RE: A Question of Prayer (Full Version)

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ta_mosquito -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/5/2008 7:55:06 PM)

To be totally honest, I think most people say "amen" when praying out loud so that those praying along know when the prayer is over and they can raise their heads. [;)]

Seriously.



john_mark -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/5/2008 8:16:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito

To be totally honest, I think most people say "amen" when praying out loud so that those praying along know when the prayer is over and they can raise their heads. [;)]

Seriously.


i think you nailed it [;)]



J_Michael80 -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/5/2008 9:02:10 PM)

quote:

original: ta_mosquito

To be totally honest, I think most people say "amen" when praying out loud so that those praying along know when the prayer is over and they can raise their heads.


From my own personal experience, I respectfully disagree. (Of course I can't speak for others). Nevertheless, I say amen after I pray out loud in public places because I feel like its an obligation and it has become a habit to end my prayer with amen.



Lufia -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/6/2008 11:45:52 PM)

I think that when we say In jesus name, it is because that He told us that whatever we ask in his name He will give to us if it is God's will. The thing i dont like about it is that it sounds like a magic formula. You end your prayer by saying in Jesus name and then bingo your prayer is answered.
So on a personal level, i say in Jesus name, the One who saved me.

To be honest i never taught about 'amen'. But for me it means so be it ( if God's will).
It is some sort of closing for my prayer.



cognitivemagic -> RE: A Question of Prayer (6/18/2008 3:51:44 AM)

In the Orthodox Church, it is customary to pray in the name of "the Father, Son and Holy Spirit"; in other words, the "authority" and "address" of prayer is to the Triune God.

In "Jesus only" type of churches, it is customary to pray to Jesus only; hence "Jesus only". This is due to the fact that "Jesus only" theology is essentially modalistic (i.e. that God is undifferentiated "oneness" that alternates between the "mode" of Father/Son/Spirit).

Also, about the formality of saying "amen", and the like, in prayer: we also say things like "how are you doing" or "congratulations" as purely formal gestures; even if we don't really care or mean it. We do that to remain civil and respectful, despite our "feelings", as a matter of good-will and charity on our part.

Therefore, I don't see any problem with formal prayer. In fact, it's good spiritual exercise to work us up to sincere and fervent prayer.



Ezra -> RE: A Question of Prayer (7/1/2008 3:04:23 PM)

quote:

However, I still see no command in Scripture to do so.


You don't have to see something as a "command" before you follow the Scriptural pattern that already exists. What the apostles (and others) did and said is also meant to be a pattern for us.

1. "In Jesus Name" -- "IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, to deliver such an one unto Satan, for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Cor. 5:4).

Here Paul specifically asks that a prayer be offered in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to bring judgement upon a sinning brother. You will find several instances where "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" is mentioned (e.g. Acts 3:6).

2. "Amen" -- Paul and John end their doxologies with "Amen", and so do the angels and elders in Heaven. Paul and John also end their epistles with "Amen". See 1 Tim. 6:15,16, Rev. 1:6; 5:14; 7:12; 19:4 and the endings of the epistles.

There is a reason for that all that is recorded in Scripture "for our learning", without necessarily being a "command". And we need to have the spiritual discernment to recognize a spiritual pattern, even though we may not fully understand its implications.

Someone stated that this is "tradition". Well, as a matter of fact, it is apostolic tradition, and that means it was "handed down" by Christ to the apostles, and by the apostles to us. So it is not man-made tradition by any means (which I personally reject).



ta_mosquito -> RE: A Question of Prayer (7/1/2008 7:17:09 PM)

quote:

Here Paul specifically asks that a prayer be offered in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to bring judgement upon a sinning brother. You will find several instances where "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" is mentioned (e.g. Acts 3:6).


Does that mean one must use the words, "In Jesus' Name" at the end of the prayer, or does it mean more than saying those 3 words?



MrFribbles -> RE: A Question of Prayer (7/1/2008 10:41:23 PM)

quote:

"Amen" -- Paul and John end their doxologies with "Amen"


If all we pray are doxologies, then I would agree that it would be a proper way to end our prayers.
Personally, I do not only pray doxologies.

quote:

Paul and John also end their epistles with "Amen". See 1 Tim. 6:15,16, Rev. 1:6; 5:14; 7:12; 19:4 and the endings of the epistles.


See above, but change "doxologies" to "epistles."
Both of the examples you gave were Christians speaking to other Christians about God - not Christians speaking to God. Jesus did not end His prayers with "amen." Well, at least not in any prayers of His recorded in the gospels.



Ezra -> RE: A Question of Prayer (7/2/2008 10:31:25 PM)

quote:

Does that mean one must use the words, "In Jesus' Name" at the end of the prayer, or does it mean more than saying those 3 words?


Whether we say "in the Name of Lord Jesus Christ" before or "in Jesus Name" after, we must bear in mind that this is not a mere incanation or just "words" but it has real spiritual meaning.

No child of God can come to the Father except through the Son, washed in His blood, and clothed with his righteousness. Our prayers receive answers only because Christ said that if we ask anything "in His name" it shall be done. Therefore all the power and authority of the Lord Jesus Christ resides in that "name above every name". This is the reason why we pray in the name of the Lord Jesus.

quote:

If all we pray are doxologies, then I would agree that it would be a proper way to end our prayers. Personally, I do not only pray doxologies.


The issue is not whether or not we offer only doxologies, but that fact that every doxology is accompanied by "Amen". That is reason enough to (1) include doxologies in our prayers and praises and to (2) concur with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that this is so, by an "Amen".

The point is that all spiritual communication must ultimately be in agreement with the triune Godhead, and when we pray according to His will and purpose, we concur with "Amen". When other Christians concur with us they also say "Amen". When the angels concur with God they too say "Amen".

We seem to be forgetting that true prayers come from the Holy Spirit (who enables us to pray as we ought to, and expressing our desires even when we cannot articulate them), through the Son, to God the Father. We express our oneness and agreement with the Holy Spirit through the "Amen" and we see the "Amens" scattered throughout Scripture. You will see the apostle John concurring twice with the Lord Jesus Christ at the end of the book of Revelation, and saying "Amen" twice (Rev. 22:20,21).

quote:

Both of the examples you gave were Christians speaking to other Christians about God - not Christians speaking to God. Jesus did not end His prayers with "amen." Well, at least not in any prayers of His recorded in the gospels.


Well, as a matter of fact, "the Lord's Prayer" as recorded in Matthew has Jesus saying "Amen" at the end of the prayer in Mt. 6:13 in the Greek Received Text as well as the KJV. Perhaps your version has expunged that word (as so many other words and sentences have been expunged from modern translations). So please go to the Greek Interlinear Received Text and you will find Jesus saying "Amen" at the end of "the Model Prayer" known as "the Lord's Prayer". And, after, all He is our ultimate example.



MrFribbles -> RE: A Question of Prayer (7/2/2008 11:41:47 PM)

quote:

Whether we say "in the Name of Lord Jesus Christ" before or "in Jesus Name" after, we must bear in mind that this is not a mere incanation or just "words" but it has real spiritual meaning.


If that's the case, where is the command in Scripture to literally say "in Jesus' name?"

quote:

Our prayers receive answers only because Christ said that if we ask anything "in His name" it shall be done. Therefore all the power and authority of the Lord Jesus Christ resides in that "name above every name". This is the reason why we pray in the name of the Lord Jesus.


I absolutely agree, we must pray in Jesus' name. However, given the meaning of "name" in both Old and New Testament times, I believe that praying in the name of Christ is praying in a way that is in line with Him and His character - it is not 3 words that make our prayers "count."

quote:

The issue is not whether or not we offer only doxologies, but that fact that every doxology is accompanied by "Amen". That is reason enough to (1) include doxologies in our prayers and praises and to (2) concur with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that this is so, by an "Amen".


1, where is the command to do this?
2, the content of our prayers should determine this - not a single word.

quote:

When other Christians concur with us they also say "Amen".


Absolutely. I agree that other Christians who are present when someone else is praying can and should say "amen," since then it makes sense for them to do so.

quote:

Well, as a matter of fact, "the Lord's Prayer" as recorded in Matthew has Jesus saying "Amen" at the end of the prayer in Mt. 6:13 in the Greek Received Text as well as the KJV. Perhaps your version has expunged that word (as so many other words and sentences have been expunged from modern translations). So please go to the Greek Interlinear Received Text and you will find Jesus saying "Amen" at the end of "the Model Prayer" known as "the Lord's Prayer". And, after, all He is our ultimate example.


Funny, I have my Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament in front of me... No ahmeyn (sorry for the transliteration) to be found. It does, however, say that "ahmeyn" was added for the Vulgate. I contend that this "amen" you suggest is there is not to be found in the best Greek manuscripts.



Kooks -> RE: A Question of Prayer (7/3/2008 8:39:17 AM)

I think people use the traditional closing words of 'In Jesus' name' and 'Amen' in order to feel that their prayer has in some way more effect. Yes I know that God loves us all and listens to us no matter how informal our prayers are, but occassionaly people (myself included) need that small repetition to allow us to get in the right mindset for the prayer. Whether or not it is ordained within the Scripture I do not know, my copy of the bible does not have Jesus saying Amen at the end of the Lord's Prayer but I can't imagine that the early church just plucked the idea of saying Amen at the end of their prayers from nowhere......



bgwill3 -> RE: A Question of Prayer (7/3/2008 1:50:20 PM)

Now that I have thought about it, I generally don't end my personal prayers with "amen." I most often end public prayers with "amen"; it lets people know that the prayer has ended, and gives them opportunity to concur with what has been said.



Machaira -> RE: A Question of Prayer (7/3/2008 6:06:01 PM)

A few of you may be interested in the NET Bible's commentary on the longer ending of the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6:13.

Most mss (L W Q 0233 Ë13 33 Ï sy sa Didache) read (though some with slight variation) o{ti sou' ejstin hJ basileiva kaiV hJ duvnami" kaiV hJ dovxa eij" touV" aijw'na", ajmhvn (“for yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever, amen”) here. The reading without this sentence, though, is attested by generally better witnesses (Í B D Z 0170 Ë1 pc lat mae Or). The phrase was probably composed for the liturgy of the early church and most likely was based on 1 Chr 29:11-13; a scribe probably added the phrase at this point in the text for use in public scripture reading (see TCGNT 13-14). Both external and internal evidence argue for the shorter reading. - NET Bible on Matt. 6:13, Note #19



Machaira -> RE: A Question of Prayer (7/3/2008 6:17:42 PM)

“Amen” is generally used as an adverb of assent or confirmation - fiat, “so let it be.” In Jer_28:6 the prophet endorses with it the words of Hananiah. Amen is employed when an individual or the whole nation confirms a covenant or oath recited in their presence (Num_5:22; Deu_27:15; Neh_5:13, etc.). It also occurs at the close of a psalm or book of psalms, or of a prayer. - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

It is found singly and sometimes doubly at the end of prayers (Psa_41:13; Psa_72:19; Psa_89:52), to confirm the words and invoke the fulfillment of them. It is used in token of being bound by an oath (Num_5:22; Deu_27:15-26; Neh_5:13; Neh_8:6; 1Ch_16:36).
In the primitive churches it was common for the general audience to say “Amen” at the close of the prayer (1Co_14:16).
The promises of God are Amen; i.e., they are all true and sure (2Co_1:20). - Easton's Bible Dictionary



DaveW -> RE: A Question of Prayer (7/8/2008 2:36:08 PM)

The origin of "amein" is from the Jewish synagogues of the first century bc. The pharasaic proto-rabbis put together a liturgy of prayers and confessions, but as hand written documents were expensive, only the synagogue leaders had copies. They would recite the prayer and everyone would answer "Amein" to indicate their agreement with what he said. It became a substitute for them saying the prayer themselves. So for one to pray and then say amen himself is redundant.

Battlestar Galactica has picked up on this original meaning with the "So Say We ALL" phrase.



hellohellohi -> RE: A Question of Prayer (7/8/2008 3:03:54 PM)

quote:

It became a substitute for them saying the prayer themselves. So for one to pray and then say amen himself is redundant.


Wow, that's really interesting. Because it does seem like a redundancy would be like swearing.



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