need to talk about them. But we can't just speculate. We have to search scripture for the answer. It's ok to support scripture with illustrations, but not ok to just discuss the illustrations.
If my illustration bothers you, let's go back to the original question.
What glorifies God? How do we know it glorifies God?
Let's go even further back. Where is the scriptural proof that creation was designed with it's primary purpose being to glorify God? (This might have been posted and I missed it, but I don't remember seeing it at all.)
We know that God (Jesus) says the greatest commandment is to love God (Matt 22:37). This is the most important thing we can do, The thing we should do before all other things. Love God.
Not praise Him, Not worship him, not give him glory, but love him. Certainly we should do those other things, but we do them because we love Him.
quote:
Scripture is our only source of information here, so I'm going to go there and look this up today as I have time...perhaps we could do as before and post a summary list of the references as we have opportunity.
Excellent idea. Unfortunately I'm pretty booked this week, and can only get on late at night.
quote:
Were the seed guilty of any fault? Well, they certainly could have been convicted of being seed.
But keeping in the tone of the parable, a sower sows seed expecting a return. He doesn't intentionally throw seed to the rocks or out in the road just to watch it die. Seed is expected to return a harvest (30, 60, 100 fold)
quote:
Frankly, I couldn't care any less how Calvinists define predestination. Or Reformed or neo-reformed or arminians. What matters is what God says about it. So what does God say about predestination? And the only source we have is...yep, scripture.
I always include that adjective as I do not agree with the way Calvinists define predestination. No offense is intended. I just want to be clear that it's not my definition.
quote:
So, here are a couple of scriptures I came up with. Do you have others?
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Lets start a little earlier in this passage.
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Note, not to them that give glory to God. (This one is free. I just noticed it  )
The Greek word translated "called" is sometimes used to denote an external invitation (Matt 20:16, 22:14) But in most places it is used to describe those who have accepted the invitation. Christians are the "called of God"
On to 29.
The Greek word translated "foreknow" does not apply to all humanity (as some are not conformed to Christ's image). It also denotes certainty. There is no doubt. What it does not do is define whether those foreknown are decreed to be predestined (that is, forced into salvation) or whether God simply knows that they will choose to accept salvation. The word doesn't say why, how or on what grounds God knew they would be Christians.
quote:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will
Here he is talking to Christians. Of course all Christians are predestinated into adoption. That's part of what Christian is, You cannot become a Christian without joining God's family. It does not say that we were predestinated (decreed) to become Christians
quote:
In my mind this is conclusive evidence that there is some kind of predestination.
I never claimed there wasn't. God has a destiny planned for all Christians. And these verses speak to it. What I have said is that predestination is not what the Calvinists say it is, that some are arbitrarily picked (decreed) to be saved and some are arbitrarily picked (decreed) to be damned. I don't know of any scriptural support for such a thing.
(I can tell that my use of "as the Calvinists define it" bothers you but I really don't know of a better way to phrase it so that my intent is clear)
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Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/11/2008 10:37:57 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8028
Joined: 9/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LabGuy
Um, as to the Parable of the Sower, Jesus explains clearly that the seed is the Word. The different kinds of soil are the people (or perhaps their hearts). The parable is about how different people react to the Gospel.
Now one could debate whether the people are a particular kind of "soil" because God made them that way. I'm not going to go there, but let's further the analogy. In agriculture, even inhospitable soil can be cultivated; it just takes a whole lot more work. Weeds/thorns can be pulled, stones removed, and hard, packed-down soil broken up. So in other words, for some people to be receptive to the Gospel, it may take a significant, caring investment in their lives beforehand. (And after... "Apollos watered")
I actually hadn't considered that aspect of the parable before. Good discussion.
-Robb
WOW! Excellent point Robb!.. I also haven't look at it that way before.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/11/2008 10:51:11 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8028
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
quote:
Here’s the deal: scripture is quite clear that we have all sinned. Not only have we all sinned, but we are born sinners. Further, it states clearly that Adam’s choice to sin is imputed to us all…we all died that day, spiritually.
We chose. We chose in Adam. We chose spiritual death and rebellion against God. We all chose, the day Adam sinned, to be cast into the lake of fire. We’re born spiritually dead. Scripture says we are “without excuse”. God is Love. But His Love does not trump His Justice.
Nowhere in scripture is Adam's sin imputed to us. The consequences of it are (death and a sin nature) but the guiltiness for that sin is never placed on us. I'll expand on this tomorrow as I cut and paste from the discussion on that other thread (which is inhabited by mostly nasty people with bad attitudes (except for about two I can think of) on both sides).
quote:
We never chose. Adam chose, that is true, but we didn't. I'll have more on this too.
De 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Every man shall be put to death (separated from God) for his own sin. I did not sin Adam's sin. I've sinned plenty enough of my own sins. A baby is innocent of sin. "Neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers".
While it is our nature to sin, because of Adam's sin
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
We are not guilty of Adam's sin. Note verse 14 "Them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's sin". If his sin had been imputed to us this statement would be a lie because we would have sinned his same exact sin.
quote:
We never chose. Adam chose, that is true, but we didn't. I'll have more on this too.
We have a sin nature due to Adam's sin. We thus we are sinners. It does not however say that we are guilty of his sin. Condemning us for Adam's sin is exactly the same as God arbitrarily casting people into hell because they are unable to receive salvation because that's how God made them. We cannot be guilty of something we haven't done.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous
Vs 18 refers back to verse 16 as in summation. Note that in verse 16 the apostle does not claim that Adam's sin was imputed to us, only that the result of the sin was that the whole race would be under the condemning sentence of the law. He does not say HOW this will happen. He does not impute Adam's sin to us
We cannot read into scripture more than is there.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/12/2008 7:56:04 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2205
Joined: 11/8/2007
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I have good news! But first, let me clear something up:
Through this discussion I am learning even more about how limited internet communication is, and how bad I really am at it  .
John, you said:
quote:
(I can tell that my use of "as the Calvinists define it" bothers you but I really don't know of a better way to phrase it so that my intent is clear)
I wasn't offended at all. The only reason it bothers me is that I don't want the discussion to get off on what this group believes vs. what that group believes. Because that isn't important. Holding up two sets of beliefs and comparing them to find out which of them fits my own thoughts is perhaps a good discussion over in M & E in the C v A thread, but that's not what we're about here.
Here, we are seeking Truth by searching God's Word, and we are all seekers.
Call me anything you like (my ddh would add: "but don't call me late for dinner"  ), but the basis of the discussion is Truth in God's Word, not what names we put on them.
Now that that's put to rest...
Here's the good news: I did a little research last night. The burning question for John, at least, in this discussion, is "Why Creation"? Why did God create the world, especially if He knew it was going to go sour directly.
In my research I came across the following audio file. After listening to it more than twice today, I have to say that it states what I believe to be the closest thing to biblical truth on the matter that I have yet come across.
In an effort to 1) avoid reinventing the wheel, 2) avoid worrying about what Ike might do to my internet connection over the weekend and it's impact on this discussion and ultimately 3) provide the most biblical answer I believe there is to John's question, I give you...
The Reason for Our Creation
Listen all the way through even if at first what is being taught seems outrageous. It is an AMAZING message...I can't wait to listen to the two sequels.
Then, if you can provide as much scriptural evidence to show that this position is in error as that which is expounded in it, I will consider your point.
Grab a glass of wine or your soft drink of choice, drag up a papasan chair, and have a listen... 
shallbe
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SHALLBE’S BATTY BELFRY
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/13/2008 7:28:08 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8028
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
Here's the good news: I did a little research last night. The burning question for John, at least, in this discussion, is "Why Creation"? Why did God create the world, especially if He knew it was going to go sour directly.
In my research I came across the following audio file. After listening to it more than twice today, I have to say that it states what I believe to be the closest thing to biblical truth on the matter that I have yet come across.
In an effort to 1) avoid reinventing the wheel, 2) avoid worrying about what Ike might do to my internet connection over the weekend and it's impact on this discussion and ultimately 3) provide the most biblical answer I believe there is to John's question, I give you...
The Reason for Our Creation
Listen all the way through even if at first what is being taught seems outrageous. It is an AMAZING message...I can't wait to listen to the two sequels.
Then, if you can provide as much scriptural evidence to show that this position is in error as that which is expounded in it, I will consider your point.
Grab a glass of wine or your soft drink of choice, drag up a papasan chair, and have a listen...
shallbe
After listening to it, and considering and studying the wealth of scripture within it (I love the pause button!), I still come to the conclusion that he never answered the question. Yes we are to give God glory. Why? Because we love Him.
The entire sermon tells what we are to do while we are here but never addresses WHY we are here. Everything covered in the sermon could have been created in place in heaven. None of it requires Earth to exist.
Moving to a point near the end of the sermon he discusses Rev 5:9-12 and talks about how we are praising the lamb who was slain because he was slain.
We know the crucifixion is supremely important but WHY was it necessary? God could have easily skipped this entire earth and created us already in heaven praising him with the same exact fervor.
So what was worth more to God than the suffering and death of His Son? Why did He make Jesus (although Jesus was perfectly willing) go through that when it was not necessary just for God to get glory (He's God, he could have created as many perfect worshippers as He wanted and received the same praise)?
The only clue that scripture gives us is what Jesus tells us is the most important thing for us to do.
Mt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
God wants us to love Him. That is why He created us. Now, Why is earth necessary? Because He wanted us to choose to love Him. Forced love is not true love. Lots of times throughout the old testament and new the command is given, "Love the Lord your God" Obviously He wants us to do that. Yet we know that He is God and could easily create us to love Him. Yet he didn't. each of us was an enemy of God at one point. But we repented and came to love Him. Why put up with the sin and the rebellion and the abomination of this world when He didn't have to.
What is Mr Piper's conclusion? That the apex of grace is for us to be able to know, love, cherish, treasure and enjoy God forever.
God wants us to Love Him. Forever. And That is why He created us and the Earth.
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Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/13/2008 11:16:38 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2205
Joined: 11/8/2007
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John, it is my opinion that Mr. Piper's point was that the reason for creation was that God might have a reason to glorify His Son Jesus by sending him to the cross. Perhaps if you are able to listen to it again you'll catch the portion where he makes that point.
That the act of grace that is at the apex is the act of Jesus' substitutionary death. And without creation, that act could not have been. Ergo, John_O was created...every atom and galaxy and sinner...was created so that Jesus' substitutionary slaughter could occur. In order that God Himself could glorify Himself with His own greatest act of Grace.
This is a hard teaching, but as I stated above, it is what I believe is the closest thing to biblically sound theology on the subject.
For me, it's a real comfort. It means that God is only making me go through what I am going through so that I will have the capacity to enjoy him infinitely in Heaven.
My thoughts concerning your reasoning about the greatest commandment is this: God did not give us the greatest commandment because he wanted or lacked something. He gave it because we needed to know what was the very best thing we could give our time and attention to...He gave it because the way we can be most blessed is to give worth to the most worthy thing.
I hope that makes sense.
(edited to add...)
But I'm heartily willing to concede your point, provided there is sufficient evidence in the whole counsel of scripture. Is there sufficient evidence? Is there more scripture supporting the idea that the reason for creation being that God wanted a people to love Him?
shallbe
< Message edited by ShallbeRebuilt -- 9/13/2008 11:53:21 PM >
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SHALLBE’S BATTY BELFRY
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/14/2008 11:59:08 AM
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John_O
Posts: 8028
Joined: 9/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
John, it is my opinion that Mr. Piper's point was that the reason for creation was that God might have a reason to glorify His Son Jesus by sending him to the cross. Perhaps if you are able to listen to it again you'll catch the portion where he makes that point.
I caught the point where he said that. I just disagree because it does not answer the question of why the earth was created in the first place.
That the act of grace that is at the apex is the act of Jesus' substitutionary death. And without creation, that act could not have been. Ergo, John_O was created...every atom and galaxy and sinner...was created so that Jesus' substitutionary slaughter could occur. In order that God Himself could glorify Himself with His own greatest act of Grace.
This is a hard teaching, but as I stated above, it is what I believe is the closest thing to biblically sound theology on the subject.
But it still does not present a reason why the earth had to be. If God was looking to receive glory (praise, worship, recognition of his worth), they why didn't he just create infinite numbers of worshippers right in heaven who could see those things. He's God he could have done that. Why did he require His son to be tortured and die? It makes no sense if He was just looking for praise.
quote:
For me, it's a real comfort. It means that God is only making me go through what I am going through so that I will have the capacity to enjoy him infinitely in Heaven.
Truth. But we could also have enjoyed him infinitely in heaven without having to go through this hell called Earth. Why is Earth needed?
quote:
My thoughts concerning your reasoning about the greatest commandment is this: God did not give us the greatest commandment because he wanted or lacked something. He gave it because we needed to know what was the very best thing we could give our time and attention to...He gave it because the way we can be most blessed is to give worth to the most worthy thing.
Mr Piper's whole sermon was based on the point that everything God does he doe because He want's something. God commanded us to love Him because He wants to be loved. It is true that He is the best place to place that love, but that doesn't change the fact that He also wants it.
If we just needed to know that He was the very best thing we could give our time and attention to, He would have told us that "Give your time and attention to me" as teh greatest commandment. But what He commanded is thta we love Him.
quote:
But I'm heartily willing to concede your point, provided there is sufficient evidence in the whole counsel of scripture. Is there sufficient evidence? Is there more scripture supporting the idea that the reason for creation being that God wanted a people to love Him?
We are the bride of Christ. Throughout Scripture The relationship of God to His people is depicted as a marriage (among other ways). We are His bride. What is the characteristic that makes someone to be a bride to a bridegroom? She loves him, and He loves her. Without Creation there would be no Bride that freely chose to love Him. (Search bride, marriage, wife, lover etc and of course Song of Solomon)
Throughout scripture the Relationship of God to his people is depicted as a father to His children. The strongest bond between a good father and his kids is love. My daughter loves me and that blesses me immensely. You cannot get a love from a child to its parent unless you are a parent. Does our love for our Heavenly Father not bless Him also?
Without going through the scriptures I'd guess there's quite a few verses talking about God looking for his children. Probably at least as many as the glory verses that Mr Piper referenced (22 in the section on glory). We'd need to search "children, sons, adoption etc and find the ones that apply. Without creation there would be no children that freely chose to love Him.
So far I still see love, freely given, as the only reason the Earth would be required. Everything else God could have created straight in heaven. Earth is required because a choice is required.
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Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/14/2008 2:28:02 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2205
Joined: 11/8/2007
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Ok. I still think you may be missing the point. Let me state it even more clearly, simply for my own satisfaction that I have communicated it effectively.
God is completely satisfied in Himself as Trinity. There is nothing He lacks, including praise and worship.
He determined before the foundation of the world--therefore before creation that glorifying His Son to the utmost required His Son's slaughter for people that hated Him.
So He Slew Him. He used His blood to write the names of the people who hated Him in The Book of Life of the Lamb Who Was Slaughtered Before The Foundation Of The World.
Now this may be helpful. People who hate God can't live with God.
Ergo, the earth...a place where people can live who hate God.
And a place where the greatest act of Grace can occur to the praise of His glory.
Alright. That's my stance.
So now...let's look at your theory.
"Earth is required because choice is required."
I can agree that choice is required. I don't have a problem agreeing with that, at all. I will not go so far as to say that earth is required BECAUSE choice is required, but perhaps it will be instructive to discuss just the requirement of choice.
shallbe
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SHALLBE’S BATTY BELFRY
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/16/2008 8:53:12 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2205
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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eeeewwwwww...I think the antipasto is dead.
Hello!!
Hello!!
Hello!!
Hello!!
Hello!!
<crickets chirping>
Geez. Well, I guess I'll clean up this mess. Gotta get the place spiffin' for my important posts next week. Maybe someone will come in and read that stuff...*sniff*.
<cries> It's lonely in here!
shallbe
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SHALLBE’S BATTY BELFRY
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/16/2008 8:56:13 PM
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FunBetty
Posts: 7534
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dr Pepper Country
Status: offline
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Heya Esther....I've been mildly lurking. Too busy/drained to keep up with the discussion but I still wuvs you!!!!!
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Fun Betty's Therapy Centre and Cheesecake and Cookie Shoppe
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/16/2008 9:07:34 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2205
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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Awww, thanks FB...I wuvs you, too!
Let me know you're coming next time and I'll make sure there's some dublin Dr. Pepper, k?
(what's that mean, btw...dublin? I've seen it advertised, but it looks lik Dr. Pepper in a bottle to me.)
shallbe
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SHALLBE’S BATTY BELFRY
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/16/2008 9:10:17 PM
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FunBetty
Posts: 7534
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dr Pepper Country
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
Awww, thanks FB...I wuvs you, too!
Let me know you're coming next time and I'll make sure there's some dublin Dr. Pepper, k?
(what's that mean, btw...dublin? I've seen it advertised, but it looks lik Dr. Pepper in a bottle to me.)
shallbe
Dublin is a city (town?) in texas that makes the original blend of dr pepper. Which is pretty much sugar cane instead of the high fructose corn syrup. They have their own little museum....west of Waco, I believe :)
The difference in taste is not huge, imo...but I'm always looking for a good reason to stay away from the corn syrup. Something about that is not right!!!
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Fun Betty's Therapy Centre and Cheesecake and Cookie Shoppe
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/16/2008 9:16:22 PM
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BlessedAngel1983
Posts: 11772
Joined: 6/8/2007
From: South Carolina
Status: online
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Hey Esther! I've been lurking too, just not much to add.
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Reflecting with Terri
If you're worried and you can't sleep
Just count your blessings instead of sheep
And you'll fall asleep counting your blessings
AKA AngelInWaiting1983
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