RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (Full Version)

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drmark -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/9/2008 12:41:24 PM)

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For example, if one believer believes in original sin and another does not, yet both claim to have the mind of Christ, their world views will be drastically different, but who has the Biblical world view
I'm sorry, Doug, but your assumption is faulty. If belief in Original sin is non-essential Christian doctrine, then two Believers who hold differing views on this issue do NOT have "drastically different worldviews"! They have a difference of opinion regarding human-derived doctrines.



DougHorton -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/9/2008 1:00:27 PM)

Whether or not you count original sin as non-essential doctrine or a human-derived doctrine is totally irrelevant. Would you please stop bringing that up?

A Moslem has a world view with NO essential Christian doctrine.
A Communist has a world view with NO essential Christian doctrine.
A Buddhist has a world view with NO essential Christian doctrine.

The essentiality of any doctrine to Christianity is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to determining a person's world view.

To the case in point -- two people can be believers, however the one who believes in original sin, total depravity, would see humanity totally different than the person, who does not believe in original sin.



drmark -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/9/2008 1:15:38 PM)

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Whether or not you count original sin as non-essential doctrine or a human-derived doctrine is totally irrelevant. Would you please stop bringing that up?
The fact that you are incapable of distinguishing relevant factors involved in worldview formation shows me that this discussion is fruitless. As I've said before, a true Biblical worldview must be based on essential Christian doctrine or it's not true!

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The essentiality of any doctrine to Christianity is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to determining a person's world view.
But that is NOT the point of the OP, is it! I thought this thread was about the relation of Biblical worldview to sanctification. Both are Christian concepts, right? We are Christians posting on a Christian discussion forum, right? What do Moslems, communists, and Buddhists care about Biblical-based sanctification?

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To the case in point -- two people can be believers, however the one who believes in original sin, total depravity, would see humanity totally different than the person, who does not believe in original sin.
Please explain how two God-fearing, Bible-believing, Spirit-led Christians see humanity in "totally different" ways. You are flat out wrong, Doug!



DougHorton -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/9/2008 3:05:58 PM)

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ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Whether or not you count original sin as non-essential doctrine or a human-derived doctrine is totally irrelevant. Would you please stop bringing that up?
The fact that you are incapable of distinguishing relevant factors involved in worldview formation shows me that this discussion is fruitless. As I've said before, a true Biblical worldview must be based on essential Christian doctrine or it's not true!


You are right, this discussion is fruitless.

I totally agree that a Biblical world view must be based on Christian doctrine. However, you seem to be blind to the fact that you and I have totally different world views, even though we probably agree on essential Christian doctrine. We disagree on nonessential Christian doctrine. Therefore, our world views are formulated from non-essential doctrine.

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The essentiality of any doctrine to Christianity is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to determining a person's world view.
But that is NOT the point of the OP, is it! I thought this thread was about the relation of Biblical worldview to sanctification. Both are Christian concepts, right? We are Christians posting on a Christian discussion forum, right? What do Moslems, communists, and Buddhists care about Biblical-based sanctification?


You are telling me what I meant in my own OP? Go look up the definition of world view and please stop telling me I have wrong definitions.

I am NOT saying a person's doctrine does not define their world view. I am saying that the essentiality of the doctrine is totally irrelevant. Moslems, Communists and Buddhists all have a world view, which disproves your insistence that a world view depends on correct Christian doctrine.

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To the case in point -- two people can be believers, however the one who believes in original sin, total depravity, would see humanity totally different than the person, who does not believe in original sin.
Please explain how two God-fearing, Bible-believing, Spirit-led Christians see humanity in "totally different" ways. You are flat out wrong, Doug!



LOL -- That's a good one. How can "two God-fearing, Bible-believing, Spirit-led Christians see humanity in "totally different" ways"? Well, your very next statement is...

"You are flat out wrong, Doug!"

I guess you answered your own question.

Now what the OP is about is whether or not sanctification is the same as a Biblical world view.



drmark -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/9/2008 3:45:51 PM)

Well, perhaps you can find someone else to fruitlessly debate, Doug. I thought the OP was about Biblical worldview not about relativistic mumbo-jumbo and redefining terms.



Bluethread -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/11/2008 7:28:12 PM)

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ORIGINAL: drmark

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ORIGINAL: Bluethread

That is my problem with people equating the "christian" or "reform" worldview with the biblical world view. Even those who refer to themselves in such terms do not always agree on a world view.


Would you please give us an example of a Biblical worldview that is not held by a spirit-filled Believer. Then I respectfully request you follow that example with one of a Christian worldview that is not supported by Scripture. When you are unable to do this, then you must admit that the Christian worldview equates with the Biblical worldview!


Some who call themselves christian and spirit filled believe that we should voluntarily handle poisonous snakes and consume poisonous substances, because Paul tells us that some will do such things and not be harmed. Several Scriptures tell us not to act presumptiously and I believe, this is gives us the biblical world view that Yeshua sums up by quoting the Tanach to Ha Satan, You shall not tempt Adonai Elohiem. Thus, we have an example of a world view of professed christians that is not supported by Scripture.



drmark -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/11/2008 7:33:35 PM)

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Thus, we have an example of a world view of professed christians that is not supported by Scripture.
No, Bluethread, we have an example of differing human opinions regarding non-essential Christian doctrine. You're becoming as confused as Doug regarding the correct definition and application of "worldview".



Bluethread -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/11/2008 7:42:09 PM)

You say it is doctrine. The snakehandlers would say that the world is subject to their view of faith. Thus their world view is faith always trumps the law of natural consequences.



drmark -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/12/2008 10:28:20 AM)

If that was indeed their "worldview", would they not be walking in front of traffic, rejecting man's healthcare, and saving money by not buying clothes for their growing children? It's not a "worldview" if it is not applicable to the entire world in which they live!



Bluethread -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/12/2008 12:03:06 PM)

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ORIGINAL: drmark

If that was indeed their "worldview", would they not be walking in front of traffic, rejecting man's healthcare, and saving money by not buying clothes for their growing children? It's not a "worldview" if it is not applicable to the entire world in which they live!


To a certain extent, I'm not sure some of them would not do those things. That said, I'm pretty sure most people who follow in the Judeo/Christian tradition would like to think of themselves as seeing thing from the biblical world view. Also, I am just as sure that few of us is perfectly consistant in oue world view.

A perfect example is the last fool theory in economics. That is, people will continue to invest in a stock without regard to return on investment hoping that there is at least one more person who will by it from them for a little bit more, hoping they will not be the last fool to buy the stock at a price no one else will pay. Now, practically everybody thinks that this behavior is out of line with a proper view of economics, but people still act this way. Most stocks sell for much more than the sum of their expected return on investment. As the old saying goes, "Hope springs eternal."



drmark -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/12/2008 12:45:09 PM)

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To a certain extent, I'm not sure some of them would not do those things. That said, I'm pretty sure most people who follow in the Judeo/Christian tradition would like to think of themselves as seeing thing from the biblical world view. Also, I am just as sure that few of us is perfectly consistant in oue world view.
These are points well taken, Bt. However, "following in the J/C tradition" must be about how God sees us, not how we may be misperceiving our inconsistent worldview. I guess that the message I tried to get across earlier without much success.



Bluethread -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/12/2008 4:05:40 PM)

Just to clarify, I would say that the Judeo/Christian tradition is not necessarily the biblical world view. It is just a communal attempt to determine what is the bibical worldview. After all, Ha Torah(The Word) became flesh and dwelt among us and does any of us really see the world from His viewpoint.



galadriel2 -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/12/2008 4:12:04 PM)

I think your response, DougHorton, is excellent. I think sanctification is an aspect of the Christian life that is the result of the nature of God's grace acting upon the individual who is justified. Sanctification and a Biblical worldview go hand in hand and grow together.

God bless you abundantly,
Galadriel2



galadriel2 -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/12/2008 4:20:36 PM)

Just a quick reply to drmark....original sin is a key and foundational doctrine: 'For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...and are justified freely by His grace'. Paul is teaching here that all of mankind sinned when Adam sinned. In the same way, all who believe are justified and declred to have obeyed when Christ obeyed all of the law. Paul goes over this in Romans chapter 5. You can't really understand being united to Christ unless you first understand how it is that man is united to Adam. This lack of understanding, then, starts to show up in Christian living. It is harder to maintain unity with other believers when you don't understand as well as you should the common salvation that we all share in. It becomes more difficult to rejoice in trials because you won't understand as well what they signifiy - that you are in Christ and on your way to heaven and that God is treating you as a son....etc., etc.. You aren't going to be able to entrust yourself to Christ, who is the Savior, if you don't first understand something of having sinned 'in Adam' - at least the bare minimum that you are a helpless sinner before a holy God in need of some way to be reconciled to Him.

God bless all abundantly,
Galadriel2



drmark -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/12/2008 4:41:06 PM)

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Just a quick reply to drmark....original sin is a key and foundational doctrine
Well, I guess you might say you're preaching to the choir, galadriel. I am a firm proponent that "original sin" is a foundational doctrine of Christianity. It was actually DougHorton who used the hypothetical case of two Believers differing on the issue of Original Sin. If both of these persons are truly born-again Christians, then they have different opinions on non-essential doctrine, not drastically disparate worldviews.



Bluethread -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/12/2008 5:07:38 PM)

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ORIGINAL: galadriel2

I think your response, DougHorton, is excellent. I think sanctification is an aspect of the Christian life that is the result of the nature of God's grace acting upon the individual who is justified. Sanctification and a Biblical worldview go hand in hand and grow together.

God bless you abundantly,
Galadriel2


I agree, but I would clarify that one does not necessarily recieve the biblical world view at salvation. As one grows ones world view gets closer to the biblical world view. I clarify since ther are some who hold that one would recieve the biblical world view at salvation.



drmark -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/13/2008 8:11:02 PM)

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I agree, but I would clarify that one does not necessarily recieve the biblical world view at salvation.
Indeed, one receives the Holy Spirit at initial sanctification (salvation). But the true Biblical worldview can only be appropriated by and through the Holy Spirit, so the two definitely go hand-in-hand. I'm much less convinced about this concept of "growing together". I do not see how growth in grace can occur without a sanctified life fully committed to the Biblical worldview.



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