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RE: Trinity's latest sermon - 6/5/2008 6:36:24 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1815
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
Tracy, don't forget that *Africans* and Arabs willingly participated in the slave trade, capturing and selling their fellow "people of color".
Whites don't have a corner on evil. Whites didn't even have a corner on slave trade
I know, the green martians from Mars have the monoply on it. 
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Trinity's latest sermon - 6/5/2008 7:58:58 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3517
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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quote:
The advertisements warned that Clinton's positions concerning "abortion, homosexuality, and the distribution of condoms to teenagers in schools violated Biblical precepts."
I have no problem with this at all.
quote:
Posts: 4123
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
A true Christian would tell the truth.
Yes, America has did black people wrong for 100's of years. They killed millions of us. They enslaved us.
But we are to love our enemies.
A true Christian would show them where G-d is going to avenge them and don't try to do it theirselves.
And, according to Jesus, we are to forgive.
That...would destroy a well constructed structure of hatred.
quote:
Your friend is right. He isn't African American. He should be addressed as he requests.
I don't understand calling people by their race...at all...or their ancestral place of origin. If we all go back far enough we all came from the same place from the same couple...so why divide us into these groups all the time. To me to call yourself african american is totally racist. Or caucasian. Or whatever.
quote:
Do you feel sorry that it happened?
Not anymore than I feel sorry for the Holocaust.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Trinity's latest sermon - 6/5/2008 10:15:49 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1815
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quote:
Tracy, I don't have problem with a statement that millions of black have been oppressed and mistreated, but killed? Any documentation at all or even a specific allegation would help. Otherwise, I'll assume that just came from the heat of the moment or was meant in a figurative way.
Jimbo today I have decided that green martians from Mars did it and that all the history books are wrong. It was a figment of my imagination.
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/black_voices/voices_display.cfm?id=10
""""The Middle Passage
The trans-Atlantic slave trade was the largest movement of people in history. Between 10 and 15 million Africans were forcibly transported across the Atlantic between 1500 and 1900. But this figure grossly understates the actual number of Africans enslaved, killed, or displaced as a result of the slave trade. At least 2 million Africans--10 to 15 percent--died during the infamous "Middle Passage" across the Atlantic. Another 15 to 30 percent died during the march to or confinement along the coast. Altogether, for every 100 slaves who reached the New World, another 40 had died in Africa or during the Middle Passage.
These are the blue martians from Pluto:
The Atlantic slave trade, however, was not the only slave trade within Africa. Nearly as many Africans were exported across the Sahara Desert, the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean from 650 a.d. to 1900 as were shipped across the Atlantic. Islamic traders probably exported 10 million slaves into north Africa, Arabia, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, and India.
I'm gonna stop reading history books because those people are liars.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Trinity's latest sermon - 6/5/2008 10:17:11 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5210
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Yes, America has did black people wrong for 100's of years. They killed millions of us. They enslaved us.
I agree with Jimbofletch on the killing part.
But your reference as to Americans enslaving blacks is just not quite accurage.
Slave who were brought to the States and sold were already enslaved, usually by other blacks in Africa. The Muslim slave traders captured some, but mostly they also bought enslaved blacks from other blacks.
That might be a narrow point, but I think we do need to be accurate.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Trinity's latest sermon - 6/5/2008 10:24:22 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2246
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Tracy, I don't have problem with a statement that millions of black have been oppressed and mistreated, but killed? Any documentation at all or even a specific allegation would help. Otherwise, I'll assume that just came from the heat of the moment or was meant in a figurative way.
Selected Death Tolls for Wars, Massacres and Atrocities Before the 20th Century
Ask and you shall receive!  Scroll down to the slavery section it has numerical estimates from various sources. Even the lower estimates put it in the million person range.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Trinity's latest sermon - 6/5/2008 10:41:18 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2246
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Yes, America has did black people wrong for 100's of years. They killed millions of us. They enslaved us.
I agree with Jimbofletch on the killing part.
But your reference as to Americans enslaving blacks is just not quite accurage.
Slave who were brought to the States and sold were already enslaved, usually by other blacks in Africa. The Muslim slave traders captured some, but mostly they also bought enslaved blacks from other blacks.
That might be a narrow point, but I think we do need to be accurate.
Thsnks
RC
[sarc/on] And when those "already enslaved African people" came to our shores they were freed to enjoy rights as American citizens so we have no contribution to the slave trade whatsoever?
When it comes to history, we can't be selective about what happened or use Adam & Eve's justifications that it was someone else's fault "Africans are responsible for slavery!"
Can we, as Americans, act like Pilate in Matthew 27:24? The blood of those innocents are also on the pages of our history whether we want to admit it or not!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Trinity's latest sermon - 6/5/2008 10:41:48 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5210
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Scroll down to the slavery section it has numerical estimates from various sources. Even the lower estimates put it in the million person range.
I do have my doubts about the numbers, but even at that the largest number of 50% of the total number taken captive were killed mainly by other Africans who were enslaving their fellow Africans.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Trinity's latest sermon - 6/5/2008 10:46:50 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6386
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Can we, as Americans, act like Pilate in Matthew 27:24? The blood of those innocents are also on the pages of our history whether we want to admit it or not!
I think providing stats and information like you provided makes people more likely to face that part history than a museum with mammy and other caricature pictures. The first shocks one into stunned silence, the other - when viewed alone - might only invite joking or amusement.
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RE: Trinity's latest sermon - 6/5/2008 12:41:06 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2246
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Can we, as Americans, act like Pilate in Matthew 27:24? The blood of those innocents are also on the pages of our history whether we want to admit it or not!
I think providing stats and information like you provided makes people more likely to face that part history than a museum with mammy and other caricature pictures. The first shocks one into stunned silence, the other - when viewed alone - might only invite joking or amusement.
Agreed and it reinforces stereotypes as well.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Trinity's latest sermon - 6/5/2008 12:45:14 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2246
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Scroll down to the slavery section it has numerical estimates from various sources. Even the lower estimates put it in the million person range.
I do have my doubts about the numbers, but even at that the largest number of 50% of the total number taken captive were killed mainly by other Africans who were enslaving their fellow Africans.
Thanks
RC
I forgot! Americans (including some of first Presidents, Senators and Congessmen) never actually owned any slaves! How silly of me! [sarc/on] (still)
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Trinity's latest sermon - 6/5/2008 1:05:32 PM
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KatMack
Posts: 972
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Along the Canopy Roads
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I don't think that anyone's trying to say that the early Americans are devoid of blame for the existence of slavery. I think what is being stated is that the blame is shared by many different groups of people... and not ALL of them have pale skin.
--Kat
_____________________________
<-- My sweet blessings.
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RE: Trinity's latest sermon - 6/5/2008 1:50:38 PM
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TomTurn
Posts: 758
Joined: 3/13/2008
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A lot of you sure live in yesterday and as long as you do there will never be a better tomoroow for you
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RE: Trinity's latest sermon - 6/5/2008 1:52:20 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2246
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KatMack
I don't think that anyone's trying to say that the early Americans are devoid of blame for the existence of slavery. I think what is being stated is that the blame is shared by many different groups of people... and not ALL of them have pale skin.
--Kat
Well, I can agree with that statement but I don't understand why that should imply that we share less of the blame for purpetuating that horrid institution just because Africans sold their own people into slavery.
It's like saying the only people to blame in America's addiction to drugs are the one's who grow it in foreign countries. We are just "victims" in that grand conspiracy.
America is the "morally superior" nation in the world, isn't it?
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Trinity's latest sermon - 6/5/2008 2:22:23 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 825
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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I think the point is that the Black Liberation movement wants to lay all the blame for slavery on whites, ignoring the fact that blacks had a major part in capturing and selling their own race into slavery. Neither race was innocent back then, nor were the middle easterners. But we all need to forgive each other and stop carrying this blame game on and on.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: KatMack
I don't think that anyone's trying to say that the early Americans are devoid of blame for the existence of slavery. I think what is being stated is that the blame is shared by many different groups of people... and not ALL of them have pale skin.
--Kat
Well, I can agree with that statement but I don't understand why that should imply that we share less of the blame for purpetuating that horrid institution just because Africans sold their own people into slavery.
It's like saying the only people to blame in America's addiction to drugs are the one's who grow it in foreign countries. We are just "victims" in that grand conspiracy.
America is the "morally superior" nation in the world, isn't it?
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Trinity's latest sermon - 6/5/2008 2:28:40 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3906
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
It's like saying the only people to blame in America's addiction to drugs are the one's who grow it in foreign countries. We are just "victims" in that grand conspiracy.
So are you saying that the families of people addicted to drugs should be able to ask for money from the countries that produce the drugs they use? I know lots of addicts who blame their parents for their addiction. Should their parents pay them because the "victimized" drug user says it was their fault? Should the drug addict's children get the money? What about the addicts who quit using and "bettered" themselves? Do they get reparations, too, even though they are no longer addicts? What about addicts that sell to other addicts? Do they get money and have to pay as well?
I don't think that's a very good analogy.
_____________________________
I'm tired of signatures.
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RE: Trinity's latest sermon - 6/5/2008 2:43:07 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2246
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
It's like saying the only people to blame in America's addiction to drugs are the one's who grow it in foreign countries. We are just "victims" in that grand conspiracy.
So are you saying that the families of people addicted to drugs should be able to ask for money from the countries that produce the drugs they use? I know lots of addicts who blame their parents for their addiction. Should their parents pay them because the "victimized" drug user says it was their fault? Should the drug addict's children get the money? What about the addicts who quit using and "bettered" themselves? Do they get reparations, too, even though they are no longer addicts? What about addicts that sell to other addicts? Do they get money and have to pay as well?
I don't think that's a very good analogy.
An analogy is used to convey the gist of what's being said; not all the particulars. But maybe I should use another one.
My son hits a student in the face because he sees another student doing the same thing. Do I justify his actions because someone else did it too? Does he have less responsibility for what he did because someone else did it too or someone else did it first? My answer is no, he's responsible for his OWN actions not that of his classmate.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Trinity's latest sermon - 6/5/2008 3:26:00 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5210
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
My son hits a student in the face because he sees another student doing the same thing. Do I justify his actions because someone else did it too? Does he have less responsibility for what he did because someone else did it too or someone else did it first? My answer is no, he's responsible for his OWN actions not that of his classmate.
I agree mapachito13, and the same goes for repreations etc. Why do some want to punish some today for error that was committed many generations ago.
Seems kinda dumb and selfish to me.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Trinity's latest sermon - 6/5/2008 3:42:28 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2246
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
My son hits a student in the face because he sees another student doing the same thing. Do I justify his actions because someone else did it too? Does he have less responsibility for what he did because someone else did it too or someone else did it first? My answer is no, he's responsible for his OWN actions not that of his classmate.
I agree mapachito13, and the same goes for repreations etc. Why do some want to punish some today for error that was committed many generations ago.
Seems kinda dumb and selfish to me.
Thanks
RC
I can see the point your trying to make but I disagree with your conclusion but that's OK I know not everyone will see things my way - the "right" way!  [sarc/definitely on]
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Trinity's latest sermon - 6/5/2008 4:41:46 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 825
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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Well said, Kat!
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: KatMack
quote:
Well, I can agree with that statement but I don't understand why that should imply that we share less of the blame for purpetuating that horrid institution just because Africans sold their own people into slavery.
(emphasis mine)
And here is where we disagree. I'm white... very white right now ... and I don't share any blame for American slavery. It was made illegal about 200 years before my birth. I've never owned a slave and never will. I'm not sure if my ancestors owned slaves... I'm guessing not because they were from the Midwest. But even if they did... still not MY fault. I am in no way responsible for what past generations did.
Now, am I responsible for what the next generation does... YOU BET!!! That is why I endeavor to raise my children to see people as the Good Book instructs us.
quote:
Galatians 3:27-29 (NIV)
for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
I have a sneaking suspision that if we keep this up, we will soon be directed to a certain One Stop Thread.
--Kat
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Trinity's latest sermon - 6/5/2008 4:48:25 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2246
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KatMack
Now, am I responsible for what the next generation does... YOU BET!!! That is why I endeavor to raise my children to see people as the Good Book instructs us.
That is admirable how you are teaching your children tolerance. I wish all parents did such.
But if we are responsible for what the next generation does, shouldn't they be righting the wrongs to minorities that have been responsibile for their current situation? Consequences to bad actions don't disappear overnight. There usually are lingering aftereffects.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Trinity's latest sermon - 6/5/2008 4:55:30 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6386
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: KatMack
Now, am I responsible for what the next generation does... YOU BET!!! That is why I endeavor to raise my children to see people as the Good Book instructs us.
That is admirable how you are teaching your children tolerance. I wish all parents did such.
But if we are responsible for what the next generation does, shouldn't they be righting the wrongs to minorities that have been responsibile for their current situation? Consequences to bad actions don't disappear overnight. There usually are lingering aftereffects.
What do you propose, buying land in Africa so their descendents can have their own homeland? No... that's been done. Create a Reservation where they can live apart from the rest of society? No.... that's been tried with disasterous results. Provide one school system so all children have equal opportunity to get an education? Wait... that's been done for the past 44 years (at least in the South).
Aside from treating everyone, regardless of race, creed, or color, as human beings worthy of the same respect, what do you propose we do?
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