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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/23/2008 10:42:21 AM
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John_O
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ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
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ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
God is completely satisfied in Himself as Trinity. There is nothing He lacks, including praise and worship.
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The bible says this is not so. Rev 4:11 tells us that we were created for God's pleasure. Therefore, before He created us He was not satisfied, else why did He create us. If God was totally satisfied in Himself then we would not exist. Man was created to give God pleasure (per Revelation).
Alright: I don’t like using analogy or metaphor when scripture will do, but I want to give you two.
1) I’ve already given you the analogy of the artist. He doesn’t NEED the painting. He WANTS the painting. He OVERFLOWS with the painting. And I’d like to make the point that HE CHOOSES THE MEDIUM, the COLORS, Etc. The painting doesn’t tell the painter that he could have done a better job if he’d chosen umber instead of cobalt. Yet the painter will be reflected in his painting.
Yes. The painter paints because he WANTS to paint. He doesn't NEED the painting but the painting satisfies a want in him. Likewise God doesn't NEED us. He's God, He doesn't need anything. But He wanted us, so He created us, for His pleasure.
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2) When you ask The Girl to pick up her room, is it because you NEED her to pick up her room? Aren’t you perfectly capable of picking it up yourself? Will you lack anything you truly need if her room doesn’t get picked up? No. But you still ask her to do it. Why? (my guess is because she will benefit from following your command.)
Why? Because I want her to clean it up. Of course this analogy doesn't quite ring true as I do not hav ethe total control that God has or that the painter has. But it still comes down to want.
Note that I never said God NEEDs anything.
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For what it’s worth the New King James version and the English Standard Version of Rev. 4:11 do not use the phrase “for thy pleasure.”
And yet many other reputable versions do. (I went on a wonderfully entertaining foray into the world of textual criticism here but haven't had the time to really dig in. Yet another thing on my to do list I guess)
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If, as you suggest, a case can be made that God wanted love and therefore commanded it, then we should be able to find out what else God wants by looking at other commands. So, for instance, what about the commands for animal sacrifice? Yet, we find in Isaiah 1:11-14:
“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to me? says the Lord. I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls or of lambs or goats. When you come to appear before me, who has required this from your hand to trample my courts? Bring no more futile sacrifices. Incense is an abomination to me.”
Yet we know from scripture that He commanded animal sacrifice earlier. Just as He commands love. However, there is no scripture that says "Stop bringing your love to me" The Isaiah scripture is from a time when Israel was going through the motions of worship but not actually worshipping. The sacrifice wasn't acceptable because it wasn't sincere.
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One of the attributes of God is that He is independent. Here is a section of a condensed version of a book by Wayne Grudem called Systematic Theology on the subject:
“God’s independence means He doesn’t actually need us or anything else in creation for anything. He did not create us because He was lonely or needed fellowship with other people. God has always been, perfectly and completely happy and fulfilled in his personal existence. Paul says, in Acts 17:24-25 “the God Who made the world and everything in it...does not live in temples made by man nor is he served by human hands as though he needed anything, since He himself gives to all mankind life, and breath and everything.”
God always was. He was not created; he never came into being. The Psalmist writes “before the mountains were brought forth or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.” (Psalm 90:2) Therefore God is not dependent on anyone for anything. Indeed, because He is God, He cannot be dependent on anyone or anything. Instead, his entire creation is and must be dependent on him. “For from him and through him and to him are all things.” (Rom. 11:36)
However, though God is completely independent, he also chooses to give us value and significance. He allows us to be important to him! Indeed all creation glorifies and brings him joy. As he says in Isaiah 43:7 “Everyone who is called by my name…I created for my glory.” And Zephaniah says God “ will rejoice” over us “with gladness” and “exalt” over us “with loud singing”. (Zeph. 3:17). Although God does not need us, he allows us to bring joy to his heart—joy that results in loud singing! That is a sign of true significance.”
I see nothing here to diasgree with. I never said God NEEDS anything. I said He Wants. We were created for His pleasure. Therefore before we were created he was not recieving that exact pleasure. (Of course this leads into a discussion on the nature of time and God's standing outside of it. Is there really a "before" to any action to God?)
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Here are some more scripture references that will help solidify this understanding of God’s independence.
John 41:11
Psalm 50:10-12
John 17:5 and 24 (specifically references God’s love for Jesus and Jesus’ love for God.)
None of these speak to whether God want's anything. Of course God is independant, He's God. BTW what's the first reference supposed to be?
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This brings us to another aspect of God. God is unchangeable. This is well established in scripture, but here are a few references: Malachi 3:6; Psalm 33:11, Numbers 23:19.
If God does not change, then the act of creating the earth and people did not change him. It did not make him happier, less lonely, or more pleased than he already was.
Does God think? I believe He does (Jer 29:11). Does he talk? Yep. So while He doesn't change, He is also not static. He is not a stone but He is a living being. (this gets into a discussion of God changing his mind which would take us well afield of where we need to be). I never said the act of creating chnaged Him. I said it gave Him what He wanted. Huge difference.
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John_O
1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
If we can't even imagine the good things that God has for us how can we claim to even remotely understand just how great God is (the giver is always greater than the gift, just as the creator is always greater than the creation).
Allow me to quote the entire passage in context:
1 Corinthians 2:6-13
“However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery. The hidden wisdom of God which God ordained for his glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew, for had they known they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, eye has not seen nor ear heard nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love him. But God has revealed them to us through his Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of the man except the spirit of the man which is in him. Even so, no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things, we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” (emphasis added for clarity)
1 Cor 13:9-12 Now we see in part.....
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So He could have instantly recieved greater glory by creating us in heaven with a greater capacity to understand how worthy He is. Earth was not necessary soley for God to be glorified.
Can you list some scriptural references that support the theory that God could have instantly received greater glory by creating us in Heaven? How do we know what brings him the greatest glory? Who would we ask?
I have no scripture references at this time. I do know that God is God and can do anything. So I cannot exclude this possiblity from His abilities. I guess we'll ask Him when we get home.
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So why is the Earth needed? Because in order to honestly prefer God (love God) we must have the freedom to reject God.
Again I request scripture that supports this idea. Ideally, several scripture references that actually state that the earth was needed so that people would have the freedom to reject God. Short of that, it would be educational to read scriptures that state any of the following: 1)why the earth was needed or 2) that honestly preferring God requires a freedom to reject him or even 3) who rejects God, when and why.
I'll return to this later.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/23/2008 10:45:39 AM
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FunBetty
Posts: 7169
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dr Pepper Country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
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ORIGINAL: WaitingforBoaz
Esther are you taking Italian as a foreign language or memorizing lyrics?
I "taught" my kids Italian when we homeschooled.
Memorizing lyrics. One of the privileges I have this semester is to play the part of the The Principessa in Puccini's Suor Angelica.
shallbe
Aaaaaaahhh memorizing lyrics! The best thing that helped me was having a rehearsal CD in my car (in seminary I was a delivery driver-- lots of car time). I haven't heard of that work from Puccini, though...
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Fun Betty's Therapy Centre and Cheesecake and Cookie Shoppe
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/23/2008 12:08:06 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
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FB, it's a part of a triptych. Gianni Schicci is one of the others and I don't know what the third is. I do have a rehearsal CD, but actual Opera is a tad different, I'm discovering, than just singing one aria, or one recitative plus an aria. I need to get the words themselves under my tongue before the rehearsal CD is going to help a lot.
shallbe
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/23/2008 12:27:28 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3873
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
FB, it's a part of a triptych. Gianni Schicci is one of the others and I don't know what the third is. I do have a rehearsal CD, but actual Opera is a tad different, I'm discovering, than just singing one aria, or one recitative plus an aria. I need to get the words themselves under my tongue before the rehearsal CD is going to help a lot.
shallbe
Gianni Schicci!!
"O Mio Babino Caro" 
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/23/2008 12:36:58 PM
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shemaromans
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I suppose that John knew what you meant, Shema; if it pertains to the discussion of scripture here, could you explain how it relates so that those of us who are uneducated concerning such issues can make the connection? Or perhaps it was a response to a private conversation? If so, would it perhaps have been better to communicate it to him by PM? Most of what I read was pretty much sheer heresy, from my standpoint. And just people's opinions, to boot...not something I personally choose to base my eternal salvation or my theology on.
What stands out to me about the original analysis by the author between Pelagius and Augustine and particularly response #8 is pretty much what you mentioned. No mention of scripture but instead a humanistic approach to doctrine: "enhanced their humanity," "not fallen but evolving," "mature postmodern people," "progressive Christianity," and "a postmodern Christian humanism"
It was a reminder to me to let the Bible define doctrine and not self, man, or the world.
Sorry, Esther. I posted the link for everyone, but thought that John would enjoy reading it. He came to mind first. Would you like for me to remove the link?
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/23/2008 2:42:16 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
quote:
I suppose that John knew what you meant, Shema; if it pertains to the discussion of scripture here, could you explain how it relates so that those of us who are uneducated concerning such issues can make the connection? Or perhaps it was a response to a private conversation? If so, would it perhaps have been better to communicate it to him by PM? Most of what I read was pretty much sheer heresy, from my standpoint. And just people's opinions, to boot...not something I personally choose to base my eternal salvation or my theology on.
What stands out to me about the original analysis by the author between Pelagius and Augustine and particularly response #8 is pretty much what you mentioned. No mention of scripture but instead a humanistic approach to doctrine: "enhanced their humanity," "not fallen but evolving," "mature postmodern people," "progressive Christianity," and "a postmodern Christian humanism"
It was a reminder to me to let the Bible define doctrine and not self, man, or the world.
Sorry, Esther. I posted the link for everyone, but thought that John would enjoy reading it. He came to mind first. Would you like for me to remove the link?
No, no...especially now that you've explained it. I just wasn't sure what the connection was. And...briefly, but VERY briefly...I wondered a little about YOU, LOL!
And I agree heartily. For one thing, you can't marry Pelagius and Augustine. In addition to the fact that the marriage would only be recognized in California, both have major flaws in their theology.
But for another, WE don't get to tell God what His word means. WE don't get to decide what best blesses and glorifies God.
God gets to tell us what His word means. God decides for himself what most glorifies himself, and He carries out.
It's best if we cooperate, of course, but if we don't it won't keep him from getting all the glory He deserves.
Thank God.
Carry on, children. I'm going to go teach music.
RE: O Mio Babbino Caro
We have a couple sopranos at school who can carry it off vocally. Now if we can just get them to act!
shallbe
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/23/2008 2:44:20 PM
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AngelInWaiting1983
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Hey Esther! How are you this wonderful fall day?
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Reflecting with Terri
Dance like no one is watching. If they are, who cares!
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/23/2008 3:14:44 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
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I'm a dramatic mezzo, thank-you-very-much and I love it.
I think that's got to be an A or Ab that it hits. Not sure. I'll try to get a glance at the score: I'm not doing Gianni...only Suor.
Terri: I'm fine, but headed to work. I did get all my homework except practicing conducting done. I'll have time to work on that here in a little bit.
shallbe
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/23/2008 3:17:36 PM
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AngelInWaiting1983
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Well at least you may be able to relax a bit when you get home.
_____________________________
Reflecting with Terri
Dance like no one is watching. If they are, who cares!
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/23/2008 9:53:26 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
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Oh, good. I'm glad you feel that way, and I'm sure Shema is too. If you HAD liked it, that would have been problematical.
I thought it was a very good example, however, of what can happen when scripture is not our absolute measuring stick. The drift into heresy just gets farther and farther from shore...
sad.
shallbe
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/24/2008 9:53:35 AM
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John_O
Posts: 8028
Joined: 9/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
Oh, good. I'm glad you feel that way, and I'm sure Shema is too. If you HAD liked it, that would have been problematical.
I thought it was a very good example, however, of what can happen when scripture is not our absolute measuring stick. The drift into heresy just gets farther and farther from shore...
sad.
shallbe
You, Shema and I may have some interpretational differences but heresy is heresy and almost everything out of Spong's mouth has been heresy. I won't even read his writing. (shivers)
Praying for you today.
(((Esther)))
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/24/2008 10:23:13 AM
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WaitingforBoaz
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{{{{{{{{Esther}}}}}}}}
Ephesians 3: 14-21
Colossians 1 9-12
Praying - Blessings
Nadine
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"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a mans character, give him power" - Abraham Lincoln
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/24/2008 1:27:47 PM
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mutinywxgirl
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Praying Esther!
_____________________________
When blood and water hit the ground.
Walls we couldn't move came crashing down.
We were free and made alive.
The day true love died. The day true love died.
Lisa is happy THE ROWDIES ARE BACK!
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/24/2008 1:50:16 PM
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joy2give2u
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shallbe........
I want to post something profound or full of hope for you today........
I am sitting here trying to think of something to say........
I try to imagine what you might be feeling, to put myself in your shoes.....but I can't because I have never been in your shoes........and as far as imagining the emotions I don't want too.......because deep down I know no matter how painful it was to lose my father, no matter how much it hurt, losing a spouse would be far more painful.........far more painful then what I want to try and imagine.
I lost someone who was a big part of my past and my present but he was not a part of my future. You lost a part of your future as well......I can not imagine what that feel like.
10 years seems so long yet so short..........
How do we reach out and comfort you? How do we give you hope in the future?
I don't know......maybe just acknowledging how hard these last 10 years must have been..........recognizing how far you have traveled and how much we appreciate the wisdom and comfort you bring to us through your experiences.
God promises he will use every bad thing in our lives to teach, help, and encourage others while building in us a strength of character which stands the test of time.
10 years you have stood the test of time and in it you have become the woman you are today...... a woman who's strengths are very visible to anyone who reads your post.
Please know that I am thinking about you today and as I lift you up in prayer I thank the Lord for the testimony of your life speaking to us today and tomorrow.
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Transformation happens NOT when we get through scripture BUT when scripture gets through Us
My Smiles
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/24/2008 2:28:42 PM
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Tinkerbell_
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Lots and lots of huggles coming towards you and your family, Esther. 
*HUGGLES*
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/24/2008 4:25:48 PM
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WalkingwithHim2
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
Lots and lots of huggles coming towards you and your family, Esther.
*HUGGLES*
Ditto
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Jesus saves the soul not necessarily the brain
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/24/2008 4:27:07 PM
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AngelInWaiting1983
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Esther all I can say is that I LOVE YOU! You are such a wonderful person and i'm glad you are in my life. *huggles*
_____________________________
Reflecting with Terri
Dance like no one is watching. If they are, who cares!
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/24/2008 5:34:11 PM
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LabGuy
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From: NW Pennsylvania
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Hug for you Esther...
(((((Esther)))))
-Robb
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RE: Besiderself's Batty Belfry - 9/24/2008 6:46:23 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
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Awwwwww. I haven't cried all day, nor even wanted to, but I come on here and everybody is here giving me hugs and writing sweet things, and a tear comes to my eye!
Well, you know it HAS been ten years. Last year at this time I was grieving big-time: but it was connected with a big life-event that wasn't "supposed" to happen to me as a single mom! Most years, the day passes and sometimes I don't even notice. This year, being the 10th, of course I noticed.
But the day was good: I'm not really emotional and the only extra thing I've done to commemorate it was to call my MIL and chat her up about her recent trip to Alaska. I didn't mention what day it was: I have no idea whether she was aware of it or not.
Thank y'all so much for thinking of me. I don't know if the kids have noticed: I don't usually mention if they don't, but you might speak a prayer for them as well...
Geez I love this place...
shallbe
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