Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (Full Version)

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bluestone -> Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 11:25:44 AM)

I think of these groups as different, but a lot of people lump them together.

I would like to know: what are the differences in these groups?

In particular, I would like to hear from those who are in these groups, although all are welcome to share thoughts, ideas, and theologies.



JimboFletch -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 11:31:44 AM)

In brief and to me, Pentecostal is a denominational tag, like Baptist or Methodist.

Charismatic transcends denominations, it's anyone that believes in certain spiritual gifts largely not evident in non-pentecostal churches. Charismatics can belong to RCC, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, or any other denomination.

WOF are cults that teach a servant or bellhop god whose job is to provide whatever is commanded. They believe Jesus saved us in order to make us happy and pampered.



Ps103 -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 12:03:14 PM)

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This is a preemptive nudge.

Just a reminder that this is *not* the place to debate WOF teachings or preachers--we have a one-stop thread for that.

This thread is *only* for explaining the differences between "Pentecostal," "Charismatic" and "WOF."

Thanks!

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GrahamCracker -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 12:17:07 PM)

I would say that the WOF is a subset of the broader classification of Charismatics. All WOF are Charismatic because they believe in the perpetuity of gifts like tongues, healing, and the experience called the baptism of the Holy Spirit. However, not all Charismatic folk are WOF.

The WOF folk believe that Christians who are in God's will benefit generally with physically healthy and financially prosperous lives. I think it would be safe to say that mainstream Evangelical orthodox Christians regard these differences as unorthodox and heretical. I am stating that as a fact regarding the larger opinion of people, not the merits of their claims.



bluestone -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 1:46:51 PM)

So traditionally pentecostal denominations such as Assemblies of God may have members that are really Charismatic?



GrahamCracker -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 1:49:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

So traditionally pentecostal denominations such as Assemblies of God may have members that are really Charismatic?


If they really believe what their churches teach, they are by default Charismatic--almost by definition. Obviously some churches may have members who do not subscribe to the beliefs of their denomination, but they could not be said to represent the teachings of their church. They are not johnny come latelies to the modern tongues movements. They would likely prefer to be referred to as pentecostal denominations.

There may be a nuance that I am not clear on. While Charismatic may be synonymous with the tongues movement, some may prefer to use it regarding denominations that were not traditionally organized around the modern tongues movement. I suppose someone could clarify if such a difference exists.



Ps103 -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 1:55:45 PM)

I think the way Jimbo explained it is good.

Charism=gift. Don't all Pentecostals believe in Spiritual gifts? (Asking sincerely because I do not know.)

Most non-Pentecostal denominations (or bodies, or whatever you prefer to call them) seem to have some movement within them, large or small, which has a keen interest in Spiritual gifts, and that is what I would consider to be "Charismatic."

I guess you could say Pentecostals are Charismatic by default--if I understand it correctly.



Ps103 -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 1:57:55 PM)

quote:

If they really believe what their churches teach, they are by default Charismatic--almost by definition.


[:D] Thanks, Larry! that is what I was thinking, but wasn't quite sure.



bluestone -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 2:00:34 PM)

I had a pentecostal man tell me once that the difference is that Pentecostals listen to Southern Gospel, and Charismatics like Contemporary.[:D]



JimboFletch -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 2:03:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ps103
I guess you could say Pentecostals are Charismatic by default--if I understand it correctly.

Perhaps by today's standards. But in the 70s and early 80s, Charismatics were quick to disclaim any connection with Pentecostals because of serious doctrinal differences - and the feeling was mutual with Pentecostals. More than once I had a Charismatic very forcefully correct me by calling them Pentecostal. Perhaps with the general unconcern about denomination and/or doctrines, there's no longer a desire for them to see themselves as distinct.



bluestone -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 2:06:46 PM)

That is part of the reason I asked the question. I once worked with several Charismatics who looked down their noses at Pentecostals as being "behind the times" and "old fashioned".

I have kept the belief that they are separate, but it seems they have sort of blended together.



JimboFletch -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 2:10:30 PM)

It is kinda rare around here to see a Charismatic woman wearing a dress down to her shoe tops and waist-length hair piled on top of her hear in a bun or bee hive, but plenty of Pentecostals do.
[;)]



Ps103 -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 2:11:12 PM)

From WIKI:

quote:

Acceptance by mainline churches
In the late 1960s and early 1970s Christians from mainline churches in the United States, Europe, and other parts of the world began to accept the teaching that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is available for Christians today. Charismatic movements began to grow in mainline denominations. There were Charismatic Episcopalians, Lutherans, Catholics, and Methodists. During that time period, 'Charismatic' was used to refer to these movements that existed within mainline denominations. Pentecostal was used to refer to those who were a part of the churches and denominations that grew out of the earlier Azusa Street revival. However in recent decades many independent Charismatic churches and ministries have formed or have developed their own denominations and church associations. In the 1960s and still today, many Pentecostal churches were still strict with dress codes and forbidding certain forms of entertainment, creating a cultural distinction between Charismatics and Pentecostals. There is a great deal of overlap now between the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements



bluestone -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 2:13:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

It is kinda rare around here to see a Charismatic woman wearing a dress down to her shoe tops and waist-length hair piled on top of her hear in a bun or bee hive, but plenty of Pentecostals do.
[;)]


Exactly. Pentecostals of the past were also holiness folk. (of course, holiness folk are not Pentecostal in most cases).
They had hair in buns, long skirts, no makeup, and one man I knew would not wear a tie, said it was worldly.
Charasmatics seem to be the opposite.



laura... -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 2:22:30 PM)

Here is my understanding:

Pentecostal denominations are different than Charismatic. Pentacostal and Charismatic were 2 different movements.

Pentecostal denominations for the most part originated out of the Asuza Street outpouring way back when. The majority of Pentacostal denominations believe in a full gospel. "Full gospel" meaning that the baptism of the Holy Spirit evidenced by tongues and other gifts of the Spirit are still for today. They are usually very bible based in their teaching and preaching. Obviously, there are some differences in doctrine between various Pentacostal denominations and fellowships.

The Charismatic movement started in the 1970's. It involved the mainline, well-established denominations embracing the baptism of the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues. This included such denominations as Methodist, Episcopal, Catholic, Presbiterian, etc.

(I'm guessing at the timeline.) In the 80's and 90's other groups, independent churches, started springing up that identified themselves as charismatic that were also very word of faith oriented. I believe many of the leaders of those groups came out of either pentecostal churches and/or mainline denominations. Their focus tends to be more on experiential faith rather than bible-centered.



bluestone -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 2:26:56 PM)

So traditional Pentecostal churches would include Church of God (Cleveland) and Assemblies of God, Charismatic churches would be Vineyard or Harvest Churches?



laura... -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 2:32:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

So traditional Pentecostal churches would include Church of God (Cleveland) and Assemblies of God, Charismatic churches would be Vineyard or Harvest Churches?


Correct. Pentecostal would also include oneness churches such as Apostolic and a lot of the small independent holiness churches.

Today's "charismatic" would be Vineyard, Harvest and the like. Previously, "charismatic" just referred to movements within the mainline denominations. I think a lot of the current Charismatic (mania) groups are a result of people who were part of the mainline churches' charismatic movements that didn't care for the restriction imposed by those mainline denominations. So they went out and started their own groups.



laura... -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 2:33:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ps103

From WIKI:

quote:

Acceptance by mainline churches
In the late 1960s and early 1970s Christians from mainline churches in the United States, Europe, and other parts of the world began to accept the teaching that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is available for Christians today. Charismatic movements began to grow in mainline denominations. There were Charismatic Episcopalians, Lutherans, Catholics, and Methodists. During that time period, 'Charismatic' was used to refer to these movements that existed within mainline denominations. Pentecostal was used to refer to those who were a part of the churches and denominations that grew out of the earlier Azusa Street revival. However in recent decades many independent Charismatic churches and ministries have formed or have developed their own denominations and church associations. In the 1960s and still today, many Pentecostal churches were still strict with dress codes and forbidding certain forms of entertainment, creating a cultural distinction between Charismatics and Pentecostals. There is a great deal of overlap now between the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements



Thanks. You beat me to it. I'm glad Wiki confirms what I kinda knew in my head.



GrahamCracker -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 2:35:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

That is part of the reason I asked the question. I once worked with several Charismatics who looked down their noses at Pentecostals as being "behind the times" and "old fashioned".

I have kept the belief that they are separate, but it seems they have sort of blended together.


Many who subscribe to the Pentecostal label or a Pentecostal denomination used to be (and some are) very strict in their standards of personal dress and behavior. Some Pentecostal women wouldn't wear make up or men's slacks. They wouldn't cut their hair short or wear jewelry.

Perhaps Charismatics, never having those strict codes, would not want themselves to be confused with traditional Pentecostals.



StephK -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 2:37:31 PM)

A lot of my family are Pentecostal and they are more separate from the world as far as dress goes than are the Charismatics. Pentecostals around here are Oneness who don't believe in the Trinity, don't believe in watching tv, although I think that is changing, have a specific dress code for women and men. Women don't cut their hair ever, wear long dresses with long sleeves, although most are skin tight so nothing is really hidden KWIM. Women don't wear make-up or jewelry. Men don't wear shorts or short sleeves usually, have very short hair and are mostly in construction in which my smart alec brother says they just want to be carpenters like Jesus.


Here's the doctrinal statement from the biggest Pentecostal church in my area in which several members of my family were founders and charter members:

quote:

We believe in one true God who has manifested himself to man as Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Ghost in regeneration. God has been known to man by various titles and terms throughout the course of human history, but He is called by the name of Jesus in the New Testament Church.

We believe that in order for man to be saved, he must follow the Acts 2:38 doctrine of Repentance, Baptism in Jesus' name, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost with the outward evidence of speaking in tongues.

"Then Peter said unto them, 'Repent, be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children and to all of those that are afar off. Even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

Acts 2:38, 39



bluestone -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 2:42:28 PM)

So some Pentecostals believe that a second work of grace is necessary for Salvation, with a particular gift to prove it, others may think the second work of grace is optional? Or that a variety of gifts would be evident, not just a particular one?

How would that vary from Charismatics?

WOF people believe all that, plus you have to send in money to a ministry?



StephK -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 2:45:27 PM)

Pentecostals like Baptists comes in a variety of flavors.



laura... -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 2:46:37 PM)

Assemblies of God definitely refer to themselves as pentecostal. In their beginnings they were very much holiness in nature--no makeup; women in dresses only; no dancing, movies or card playing. They've long since moved away from that brand of legalism. You can pretty much spot a pentecostal holiness church because they'll usually have "pentecostal" as part of their name. &:)



StephK -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 2:54:21 PM)

I always felt sorry for my poor aunt who truly was a Christian but because she had never spoken in tongues believed she was lost.



BerianAardvark -> RE: Pentecostals, WOf, & Charasmatics: What's the difference? (5/30/2008 2:54:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

So traditional Pentecostal churches would include Church of God (Cleveland) and Assemblies of God, Charismatic churches would be Vineyard or Harvest Churches?


The Webster's Collegiate dictionary define Pentecostal as: of, relating to, or constituting any of various Christian religious bodies that emphasize individual experiences of grace, spiritual gifts (as glossolalia and faith healing), expressive worship, and evangelism
(C)1997, 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. All rights reserved

and Charismatic as a member of a charismatic religious group or movement,

charisma is defined as:: an extraordinary power (as of healing) given a Christian by the Holy Spirit for the good of the church
(C)1997, 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. All rights reserved

So it looks like Pentecostal and Charismatic are, if not the same thing, at least similar enough that determining which is a sub set of the other would depend upon point of view.

Tim



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