Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (Full Version)

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DougHorton -> Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (5/29/2008 2:32:09 PM)

I was sent an email asking, "What do you think is a definition of Biblical world view? What is the difference between this and sanctification?"

I responded off the top of my head, but was wondering how some of you would have answered.

Here is the answer I sent back:
"Sanctification is the process of learning to live as God wants us to. It begins when you are set apart for Christ and continues until you die.

"A Biblical world view is looking at the world and interpreting events from God's point of view. For a Reformed Christian, that means seeing the hand of God in everything and seeing Mankind's best acts as falling short of righteousness.

"They are not the same, but closely related. The world view is a point of view, while sanctification is a process. We can come much closer to having a Biblical world view long before we get very far in sanctification. Sanctification is dependent on a Biblical world view."

Now I know some of you will disagree, but let's be civil in our discussion. Feel free to discuss differing ideas, but remember that this is not a debate.




drmark -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (5/29/2008 3:22:39 PM)

Doug, should we clarify different aspects or terminolgies for sanctification? Many non-Reformed Christians readily identify initial, entire, and progressive sanctification as distinctive, yet related, concepts. Perhaps THIS ARTICLE helps to show some of those nuances. Otherwise, I would just simply say that all sanctified believers have a Biblical worldview, but not everyone with a Biblical worldview is sanctified.




DougHorton -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (5/29/2008 5:56:14 PM)

Thanks Mark, great summary of terms. I'll save that in my favorites.

Meanwhile, here is the definition of Sanctification from Baker's.

Yes, I know there are different definitions, and I know our RC friends will have another definition. I have since found out that this question arose from a book by George Barna, who was "talking about things like reading the Bible, obedience and trusting God. It just sounds more like discipleship then having a world view."

I tend to agree with my questioner. A Mormon or Jehovah's Witness could do these disciplines and not have a Biblical world view.




drmark -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (5/29/2008 10:51:32 PM)

quote:

A Mormon or Jehovah's Witness could do these disciplines and not have a Biblical world view.
Well, an unsaved person is by definition unsanctifed.




DougHorton -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (5/30/2008 1:33:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

A Mormon or Jehovah's Witness could do these disciplines and not have a Biblical world view.
Well, an unsaved person is by definition unsanctifed.


You obviously did not read the definition in Baker's dictionary. Of course, I understand what you mean, but Judas and Pharaoh were set apart to fulfill their parts in God's plan, and thus "sanctified".

But yes, these practices will never lead to sanctification in and of themselves. Nor will they lead to a Biblical world view, which is what Barna is recommending. For example, why can two Christians paractice these things, but one be an Armenian and the other a Lutheran, both with very different world views? A world view is learned through doctrine.




drmark -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (5/31/2008 9:09:10 AM)

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You obviously did not read the definition in Baker's dictionary.
I most certainly did read it - that doesn't mean I agree with that particular application in the context of your OP. Nor would I expect Rev Baker to consider heretics to have a Biblical worldview!

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For example, why can two Christians paractice these things, but one be an Armenian and the other a Lutheran, both with very different world views?
What single aspect of essential Christian doctrine is not shared by a Lutheran and a Wesleyan/Arminian which would lead them to "very different worldviews"? I don't see any.




DougHorton -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/2/2008 9:54:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
What single aspect of essential Christian doctrine is not shared by a Lutheran and a Wesleyan/Arminian which would lead them to "very different worldviews"? I don't see any.


Off the top of my head...

1. The possibility of losing one's salvation vs. assurance of salvation.

2. Whether or not piety is required to secure salvation or further sanctification.

3. The role of grace in the believer's life.

There are many aspects that affect someone's point of view.




drmark -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/2/2008 4:41:30 PM)

Differing points of view for non-essential Christian doctrine is NOT the same as forming the basis for very different worldviews! The three issues you raise are much closer in agreement for Calvinists and Arminians than they are for any other Christian doctrinal traditions.




DougHorton -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/2/2008 4:59:15 PM)

No Mark. A person who knows they are assured of salvation has a totally different world view than a person working for salvation. A person who sees the human race as basically evil, tainted by original sin, is quite different from a person who denies original sin.




drmark -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/3/2008 8:40:39 AM)

Well, Doug, I probably agree with you on those two points of contention affecting one's Christian worldview. However, these are NOT points of contention between Lutherans and Arminians! Both doctrinal traditions believe in assurance of salvation by grace as well as original sin leading to total depravity since these are thoroughly Protestant teachings. Do you know any essential Christian doctrine that is not mutually held by Lutherans and Arminians? I can't think of any!




DougHorton -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/3/2008 4:54:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

Do you know any essential Christian doctrine that is not mutually held by Lutherans and Arminians? I can't think of any!

Yes, I can just see Arminians calling for a state church!


Perhaps you'd like a few reads of Luther and Erasmus:
Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will
Luther's Assertion That the Whole Man Is in Bondage
A Review of Luther and Erasmus: Free Will and Salvation

Or read what Lutherans say:

A Review of Luther and Erasmus: Free Will and Salvation]

Hmmm...
quote:

At first glance, Lutheranism might appear to be an amalgamation of Calvinism and Arminianism because, with regard to the five points, it seems to agree with Calvinism on some points and Arminianism on others. We must be careful, however, to look at the underlying principles that motivated the positions. When we do this, we will find that Lutheranism is not in fundamental agreement with the Remonstrants on any of the five points.


Lutheran Church Missouri Synod




DougHorton -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/3/2008 5:19:13 PM)

A few passages quoted from Methodism by Dr. Richard P. Bucher

quote:

It must be pointed out, however, that Methodists are not required to subscribe to these doctrinal standards, and that throughout their history deeds have been more important than creeds, and a holy life more than doctrine. This is the opposite of Lutheranism.

For Methodists tradition, experience, and reason “informs” their reading of the Biblical message. Though Lutherans also value and use Church Tradition, and view reason as a gift of God in interpreting the Biblical text, we would never say that tradition, experience, or reason are a “source” of doctrine that “informs” our understanding of the Bible. For us Scripture must interpret Scripture first, then tradition, reason, and experience can be brought as additional confirmation. The emphasis on experience as a source of doctrine, has made Methodism vulnerable to a crass subjectivism that often leads to serious departures from Biblical doctrine (e.g., the Holiness, Charismatic, and Pentecostal bodies, which originated from Methodism).

The Bible

The United Methodist Church teaches that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, the primary source and criterion for Christian doctrine, and that it contains all that is necessary for salvation. They do not believe the Bible to be inerrant or infallible, as do Missouri Synod Lutherans (See F. Belton Joyner Jr., Being Methodist in the Bible Belt (Louisville: Westminster John Knox Press, 2004), 27.) As Lutherans do, Methodists emphasize a scholarly approach to the Scriptures.

Original Sin

Wesley taught that all human beings inherit Adam’s original sin and the corruption, and, as a result, they are “very far gone from original righteousness” (Articles of Religion, VII). This corruption or depravity is not total, according to Wesley. Wesley taught that, because of God’s prevenient grace, all people have freedom of the will to either choose Christ or reject him. Lutherans and Calvinists on the other hand, teach that as a result of original sin, all people have “lost” original righteousness, and that they are totally unable to contribute anything to their salvation. They do not have freedom of the will.

Salvation

Whereas in Lutheran theology the central doctrine and focus of all our worship and life is justification by grace through faith, for Methodists the central focus has always been holy living and the striving for perfection.

Note that Lutherans teach that neither prayer nor fasting nor abstinence is a means of grace. For us, a means of grace is an objective means through which God gives forgiveness and the strengthening of faith.


We might consider these points minor, but in the past, people have killed over them. I would say that would indicate a significantly different world view.




drmark -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/4/2008 12:06:09 PM)

Well, I guess we will agree to disagree on this one, Doug. I find no essential Christian doctine worth killing someone for!




Bluethread -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/4/2008 2:19:49 PM)

Sanctification as in sanctification for Adonai's service would lead to an increasingly biblical world view over time. However, sanctification in general is the the process of being set apart and can refer to any activity righteous or unrighteous.

Regarding the biblical world view, weather we share that view depends on ones point of departure and what one considers essential doctrine. The phrase "essential Christian doctrine" is a case in point. To replace biblical world view with "essential Christian doctrine" presumes that those who choose to call themselves "Christian" have the only truly biblical world view. Therefore, I would prefer to use the bible to define the biblical world view than than use any particular school of doctrine.




DougHorton -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/4/2008 3:47:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Regarding the biblical world view, weather we share that view depends on ones point of departure and what one considers essential doctrine. The phrase "essential Christian doctrine" is a case in point. To replace biblical world view with "essential Christian doctrine" presumes that those who choose to call themselves "Christian" have the only truly biblical world view. Therefore, I would prefer to use the bible to define the biblical world view than than use any particular school of doctrine.


How you interpret the Bible will be shaped by your "particular school of doctrine." I can see from the way that you word your posts that you and I have differing world views, yet we would both claim they are Biblical. The fact that believers today do not kill over differences in doctrine tells us that our world view is different from the Christians of the Middle Ages, but are we not referring to the same Bible they had?




Bluethread -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/4/2008 7:25:55 PM)

I prefer to discuss philisophical and theological points of departure, rather than historical ones, unless we are talking about the historical context of the Scriptures themselves.




drmark -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/5/2008 12:54:12 PM)

quote:

Yes, I can just see Arminians calling for a state church!
Why do you say this when it was the Reformed Church that demanded to be the "official" state church for centuries in the Low Countries?

quote:

I can see from the way that you word your posts that you and I have differing world views, yet we would both claim they are Biblical.
It seems to me, Doug, that you are confusing the term "worldview" with personal adherence to non-essential doctrine. Just as we need to carefully define sanctification, we must also carefully define worldview. Please share your understanding of this concept.

quote:

The fact that believers today do not kill over differences in doctrine tells us that our world view is different from the Christians of the Middle Ages, but are we not referring to the same Bible they had?
Or it tells us that some "Christians" in the Middle Ages were not really Christians at all.




DougHorton -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/5/2008 2:15:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Yes, I can just see Arminians calling for a state church!
Why do you say this when it was the Reformed Church that demanded to be the "official" state church for centuries in the Low Countries?


It's called rhetoric. Of course the push for state churches came from the Lutherans, because that is part of how they see the world. One of the purposes of the state is to protect the church.

quote:

It seems to me, Doug, that you are confusing the term "worldview" with personal adherence to non-essential doctrine. Just as we need to carefully define sanctification, we must also carefully define worldview. Please share your understanding of this concept.


A person's world view will certainly be related to what they think is essential doctrine. But it will also be shaped by unessential doctrine as well as by totally secular influences.

Definitions of Worldview on the Web




drmark -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/5/2008 2:26:18 PM)

quote:

A person's world view will certainly be related to what they think is essential doctrine. But it will also be shaped by unessential doctrine as well as by totally secular influences.
It seems to me that this understanding of "worldview" is so broadly generalized that it quickly deteriorates to relativistic individualism. I guess I have no further meaningful comments if this is the direction you wish the thread to proceed.

P.S. - sorry I missed your "rhetoric" above. It was a reflection of my inability to separate non-essential Christian doctrine from Biblical worldview.




DougHorton -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/5/2008 5:33:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
It seems to me that this understanding of "worldview" is so broadly generalized that it quickly deteriorates to relativistic individualism.


That's what world view is. I don't define the words. It depends on how the individual/culture see the world and will change. This is why Barna wrote the book -- trying to get Christians to change their world view.




drmark -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/5/2008 10:18:05 PM)

quote:

quote:

it quickly deteriorates to relativistic individualism.
That's what world view is.
No, Doug, this is your (incorrect) definition of "worldview". In fact, worldview is the overall perspective from which one sees and interprets the world. Since a Biblical worldview is based on God's Word, the concept of "individual relativism" is rendered meaningless in a true Christian worldview. Only God's perspective is true, not individual relativism!




DougHorton -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/6/2008 10:19:16 AM)

So which believers have the absolutely true world view?




Bluethread -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/6/2008 2:21:05 PM)

That is my problem with people equating the "christian" or "reform" worldview with the biblical world view. Even those who refer to themselves in such terms do not always agree on a world view. Therefore, I believe, if we are to discuss the biblical world view we need to derive such a view directly from the bible.




drmark -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/6/2008 9:24:36 PM)

quote:

So which believers have the absolutely true world view?
Those who have the mind of Christ (that is, are filled with His Spirit)!

quote:

That is my problem with people equating the "christian" or "reform" worldview with the biblical world view. Even those who refer to themselves in such terms do not always agree on a world view.
Would you please give us an example of a Biblical worldview that is not held by a spirit-filled Believer. Then I respectfully request you follow that example with one of a Christian worldview that is not supported by Scripture. When you are unable to do this, then you must admit that the Christian worldview equates with the Biblical worldview!




DougHorton -> RE: Relation of Biblical world view to sanctification (6/9/2008 12:31:08 PM)

And how do we know who has the mind of Christ (that is, are filled with His Spirit)?

For example, if one believer believes in original sin and another does not, yet both claim to have the mind of Christ, their world views will be drastically different, but who has the Biblical world view?




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