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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/17/2008 9:21:17 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
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Hi, John!
Great, take your time...I was just worried when you didn't show up for a day or two.
shallbe
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SHALLBE’S BATTY BELFRY
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/18/2008 11:50:06 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8028
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
I was finally able to listen to part of the second sermon today. Here is the link to it.
The Nature of Our Depravity
The title may throw you off, but he continues his explanations that are so pertinent to the conversation here. John, he speaks directly to your proof text, so I think you will really appreciate how he connects it all.
Excellent sermon. But he still doesn't answer WHY the earth is necessary. He does address that loving God is the most important thing we are to do. In fact, I am in agreement with the vast majority of his points. (a couple at the end he does not go into depth enough to prove, as they are stated I see them contradictory to the bible, but they are trivial to the main topic of our conversation)
More tomorrow. Bedtime now.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/19/2008 9:51:50 AM
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John_O
Posts: 8028
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
God is completely satisfied in Himself as Trinity. There is nothing He lacks, including praise and worship.
The bible says this is not so. Rev 4:11 tells us that we were created for God's pleasure. Therefore, before He created us He was not satisfied, else why did He create us. If God was totally satisfied in Himself then we would not exist. Man was created to give God pleasure (per Revelation).
quote:
He determined before the foundation of the world--therefore before creation that glorifying His Son to the utmost required His Son's slaughter for people that hated Him.
Again I disagree. Not that Jesus would be glorified through this, because He has been/will be, but that it is to the utmost.
1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
If we can't even imagine the good things that God has for us how can we claim to even remotely understand just how great God is (the giver is always greater than the gift, just as the creator is always greater than the creation).
The only way we can get a better understanding of God's greatness is to be with Him in heaven, and even then it will take infinity for us to understand most of Him (if we will even become capable of that much). He's just too great for us to fathom.
So He could have instantly recieved greater glory by creating us in heaven with a greater capacity to understand how worthy He is. Earth was not necessary soley for God to be glorified.
quote:
Now this may be helpful. People who hate God can't live with God.
Ergo, the earth...a place where people can live who hate God.
I agree. Until they choose to love Him, then He has made a way for us to be with Him.
quote:
And a place where the greatest act of Grace can occur to the praise of His glory.
Almost agree. We cannot say greatest act of grace as we do not understand what other acts of grace He has in store for us.
quote:
So now...let's look at your theory.
"Earth is required because choice is required."
I can agree that choice is required. I don't have a problem agreeing with that, at all. I will not go so far as to say that earth is required BECAUSE choice is required, but perhaps it will be instructive to discuss just the requirement of choice.
Mr Piper's 2nd sermon goes into great detail on God desiring to be preferred above everything. Here is where the concepts of love and glory merge. To give glory to God, to acknowledge and celebrate his worth, is to love Him. That is, When we prefer Him above everything (which is love) we will see Him as most worthy.
In order to prefer God above everything we need to have something to prefer Him above AND the option to choose either way. "Prefer" requires choice.
(This also brings to light a unifying theme to a whole lot of scripture. God desires to be loved. All the scriptures againt idolatry, every place where God speaks against Israel for commiting adultery against Him, the commands of the NT, the marriage of the lamb, etc. all proclaim God's desire to be the central focus of our hearts. This is why He sees idolatry as adultery. Because it is us putting something else in His place. He uses "adultery" because the greatest hurt we can feel is when the one we love turns away from us and replaces us with someone else.)
So why is the Earth needed? Because in order to honestly prefer God (love God) we must have the freedom to reject God.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/19/2008 9:59:37 AM
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JustJeannie
Posts: 5096
Joined: 6/14/2007
From: the state of confusion
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Ms. Esther, I too am a lurker, and truly find your discussion interesting. BUT I am still so new in my faith and still learning so much, I prefer not to input for fear of "dumbing down" this discussion. Any and all points made by yourself, John, and Robb are encouraged by ME and give me things to discuss more with my mentor and pastors.
Esther, you are truly loved here!!!
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Jeannie
'Cause I'm cool like that....
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/20/2008 4:11:37 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2205
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Well, Batty Peeps, I mentioned a few weeks ago that I was preparing a special post. Here it is. While it is a sad story in some ways, it also speaks of victory and joy. It has blessed others, so I post it here in honor of my ddh’s 10th anniversary in Heaven. It is not quite the exact date, but I was afraid I wouldn’t have time to post it next week.
The Letter: in memoriam Michael J. Jones, 12/7/56-9/24/98
It would be so much better if this story could be told by Michael himself. As it is, his story was destined to be told by others, in this case me, his widow. I ask the reader for indulgence since it must all be written from my point of view. I am sure that if Michael himself could edit it, things would look a lot different.
The sun had just cleared the horizon the morning of September 24th, 1998. My daughter and I sat down in the living room with our hot coffee to begin the day with our usual quiet time together before the day got well started. My husband had kissed me and left for work on his bicycle about twenty minutes before. I remember thinking that he must not feel very good from the look on his face.
I do not remember what GP1 and I talked about, but I do remember two things that happened during our conversation. At one point our discussion was momentarily stopped because the noise of sirens interrupted us. As siren after siren passed, I remember commenting to GP1 that "that's a bad one". Soon after, our voices died out for a moment while we rested in companionable silence. During that silence an unusual sound became very apparent, growing louder. Like a single three-note cord sustained by an organ but increasing in volume, the humming sound crescendoed, then faded. Thinking that my ears might be playing tricks on me, I asked GP1 if she heard that? She responded that she did. We never experienced it again in that house or ever. I still do not know what significance it had, but the rest of the events of that day give me to believe that something supernatural was happening.
After our coffee, GP1 and I got up to begin our day. This included getting dressed and beds made, house tidied and breakfast before we began our homeschool study time. GP1, BP2 and GP3 got up and began their morning routines...little GP4, at age 15 months, was allowed to sleep as long as possible to give us freedom to work.
At this unusual time, the doorbell rang. I let the children answer it, as I was still in my bathrobe. Seconds later they appeared before me with wide eyes, saying that a policeman was at the door! I was sure, as were they, that our worst nightmare had come true and we were about to be confronted for our homeschooling. GP1 and BP2 later reported to me that they met in the hall and promised each other that they would not be forced into going to school!
Instead, however, the Sheriff asked me if I was Mrs. Jones, and informed me that my husband had been killed that morning. Within my heart a voice shouted Michael's name...and was not answered. My hand went to my heart, and I leaned back against the wall behind me for support. The sheriff showed me Michael's work ID, and began to explain what happened briefly. The next thing I remember is sitting on the couch, the three older children glued to me as close as they could get. One of them said "I wish Daddy was here" and I think I replied "me too." The sheriff explained that they had the man in custody who had run over my husband. BP2 said "Mom, shouldn't we go down to the jail and tell that man about Jesus?".
Most of the rest of that day is a blur. So much had to be done. When I had leaned against the wall after hearing that Michael was dead, I had leaned right into the Father's arms...and He carried me from then on. Many loving people surrounded us...even some that we had broken fellowship with for one reason and another--somehow death brings perspective to these sorts of things.
As the weeks and months passed, though, all of us began to realize that we were the only ones who were surprised about Michael's death. It appeared that for some time Michael had known his time on earth was limited. The first clue was when GP1 told me, during the preparations for the funeral, that he had recently reminded her that when he died he didn't want to be taken to the cemetery in a hearse. He wanted a blue pickup to carry him to his body's final resting place. Although spoken in a joking tone of voice, we knew he was serious...he often joked about that which was most important to him. The next clue was the life insurance. For many years we had been so poor that Michael carried the least amount possible in order to save the deduction from his paycheck for food and necessities. Yet three months before, during the annual reevaluation of life insurance offered by his company, he had taken out extra--and made sure that it was double indemnity life insurance.
Two weeks after his death and funeral, I finally forced myself to begin dealing with his belongings. I began one night by simply picking up his wallet, laying on his dresser by my bed, and flipping through it. I was instantly intrigued to find a folded sheet of notebook paper with my name written on the outside. Hesitantly I lifted it out and opened it. There, in precious simplicity, was a letter he had written over a year before.
To my wonderful, loving lady & wife Esther L. Jones;
I do not expect anything to happen to me, but then, who does? To you I bequeath all my personal and worldly goods as well as any money which might be coming in. Distribute any or all as you wish and please don't hesitate to ask Mom or Dad (mine or yours) for help.
GP1, BP2, GP3 and GP4.--I love you all more than I can say and pray that you will all receive a double portion of the Holy Spirit and of the love of Jesus my Savior. For if you are reading this, I've probably gone home. Don't be angry at God for His reasons are beyond our knowing, and He truly wants only the best for you. Trust Him and rejoice that He loves you more than I do. This sounds a bit dry but I don't know of a better way to put things. Walk always in the light. Sing, dance, rejoice in Jesus.
With all my love,
Michael J. Jones
P.S. Keep the funeral cheap--make it a worship service--lots of tambourines--praise. It ought to be worth it to watch family. By the way--I won't hold you to it, but I like the idea of being taken to the cemetery in a pickup bed. Bye now. I'll see you again sooner than any of us know, in His time.
Oh, Michael.
The funeral was as cheap as seemed to still honor him. It was a worship service, though no one carried a tambourine: we couldn’t bear to. I hope he is able somehow to perceive that God granted his wish for a blue pickup. If this sort of thing is possible where he is, I hope that he has met up with his dad…he went home a couple of years ago, and now their relationship is healed.
But “soon” has not been “soon enough” for any of us. Ten years he has been gone. Our lives have moved on, and I often wonder if he would even recognize us now, but we still miss him. There are huge, gaping holes in the children’s lives: no one sees them but us, yet they are unmistakably there. God has been good, yet there is still the aching. I guess it will always be there a little bit, though we go days and days without thinking of him.
I often cling to Jeremiah 31:3 "For I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with my lovingkindness". God put that verse into our lives too many times to count during those first days, weeks and years after he called Michael home. Sometimes I rejoice in it with singing. Sometimes I hold onto it like the knot at the end of the rope.
Many very cool, fun, exciting things have happened to us that would not have happened had Michael lived. Therefore I have to believe that God knows what He is doing. I personally wouldn't have chosen to trade those things for Michael: but God knew better.
Hang on to that thought when times get tough.
shallbe
_____________________________
SHALLBE’S BATTY BELFRY
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/20/2008 5:01:36 PM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 17768
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Thank you for sharing that Shallbe, your husband was a good man!
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/20/2008 6:23:36 PM
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BlessedAngel1983
Posts: 11780
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From: South Carolina
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((((Esther))))
Thank you so much for sharing with us.
_____________________________
Reflecting with Terri
If you're worried and you can't sleep
Just count your blessings instead of sheep
And you'll fall asleep counting your blessings
AKA AngelInWaiting1983
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/20/2008 6:35:40 PM
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Grace-N-Mercy
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Oh, Esther! That's a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing it so eloquently. Anniversaries are tough (((((Esther)))))
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<-- When did Hollywood go from classy to 'cheap & easy'?
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/20/2008 7:40:23 PM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
Posts: 23494
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From: Here . . . but subject to change; stay tuned
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Esther,
I had forgotten that you said this particular post was coming. I haven't been here, in your thread, for a while; and today I decided to come peak my head in.
Your post was beautiful; thank you for sharing it.
I've marked this Wednesday down on my calendar to remind me to pray for you during that day.
Blessings,
Sharon-Marie
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/20/2008 9:55:51 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2205
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Thanks everyone: I very much appreciate you reading and celebrating with me.
For those following the theological discussion, here are a couple of links that may help you understand how to properly and rightly divide the Word of Truth. One of them is longer and quite didactic. The other is shorter and more general, while still giving the basics.
Short--anybody can read and understand
Longer: for the brave!
I am working on a response to John, but am quite busy just now.
shallbe
_____________________________
SHALLBE’S BATTY BELFRY
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/20/2008 11:08:29 PM
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kj88il
Posts: 2167
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hey, esther. i haven't been on here much lately....but am so glad i stopped by the belfry tonight.
what strength and love it must have taken to share such intimate details. thank you, dear friend, for being so open and reminding us that God's way may be a mystery....but it is always perfect.
Lord, bless my friend, esther. thank You for bringing such a loving soul into my life. i am so glad that she had someone as special as michael to love her. i lift her and her children up to You, Lord. wrap Your arms around them as this anniversary approaches. bless them with Your peace.
and i praise You, Lord, for the wonderous things You have in store for this family. You are, indeed, a loving and faithful God. all these things i pray...in Jesus' name...amen.
_____________________________
Kimberly (aka KJ)
Shifing Gears w/ Kimberly
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/20/2008 11:48:34 PM
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John_O
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Thank you Esther for that story of your husband.
I'll be praying for you on the 24th. Three years ago today M went home.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/20/2008 11:50:22 PM
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BlessedAngel1983
Posts: 11780
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From: South Carolina
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(((John)))
_____________________________
Reflecting with Terri
If you're worried and you can't sleep
Just count your blessings instead of sheep
And you'll fall asleep counting your blessings
AKA AngelInWaiting1983
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/21/2008 12:21:23 AM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3751
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((((Esther, BP, and GPs))))
"Suffering...endurance...character...hope. And hope does not disappoint us." 
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/21/2008 9:08:00 AM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2205
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
Thank you Esther for that story of your husband.
I'll be praying for you on the 24th. Three years ago today M went home.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{John}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
The closer it is, the harder it is. I'm praying for you today--I do so frequently anyway, but today specially.
shallbe
_____________________________
SHALLBE’S BATTY BELFRY
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/22/2008 10:20:29 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2205
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Ok, folks; I am snowed under with homework and figured I'd better get this done before I drown in the reading, practicing, rehearsing, analyzing, driving, listening...yadda.
Pray for me!
quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
God is completely satisfied in Himself as Trinity. There is nothing He lacks, including praise and worship.
quote:
The bible says this is not so. Rev 4:11 tells us that we were created for God's pleasure. Therefore, before He created us He was not satisfied, else why did He create us. If God was totally satisfied in Himself then we would not exist. Man was created to give God pleasure (per Revelation).
Alright: I don’t like using analogy or metaphor when scripture will do, but I want to give you two.
1) I’ve already given you the analogy of the artist. He doesn’t NEED the painting. He WANTS the painting. He OVERFLOWS with the painting. And I’d like to make the point that HE CHOOSES THE MEDIUM, the COLORS, Etc. The painting doesn’t tell the painter that he could have done a better job if he’d chosen umber instead of cobalt. Yet the painter will be reflected in his painting.
2) When you ask The Girl to pick up her room, is it because you NEED her to pick up her room? Aren’t you perfectly capable of picking it up yourself? Will you lack anything you truly need if her room doesn’t get picked up? No. But you still ask her to do it. Why? (my guess is because she will benefit from following your command.)
For what it’s worth the New King James version and the English Standard Version of Rev. 4:11 do not use the phrase “for thy pleasure.”
If, as you suggest, a case can be made that God wanted love and therefore commanded it, then we should be able to find out what else God wants by looking at other commands. So, for instance, what about the commands for animal sacrifice? Yet, we find in Isaiah 1:11-14:
“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to me? says the Lord. I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls or of lambs or goats. When you come to appear before me, who has required this from your hand to trample my courts? Bring no more futile sacrifices. Incense is an abomination to me.”
Moving on.
One of the attributes of God is that He is independent. Here is a section of a condensed version of a book by Wayne Grudem called Systematic Theology on the subject:
“God’s independence means He doesn’t actually need us or anything else in creation for anything. He did not create us because He was lonely or needed fellowship with other people. God has always been, perfectly and completely happy and fulfilled in his personal existence. Paul says, in Acts 17:24-25 “the God Who made the world and everything in it...does not live in temples made by man nor is he served by human hands as though he needed anything, since He himself gives to all mankind life, and breath and everything.”
God always was. He was not created; he never came into being. The Psalmist writes “before the mountains were brought forth or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.” (Psalm 90:2) Therefore God is not dependent on anyone for anything. Indeed, because He is God, He cannot be dependent on anyone or anything. Instead, his entire creation is and must be dependent on him. “For from him and through him and to him are all things.” (Rom. 11:36)
However, though God is completely independent, he also chooses to give us value and significance. He allows us to be important to him! Indeed all creation glorifies and brings him joy. As he says in Isaiah 43:7 “Everyone who is called by my name…I created for my glory.” And Zephaniah says God “ will rejoice” over us “with gladness” and “exalt” over us “with loud singing”. (Zeph. 3:17). Although God does not need us, he allows us to bring joy to his heart—joy that results in loud singing! That is a sign of true significance.”
Here are some more scripture references that will help solidify this understanding of God’s independence.
John 41:11
Psalm 50:10-12
John 17:5 and 24 (specifically references God’s love for Jesus and Jesus’ love for God.)
This brings us to another aspect of God. God is unchangeable. This is well established in scripture, but here are a few references: Malachi 3:6; Psalm 33:11, Numbers 23:19.
If God does not change, then the act of creating the earth and people did not change him. It did not make him happier, less lonely, or more pleased than he already was.
quote:
John_O
1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
If we can't even imagine the good things that God has for us how can we claim to even remotely understand just how great God is (the giver is always greater than the gift, just as the creator is always greater than the creation).
Allow me to quote the entire passage in context:
1 Corinthians 2:6-13
“However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery. The hidden wisdom of God which God ordained for his glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew, for had they known they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, eye has not seen nor ear heard nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love him. But God has revealed them to us through his Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of the man except the spirit of the man which is in him. Even so, no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things, we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” (emphasis added for clarity)
quote:
So He could have instantly recieved greater glory by creating us in heaven with a greater capacity to understand how worthy He is. Earth was not necessary soley for God to be glorified.
Can you list some scriptural references that support the theory that God could have instantly received greater glory by creating us in Heaven? How do we know what brings him the greatest glory? Who would we ask?
quote:
So why is the Earth needed? Because in order to honestly prefer God (love God) we must have the freedom to reject God.
Again I request scripture that supports this idea. Ideally, several scripture references that actually state that the earth was needed so that people would have the freedom to reject God. Short of that, it would be educational to read scriptures that state any of the following: 1)why the earth was needed or 2) that honestly preferring God requires a freedom to reject him or even 3) who rejects God, when and why.
shallbe
_____________________________
SHALLBE’S BATTY BELFRY
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/22/2008 10:22:22 PM
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BlessedAngel1983
Posts: 11780
Joined: 6/8/2007
From: South Carolina
Status: online
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Hey Esther! (((Esther)))
I hope things work out so as not to completely drain you.
_____________________________
Reflecting with Terri
If you're worried and you can't sleep
Just count your blessings instead of sheep
And you'll fall asleep counting your blessings
AKA AngelInWaiting1983
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/23/2008 2:16:21 AM
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LabGuy
Posts: 3309
Joined: 9/22/2007
From: NW Pennsylvania
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I thought of a curious theological question... can angels choose? We know Satan's sin was pride. Were his angels (demons?) also outcasts from Heaven, and did they make a choice to follow him? Or were they already outside and just gathered unto him because he was the most powerful of the lot?
Just weird thoughts that go through my head when I should be asleep.
-Robb
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/23/2008 3:27:05 AM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3751
Joined: 3/30/2007
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Robb, thanks for the interesting thought. Apparently, you aren't the only one that stayed up late tonight!
I did a little searching...
Link #1 (short)
Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry: Angels
^^ That site's okay, but check out one of the passage of scripture this site referenced:
1 Timothy 5:21
In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.
 I thought that was interesting but won't jump to any conclusions because of one verse.
Link #2 (long but interesting)
John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal Divinity, Book 3—Chapter 5, Of The Confirmation Of The Elect Angels, And The Fall Of The Non-Elect
Hey! There's more of that elect and non-elect business.  I had no idea that people talked about angels this way!
Gill does speak to free will in the text (although apparently he's a staunch Calvie). I need to reread this after some sleep. Ever try reading Charles Spurgeon when you're tired?
Thanks for providing me with an endeavor tonight, Robb! Even though I didn't do the best job, I love researching and learning. 
Bonus Link:
Psst! John! Read this...including comment #8 at the bottom... (The rest of you can, too, if you want )
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/23/2008 9:39:53 AM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2205
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
Shemaromans
Bonus Link:
Psst! John! Read this...including comment #8 at the bottom... (The rest of you can, too, if you want )
Wow.
That was confusing! Lots of names dropped but not even a hint of scripture. I feel a little like Jonah felt in the VeggieTales movie after Khalil enthuses "You see the whale as half empty, but I see the whale as half full!"
Jonah replies, "I don't know what that means."
Khalil replies "I don't either." Lol!
I suppose that John knew what you meant, Shema; if it pertains to the discussion of scripture here, could you explain how it relates so that those of us who are uneducated concerning such issues can make the connection? Or perhaps it was a response to a private conversation? If so, would it perhaps have been better to communicate it to him by PM? Most of what I read was pretty much sheer heresy, from my standpoint. And just people's opinions, to boot...not something I personally choose to base my eternal salvation or my theology on.
Anyway, I don't hang out at beliefnet. You can believe anything you want to believe over there; Buddha, Allah, Pink Elephants, and it's accepted as "the truth for you".  
~~~shudders~~~
skeery.
Thanks, though, for the links to scriptural explanations for the angels question. I hope to have time to read the longer one at some point.
Wellp...off to memorize some Italian.
You kids have fun: Keep it Christlike. Keep it scriptural.
shallbe
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/23/2008 10:10:55 AM
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WaitingforBoaz
Posts: 4238
Joined: 2/11/2008
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Esther are you taking Italian as a foreign language or memorizing lyrics?
I "taught" my kids Italian when we homeschooled.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/23/2008 10:40:09 AM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2205
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WaitingforBoaz
Esther are you taking Italian as a foreign language or memorizing lyrics?
I "taught" my kids Italian when we homeschooled.
Memorizing lyrics. One of the privileges I have this semester is to play the part of the The Principessa in Puccini's Suor Angelica.
shallbe
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