RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Theology] >> Christian Doctrine



Message

laura... -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 2:57:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

So some Pentecostals believe that a second work of grace is necessary for Salvation, with a particular gift to prove it, others may think the second work of grace is optional? Or that a variety of gifts would be evident, not just a particular one?

How would that vary from Charismatics?

WOF people believe all that, plus you have to send in money to a ministry?


The Assemblies of God is what I am most familiar with doctrinally. AoG does not believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation. AoG teach that salvation comes by accepting Jesus Christ's work on the cross and his resurrection as atonement for one's sin. Period. They do believe that every believer is given a measure of the Holy Spirit at their time of salvation. Otherwise they could not be saved. They believe that the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit is a second work of grace that is available to all believers. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is to empower believers to walk in holiness and to evangelize. AoG teach that speaking in tongues is the initial physical evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Other pentecostal groups do teach that one has to be baptised in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues or one isn't saved. That is a tenent of Apostolic Pentecostals, who are also oneness and holiness.

Churches of God are pentecostal but they are a lot more independent of each other and the COG on 1st Street will likely have a different take on it all than the COG on 2nd Street.



JimboFletch -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 3:06:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: laura...

Assemblies of God definitely refer to themselves as pentecostal. In their beginnings they were very much holiness in nature--no makeup; women in dresses only; no dancing, movies or card playing. They've long since moved away from that brand of legalism. You can pretty much spot a pentecostal holiness church because they'll usually have "pentecostal" as part of their name. &:)

Around here, there are two distinct flavors of AoG, the old fashioned, legalistic type you described and also the more relaxed. Our big First AoG was accused of not being AoG enough and was in danger of discipline when the pastor resigned to prevent that. He started an independent church and about half of the congregation went with him - it's now larger than to previous AoG.

(I can't explain anything about the "discipline" because I only heard secondhand about from a member of the original church.)



OLEEguacamole -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 3:11:06 PM)

the term pentecostal used to be used more for all who felt what happened in acts during pentecost was still valid for today. the drift away from the term pentecostal to charismatic was i think to be differentiated from the rules based, doctrinally different pentecostal type churches.

wof is a subset of charismatic. wof is really a small deviation from charismatic thought. yes an important deviation, but there is so much in common with wof it often feels and sounds the same to long time charismatics.

as important as some of the false doctrines pointed out today are, it's not the center of what is heard. it's not jumping out to established believers because it's subtle and not heard that much. try telling a wof that their favorite preacher said something wrong doctrinally about Jesus. chances are they haven't heard it. these things are not a big focus in church meetings etc.

for over 40 years i have known many friends and family that are charismatics. some like many of the wof people. some like the elijah list stuff. most of the charismatics i know LOVE reading their bible. but in charsimatic churches preaching does not usually lean toward layering in basic doctrine and bible knowledge. it is geared more toward christian living.

it used to be sunday school was full of doctrine, bible memorizing and knowledge etc but these days sundayschool is more about christian living too and the future generations will not have the same foundation as their fathers and grandfathers.

this is not just a charismatic thing, but it is having a strong impact on the charismatic group IMO.

as for salvation issues, charismatics believe the grace gifts are a bonus so to speak. not salvic. granted some hardcore might wonder if you REALLY loved God if you didn't want that stuff, or think that your walk was like a soda that lacked carbonation, but still, not salvic. keep in mind, the other side has their opinions of the charismatic's walk too.



laura... -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 3:17:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: laura...

Assemblies of God definitely refer to themselves as pentecostal. In their beginnings they were very much holiness in nature--no makeup; women in dresses only; no dancing, movies or card playing. They've long since moved away from that brand of legalism. You can pretty much spot a pentecostal holiness church because they'll usually have "pentecostal" as part of their name. &:)

Around here, there are two distinct flavors of AoG, the old fashioned, legalistic type you described and also the more relaxed. Our big First AoG was accused of not being AoG enough and was in danger of discipline when the pastor resigned to prevent that. He started an independent church and about half of the congregation went with him - it's now larger than to previous AoG.

(I can't explain anything about the "discipline" because I only heard secondhand about from a member of the original church.)


My guess would be, since the pastor left and started an independent church, is that he must have been preaching something contrary to AoG's 10 tenents of faith. That would be about the only way the AoG district or national headquarters would discipline him (outside of moral issues). Unless the "discipline" was coming from that particular church itself.

In my opinion, the Assemblies of God have become very lax in monitoring what the various churches in the Fellowship are teaching. This is why wof and very questionable "revivals" are making such inroads into the AoG.



bluestone -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 6:02:47 PM)

I have an AOG church in town that is running buses to the Florida outpouring. I found out today that another AOG church in town is preaching against it and warning people to keep clear. Weird.



GrahamCracker -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 6:13:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

I have an AOG church in town that is running buses to the Florida outpouring. I found out today that another AOG church in town is preaching against it and warning people to keep clear. Weird.


There are some AOG who subscribe to WOF and certain other doctrines that are considered heretical. From your description, something similar happened to the church of a friend. His pastor was so sold on it that the church was bleeding its loyal longtime members and the pastor seemingly didn't care. He was so convinced that some stuff was of God. My friend was heart broken, because he was a lay leader in the church. But he finally decided to leave.

The church's membership was down over 50%. I don't know what happened after that.

In any event, it's the church's local decision as to whether or not they accept things like that. You can obviously tell because two separate churches of the same denomination come down on different sides of the issue.



manwe -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 7:50:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

I think of these groups as different, but a lot of people lump them together.

I would like to know: what are the differences in these groups?

In particular, I would like to hear from those who are in these groups, although all are welcome to share thoughts, ideas, and theologies.


posting blind...

While every believer can receive the Pentecostal experience of Acts 2:4ff, traditionally Pentecostals stake their roots in the Azusa Street Revival of the early 1900's and also the early Wesleyan-Holiness movement. So their theology is typically more Wesleyan in terms of entire sanctification with a pinch of Reformed soteriology in that salvation is both a process and an event.

Also, Pentecostals are continuationists and believe all the gifts of the Spirit are for today because Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. Pentecostals don't believe the spiritual gifts ceased with the passing of the Apostles (and see "the perfect" in 1 Cor 13 as the Parousia and not the Canon of Scripture) but rather Spiritual gifts (or "ministries" because they are to edify the Church) remain to empower the Church to accomplish its mission in the world - to finish what was started 2000 years ago.

So, for the Pentecostal - the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as seen in Acts 2:4ff. is a charismatic empowerment of the the church and the believer by the Holy Spirit, that gives Christians power to boldly give witness to Jesus in the world - both in word and in deed. Pentecostals believe the primary sign of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues which is both normal and normative (to be expected). Tongues serve primarily to edify and empower the believer (in prayer) and to declare the praises of God and/or speak prophetically (ie., to give discernment in present times) to the Church (with interpretation) in the congregational setting.

Charismatics on the other hand, have their roots in the Charismatic movement that began in 1960 when the late Dennis Bennett, an Episcopalian Priest, announced to his congregation in California, that he had been baptized with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. Controversy ensued and he was summarily asked to leave. He transferred to a church in Burien, Washington and from there began the Charismatic movement which saw literally countless thousands of believers from every major denomination around the world receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues. So, within the Charismatic movement there may be varied theological and liturgical differences, but the unifying factor of the Charismatic movement then, is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues.

The WOF folk are linked to the Charismatic movement but have a stark contrast in theology in that they tend to promote the blessings of God in such a manner that it either overtly or inadvertantly encourages materialism and the avoidance of suffering (a key theme of Biblical Christian living). Their focus is more on money and faith issues that sadly lead to feelings of inadequacy and feelings of inferiority for those whose faith and money making abilities may not measure up.

In my opinion, many of the WOF teachers fit the descriptions we see in 2 Peter 2.

Hope this helps some.



manwe -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 7:53:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: laura...

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: laura...

Assemblies of God definitely refer to themselves as pentecostal. In their beginnings they were very much holiness in nature--no makeup; women in dresses only; no dancing, movies or card playing. They've long since moved away from that brand of legalism. You can pretty much spot a pentecostal holiness church because they'll usually have "pentecostal" as part of their name. &:)

Around here, there are two distinct flavors of AoG, the old fashioned, legalistic type you described and also the more relaxed. Our big First AoG was accused of not being AoG enough and was in danger of discipline when the pastor resigned to prevent that. He started an independent church and about half of the congregation went with him - it's now larger than to previous AoG.

(I can't explain anything about the "discipline" because I only heard secondhand about from a member of the original church.)


My guess would be, since the pastor left and started an independent church, is that he must have been preaching something contrary to AoG's 10 tenents of faith. That would be about the only way the AoG district or national headquarters would discipline him (outside of moral issues). Unless the "discipline" was coming from that particular church itself.

In my opinion, the Assemblies of God have become very lax in monitoring what the various churches in the Fellowship are teaching. This is why wof and very questionable "revivals" are making such inroads into the AoG.


umm that would be the 16 Fundamental Truths (originally formulated to fight the UPC folk - Jesus Only and Spirit Baptism with tongues for Salvation).



drfuss -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 8:03:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: laura...

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: laura...

Assemblies of God definitely refer to themselves as pentecostal. In their beginnings they were very much holiness in nature--no makeup; women in dresses only; no dancing, movies or card playing. They've long since moved away from that brand of legalism. You can pretty much spot a pentecostal holiness church because they'll usually have "pentecostal" as part of their name. &:)

Around here, there are two distinct flavors of AoG, the old fashioned, legalistic type you described and also the more relaxed. Our big First AoG was accused of not being AoG enough and was in danger of discipline when the pastor resigned to prevent that. He started an independent church and about half of the congregation went with him - it's now larger than to previous AoG.

(I can't explain anything about the "discipline" because I only heard secondhand about from a member of the original church.)


My guess would be, since the pastor left and started an independent church, is that he must have been preaching something contrary to AoG's 10 tenents of faith. That would be about the only way the AoG district or national headquarters would discipline him (outside of moral issues). Unless the "discipline" was coming from that particular church itself.

In my opinion, the Assemblies of God have become very lax in monitoring what the various churches in the Fellowship are teaching. This is why wof and very questionable "revivals" are making such inroads into the AoG.


drfuss: I agree. The AoG District Officials don't usually get involved in discipline unless there is a moral issue on the part of the pastor. However, if an AoG church is about to split down the middle, the District is called in by one side or the other, and tries to make peace. In many cases, the District finds another church for the pastor, of course without telling the new church about the previous problems.

I think there is usually a difference between rural and unban churches. My experience mostly has been with unban AoG churches. There is a big generation difference in urban AoG churches. The older people (over 60) tend to be more conservative concerning things like dress codes, make up, movies, etc. The younger people ususally tend to dress modestly, but are very up to date including make up, slacks, etc.

Most AoG churches have gone the contempory music route causing great problems for the older people.

The AoG have also loosened up on doctrine. For example, years ago the AoG churches generally believed a Christian could lose his salvation (Wesleyan Arminian); now the AoG website says a Christian can forfeit his salvation (Reformed Arminian).

A friend of mine went from a Baptist church to an AoG church about eight years ago. Recently he told me he has not heard any preaching at the AoG church about speaking in tongues. He was surprised, since he had been told that speaking in tongues was so important in the AoG.

As the younger people take over, the AoG will become less legal and more modern (like the Charasmatics). This seems to be encouraged by District officials to promote future growth in the AoG.



JesKlu -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/31/2008 11:51:21 AM)

Hello!

Pentecostals are a denominational name, but there are different typres, and I think most of the Pentecostals are Charismatic.

A Charismatic is someone who believes in the gifts of the Spirit, and as some people said on here, the movement transcends denominations. There are charismatic Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans etc...

Thw WoF is charismatic, but they have their own movement too. But there are similarities.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



drfuss -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/31/2008 2:00:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JesKlu

Hello!

Pentecostals are a denominational name, but there are different typres, and I think most of the Pentecostals are Charismatic.

A Charismatic is someone who believes in the gifts of the Spirit, and as some people said on here, the movement transcends denominations. There are charismatic Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans etc...

Thw WoF is charismatic, but they have their own movement too. But there are similarities.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica


drfuss: The only denomination, that I know of, that has pentecostal in its name is the Pentecostal Holiness. I don't think there is another denomination of any significant size that has the word pentecostal in its name. Pentecostal usually describes the type of denomination, not the denomination itself. The largest pentecostal denomination is the Church of God In Christ (COGIC) with the second largest being the Assemblies of God. Not sure, but The Foursquare Gospel may be the third largest denomination.

I agree that all pentecostal churches could be considered charismatic.



JesKlu -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/31/2008 3:10:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole
for over 40 years i have known many friends and family that are charismatics. some like many of the wof people. some like the elijah list stuff. most of the charismatics i know LOVE reading their bible. but in charsimatic churches preaching does not usually lean toward layering in basic doctrine and bible knowledge. it is geared more toward christian living.

it used to be sunday school was full of doctrine, bible memorizing and knowledge etc but these days sundayschool is more about christian living too and the future generations will not have the same foundation as their fathers and grandfathers.


Hello OLEEguacamole!

I agree. The Pentecostal Church I would visit a few times with my friend, their sermons seemed to be entirely on Christian living. I have no problem with that at all, but if that is what they are only preaching about, then I have a problem.

The reason why I have a problem with that is because they start to forget about God's grace and everything, almost, is works oriented. So they make up all these laws on what a Christian can't do, and if you do any of these things that are forbidden, then you are not a Christian.

It is that attitude that I do not like.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



windlover44 -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/31/2008 3:46:16 PM)

I think this is a good thread. I was brought up in a Fundamental faith background, but my Grandmother was definitely Spirit-filled, and I testify to that by her lifestyle. A blood-bought Saint, and walked the walk.
I believe by the grace of God that is why the Holy Spirit can influence my decisions.
Why this? Well, I've tasted what I believe is a well-rounded mixture of Assemblies of God...Charismatic, and Word of Faith. I think what I've learned is "Have we not One God and Father?"...& "It is he who works in us to will and do of His pleasure."
People believe in Pentecost...if we didn't, how could we believe the Bible is true...if we call Pentecost (ACTS 2) a lie, then we call God a liar. If we believe Pentecost, we can have charmisa [which in America if you have charisma you're usually a jubilant person..."The joy of the Lord is my strength."], and living Word of Faith people, well Hebrews 4:12 says "the Word of the Lord is quick, powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, dividing joints and marrow, soul and spirit, and discerning the thoughts and intents of the heart." So, Word of Faith are people who pursue "the Living Word", as I was taught. Combine them properly, wouldn't that just be a living church? And if God didn't raise up things to challenge us and cause us to believe he is real, would we then "all grow unto a mature person, who is one in Christ?" Maybe we're just not looking at the big picture because we aren't accustomed to God doing something new. Well, the book of Isaiah says, "Behold, I will do a new thing...now it springs forth.", and if you're New Testament prone only, Hebrews teaches "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever.", which fully supports a living God doing a new thing in our day, who never changes, for if Christ truly came then He is He who was birthed from the same prophet who proclaimed "a new thing."
If God is God, then he can do anything, and if we understand and move in His love and obedience of His Word, then we are in living faith, and if we have One Lord, we will only have one Teacher, and if the Teacher is right, how can we argue, when we only have One Truth to follow?
Not just maybe he will raise up his bride, I think is the greater question...but the fact that He is preparing her and she is going to shine!



iwillfearnoevil -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (6/2/2008 3:22:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JesKlu
Pentecostals are a denominational name, but there are different typres, and I think most of the Pentecostals are Charismatic.


Someone mentioned this to me in the last couple weeks so i wanted to try to correct a misunderstanding that is apparently prevalent. Pentecostalism is a religious movement within Christianity that places special emphasis on the direct personal experience of God through the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, as shown in the Biblical account of the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2). There can be non-denominational Pentecostal churches however a list of larger denominations includes:

  • Assemblies of God
  • Church of God (Cleveland, TN)
  • Church of God in Christ
  • Church of God of Prophecy
  • Full Gospel Fellowship
  • Intl. Church of the Foursquare Gospel
  • Intl. Pentecostal Holiness Church
  • Pentecostal Church of God
  • Oneness Pentecostal
  • Pentecostal Assemblies of the World
  • United Pentecostal Church Intl.



iwillfearnoevil -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (6/2/2008 3:39:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drfuss
The largest pentecostal denomination is the Church of God In Christ (COGIC) with the second largest being the Assemblies of God. Not sure, but The Foursquare Gospel may be the third largest denomination.


AG is largest denomination altho the term 'cooperative fellowship' is preferred with 283,413 churches worldwide, 57 million adherents worldwide, and 12,311 churches in the US.



JesKlu -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (6/2/2008 4:03:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil

quote:

ORIGINAL: JesKlu
Pentecostals are a denominational name, but there are different typres, and I think most of the Pentecostals are Charismatic.


Someone mentioned this to me in the last couple weeks so i wanted to try to correct a misunderstanding that is apparently prevalent. Pentecostalism is a religious movement within Christianity that places special emphasis on the direct personal experience of God through the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, as shown in the Biblical account of the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2). There can be non-denominational Pentecostal churches however a list of larger denominations includes:

  • Assemblies of God
  • Church of God (Cleveland, TN)
  • Church of God in Christ
  • Church of God of Prophecy
  • Full Gospel Fellowship
  • Intl. Church of the Foursquare Gospel
  • Intl. Pentecostal Holiness Church
  • Pentecostal Church of God
  • Oneness Pentecostal
  • Pentecostal Assemblies of the World
  • United Pentecostal Church Intl.



Hello!

Thanks for the list. I have a friend who attends a Pentecostal Church but she is Romanian and I think her Church is Independant. But it does have Pentecostal on the sign.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (6/8/2008 2:08:46 AM)

I am glad to find this thread, because I am wondering how you would assess the following church: is it charismatic or pentecostal?

* It is a small organization with several churches in the US and other places.
* It started in the early 1900s when the LA Apostolic church split.
* It believes in the trinity.
* It believes that in order to be among the "called," one must be saved, SHOULD be sanctified (as a second definite work of grace), and SHOULD be baptized in the H Spirit with speaking in tongues.
* It believes that Christians do not sin, and if they do, they are no longer saved and are going to hell unless they get resaved.
* Until the '50s, women could not cut their hair, because that was a sin.
* Until the '50s, women could not wear seamless nylons.
* Until the mid-'50s, women had to wear their hair in nets.
* Until the '80s, they had no TVs, as TVs were sinful up to that time.
* Until the late '80s, education was strongly frowned upon by most but grudgingly accepted for certain ones. Still, education is strongly said, by many, to lead them astray from G-d.
* Until the '90s, women could not wear pants, and they still cannot wear them to church.
* Until the last few years, women had to dress ultra-modestly (no cleaveage, no short skirts, no tight clothes, no makeup).
* No jewelry of any kind other than watches, tie tacks, and dress pins -- not even wedding bands.
* No dancing, smoking, alcohol of any kind.
* It is a quiet, overly-orderly church without the normal pentecostal demonstrations during the services.
* Its typical music is hymns and classical music.
* It teaches that they have the "whole truth" while SOME other organizations have some truth.
* The members still believe that those who leave that church will go to hell, and some of the preachers will still say so from the pulpit.

I know what they call themselves, but I think they have changed enough in the last few years that technically, they should now come under a different label than the one they cling to.

Thank you to those who answer. I have been curious about how others might classify this church.

-- Somebody! Teach me how to type!!



1love1God1way -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (6/8/2008 2:16:30 AM)

That sounds more like a Christian Reformed church that I grew up in.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (6/8/2008 2:32:27 AM)

Really?!?!? Do they consider themselves pentecostal or charismatic?



1love1God1way -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (6/8/2008 2:37:06 AM)

No, they don't. They were very stout 5-point calvinists.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (6/8/2008 2:44:17 AM)

That's what I thought! Amazing that they could be similar.



OLEEguacamole -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (6/8/2008 3:20:28 AM)

they also have a lot in common with seventh day advents.



laura... -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (6/9/2008 12:16:52 AM)

quote:

* It teaches that they have the "whole truth" while SOME other organizations have some truth.
* The members still believe that those who leave that church will go to hell, and some of the preachers will still say so from the pulpit.


I would call it "cult".



drfuss -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (6/9/2008 7:54:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil

quote:

ORIGINAL: drfuss
The largest pentecostal denomination is the Church of God In Christ (COGIC) with the second largest being the Assemblies of God. Not sure, but The Foursquare Gospel may be the third largest denomination.


AG is largest denomination altho the term 'cooperative fellowship' is preferred with 283,413 churches worldwide, 57 million adherents worldwide, and 12,311 churches in the US.


drfuss: Worldwide, I think the AoG is the largest. I think my information was addressing only the churches within the United States. I should have clarified that.



JimboFletch -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (6/9/2008 8:05:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

No, they don't. They were very stout 5-point calvinists.

That's really strange to me. Most people criticize 5-Point Calvinists as not having enough rules to govern their lives and are more prone to enjoying life in Christ than the garden-variety Pentecostal, they just don't tend to have overly exuberant worship services.



Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI