old testament: horrible stories (Full Version)

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Lufia -> old testament: horrible stories (6/1/2008 5:11:38 PM)

Wow have you read Judges 19? It is one of the most horrible story i have ever read. And it is in the Bible !!!

And all those: Gen. 34, judges 15, kings 18, esther 9 ... are all about murderers and slaugthering people!!! I can't believe it is in the Bible. Very discusting
I dont understand, really.



stellaluna -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/1/2008 5:22:16 PM)

What is it that you don't understand?



Roberta_ -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/1/2008 5:24:56 PM)

They are true stories. What's so horrible about having them in the Bible?



makarizo -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/1/2008 5:46:37 PM)

I thought Eze 23 was a little too disgusting to be in the bible, but I know it's there for a reason.



Lufia -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/1/2008 5:55:45 PM)

What i dont understand? The horrible violence in them. What lessons do we have to learn when an husband give his wife ( instead of him) to a bunch of guys to rape her all night long and then kill her and cut her body in 12 parts?



Roberta_ -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/1/2008 5:59:25 PM)

Was he following God?



Wild-Rose -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/1/2008 6:15:50 PM)

Did you read Judges 20 also? It is important to read the entire story from start to finish. This will lead to understanding.



Wild-Rose -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/1/2008 6:47:16 PM)

Esther is a beautiful wonderful story. Have you read the whole story?



TJStarfire -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/1/2008 6:56:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lufia
I dont understand, really.


Understand then that because of the violence very few people from that pierod of History will be in heaven.



SonInMe1 -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/1/2008 7:02:43 PM)

You must have had a...limited...existance. Maybe protected is a better word.

These things happen..everyday.

Its the...world. These things show our great need for Christ. This is the result of sin in this world...its very very serious.

Its why we need protection. The real world IS dog eat dog...literally. Without the military and police, we all would be in fear of rape and murder.

Its how we humans are. That might upset a few applecarts but it is fact.



BibleL7 -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/2/2008 4:33:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJStarfire

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lufia
I dont understand, really.


Understand then that because of the violence very few people from that pierod of History will be in heaven.


Starfire are you sure of what you are saying perhaps you should reread.

Lufia life is sometimes horrible and I dont really see your objection to the truth being in the Bible is not Jesus the Way, TRUTH and Life



Mrs.Above_All -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/2/2008 4:45:30 AM)

For starters, it just shows the sinful nature of man. It is good that you are disgusted with it because we should be. If we are disgusted about it imagine how much more disgusted G-d is.

How else can G-d show us our sin if He doesn't point it out to us? How else can we even remotely understand Holiness?



Lufia -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/2/2008 7:33:36 PM)

I always taught that in the Bible, stories were there to teach me good moralities, good ways of doing things... Giving your wife to a bunch of murderers is totally immoral for me (What a courageous husband!). As the others stories i refered to.

God seems to help a lot the jewish people. It is like only them were deserving the help of God. To them, all was permitted in the name of God. They can kill as a revenge for a sister, they can kill hundreds or thousands of people all this with acceptance by God!

That's those things i dont understand.



ladyichigo -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/2/2008 8:30:31 PM)

There is much blood-shed and violence in the OT, but there is also MUCH wisdom (see Proverbs), compassion (Psalms), and passion/romance (Song of Solomon). The fact is, violence is in the Bible because that is part of Israel’s history. That is truth. You must realize that the Word is not just a collection of gushy lovey-dovey things and rainbows and butterflies. God's understanding is far beyond our own. I believe what you can learn from the OT is that God is the Righteous Judge, He is just, He is the Provider, He is holy, He is untamed, all powerful, uncontainable, etc.

God did favor the Jews. Remember that Jesus Christ, God the Son was a Jew. If you go and look at the genealogy of Jesus Christ, you can trace it all the way back to Abraham. It is through Abraham that God promised the great nation of Israel. Throughout Israel’s history, you will see that the nation of Israel continually strayed away from God after countless miracles God has shown to them, after countless times God has saved them from annihilation, resulting in God pouring His wrath unto them. It was crucial for Israel to be a godly nation as it is from this nation that the Messiah would be born. Remember also that Christianity was born from Judaism.



jn1010lf -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/2/2008 9:24:35 PM)

Hello Lufia

I think you need to do some research into the kinds of people that Israel fought. All of them were extremely wicked and lived against anything that was good and godly. You might also concentrate on some of the beautiful and wonderful stories in the O.T.



mikeman2 -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/3/2008 1:50:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lufia

I always taught that in the Bible, stories were there to teach me good moralities, good ways of doing things... Giving your wife to a bunch of murderers is totally immoral for me (What a courageous husband!). As the others stories i refered to.

God seems to help a lot the jewish people. It is like only them were deserving the help of God. To them, all was permitted in the name of God. They can kill as a revenge for a sister, they can kill hundreds or thousands of people all this with acceptance by God!

That's those things i dont understand.

I can tell you of the most disgustingly violent episodes in all the Bible, namely the crucifixian of Jesus. So the question is, why must it be so?

Violence is not always a bad thing. For example, if Christ had not undergone the violence of the cross where would we be today? Also, if the nation of Israel had not been born through violence would the Messiah have been able to come in the world at all? Of course, many view violence as a sin in and of itself, however, if we study the life of Christ he clearly did not think so. For example, he took up a whip and drove the money changers out of the temple. He also said things to the effect that the violent take it by force etc.

Violence must be viewed as a catalyst for change and not an evil in and of itself. For example, if Hitler had not been violently overthrown how much more violence would have been thrust at the world through him? Therefore, it is the change that is the result of violence that should be studied and not only the violence that produced such change. In the case of Christ, his violence was to fight for the will of the Father which was to bring mankind back to God. This meant chasing the money changers out of the temple and anything else that stood in the way of God and man coming together. This also meant attacking hypocrites who said they spoke for God but really were more interested in attending to their own interests than bringing man to God. Therefore, if we really are interested in what Christ was interested in which is to do the will of God which is to bring mankind back to him, our fight will be violent, or at least on a spiritual level. So the question must be asked, are you willing to suffer violence for the kingdom of God as well?



ldunning -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/3/2008 2:51:13 AM)

And why were these folks in this pickle to begin with?
Verse 2



deliveredarling -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/3/2008 7:05:02 AM)

Lufia, I'm gathering that these stories that you have been reading, don't fit into the God you believe in. In that sense it wouldn't make sense. I'm basing this on your responses from another thread. On that thread we told you that your Jesus was not the one of the Bible. The Bible does not lie, and we can not pick and choose only the parts that make us comfortable. If we are picking and choosing, we are creating an idol to worship

The Bible has some of the most amazing stories in it. We can read them over and over, each time finding something we missed the first time, or second, or......

Let me encourage you to keep reading all the while asking God to give you wisdom and understanding.



SonInMe1 -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/3/2008 7:45:53 AM)

The old testament is just...

the real world. Its not pretty, never was, never will be until Jesus comes back.

That..is life. That...is why Jesus hung on that "tree". That...is why we desperately need God.

Life, true life, is all about God. All of it. Outside of God is pure living hell. The Old Testament illustrates this perfectly.

Maybe you will never be confronted with a mob wanting to either kill you or rape your wife. Lets hope not, but the thing is....you never know how you will react until the time comes. I have done things I never would have imagined doing when I was younger.

Life sometimes just...sucks.



Wild-Rose -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/3/2008 8:20:11 AM)

quote:

God seems to help a lot the Jewish people. It is like only them were deserving the help of God. To them, all was permitted in the name of God.


God blessed the Jewish people because He wanted them to be a righteous nation and serve Him. But they did not get away with anything. You know that, right? There are many many times when they went astray, worshiped false gods and committed sin. They were punished for it. God wants his people to be Holy. The Bible stories cannot teach us about holiness unless we see the sin and results of sin also.



seagullplayer -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/3/2008 9:57:24 AM)

Truth is not always pretty.

(Heb 4:12) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.



DaveW -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/3/2008 3:12:08 PM)

Lufia:

It sounds to me like you have a preconception based on your own opinion of what God should be like and what the Bible should say. What you are now reading is coming into conflict with that preconcieved idea.

I would submit to you that you need to put aside those ideas and spend time reading the actual bible, including the difficult and gory parts to get to know who and what the REAL GOD is like. He is much more complex and deep than we can imagine.



Lufia -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/3/2008 6:29:04 PM)

quote:

Lufia:

It sounds to me like you have a preconception based on your own opinion of what God should be like and what the Bible should say. What you are now reading is coming into conflict with that preconcieved idea.

I would submit to you that you need to put aside those ideas and spend time reading the actual bible, including the difficult and gory parts to get to know who and what the REAL GOD is like. He is much more complex and deep than we can imagine



Because i don't believe that about 80% of humanity ( dead and alive) will go to hell doesn't mean i don't worship the same God as you. I think it is blasphemy to think that Jesus died on the cross for only about 10-20% of all human beings ( dead and alive). Only a small portion of humanity as been access to Jesus's Good News. Today is another story because the world we live in is smaller than ever but just go back 100 years and it is a complete different story. From year 0 to the 15th century, how many people in america would be save? None because no christians were on our continent.

I believe that Jesus came to earth to show us the Way and that He gave His life for us. And also that He is my Savior. I think i've got the same God and same Bible as everybody here.



Stronger2day -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/3/2008 7:50:10 PM)

Hi Lufia, if/when I start to question fundamental biblical truths, I have to remind myself that our Father is so much greater than we are, who am I to question Him or His Word? We do not have the mental capacity to know all of the answers and reasons, nor should we - simply stated-we are not God. What we do have is His infallible Word to study and pray on, and as Christians we accept it all, not partly. What we do need to have is faith that our Father knows what is best for us and every other person in history. It pains me, that people in my family will volunteer and do numerous good deeds, yet for whatever reason they can’t bring themselves to accept Christ and secure eternity- but once again, that is not MY call to make as it is out of my control. What IS in my control is to pray for them and to be the best model of Christ’s love that I can be. To say that I know better than our Father on this issue, or to deny His truth (Bible), would show absolute disrespect and disobedience to the One who gave His son to save an undeserving person like me. [:)]



mikeman2 -> RE: old testament: horrible stories (6/3/2008 8:38:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lufia

quote:

Lufia:

It sounds to me like you have a preconception based on your own opinion of what God should be like and what the Bible should say. What you are now reading is coming into conflict with that preconcieved idea.

I would submit to you that you need to put aside those ideas and spend time reading the actual bible, including the difficult and gory parts to get to know who and what the REAL GOD is like. He is much more complex and deep than we can imagine



Because i don't believe that about 80% of humanity ( dead and alive) will go to hell doesn't mean i don't worship the same God as you. I think it is blasphemy to think that Jesus died on the cross for only about 10-20% of all human beings ( dead and alive). Only a small portion of humanity as been access to Jesus's Good News. Today is another story because the world we live in is smaller than ever but just go back 100 years and it is a complete different story. From year 0 to the 15th century, how many people in america would be save? None because no christians were on our continent.

I believe that Jesus came to earth to show us the Way and that He gave His life for us. And also that He is my Savior. I think i've got the same God and same Bible as everybody here.

So tell me, where in the Bible does it say what percentage goes to heaven/hell? In fact, it does not. Also, what of those who died before Christ came to earth? I don't think anyone in Christiandom thinks that men and women like Abraham and Sarah did not make it to heaven even though they died before Christ died for them.

It is fruitless to judge others and a time waster to ask if they went to heaven/hell because it is not up to us. All we have are the words of Christ that show us a light to God and that should be our focus.



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