Four Square Gospell (Full Version)

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trumpeter4Jesus -> Four Square Gospell (6/2/2008 9:50:15 PM)

Hi, eveyone. I am new to this website and am interested to know if anyone attends a Four Square Gospel church? I grew up in a Methodist church and after thirty-some years starting attending a Four Square Gospel church. My family and I have been attending for four years now and love it. God Bless!



Szaftoo -> RE: Four Square Gospell (6/3/2008 9:54:27 AM)

I was another denomination for 30 years and only left because I moved to a different area. In looking for a new church, I visited a Four Square church and have been there 25 years. My daughter graduated from Life Pacific Bible college and now works in their missions department.
I also love it.



rcjames -> RE: Four Square Gospell (6/3/2008 10:10:38 AM)

I am not a member of the Four Square, but over the years have preached a number of revivals at their Churches, and had fellowship with many of the Churches.

I rate them as A-OK.

Thanks
RC



drfuss -> RE: Four Square Gospell (6/3/2008 10:17:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: trumpeter4Jesus

Hi, eveyone. I am new to this website and am interested to know if anyone attends a Four Square Gospel church? I grew up in a Methodist church and after thirty-some years starting attending a Four Square Gospel church. My family and I have been attending for four years now and love it. God Bless!


drfuss: I was also raised in a Methodist chruch and was saved at the age of 14 in a Foursquare Gospel church. My brother is a retired Foursquare Gospel minister. I have attended a SBC church for the past 15 years, but have not lost contact with the Foursquare Gospel denomination.

The Foursquare Gospel denomination is pentecostal and is doctrinally similar to the Assemblies of God denomination except the churches are owned by the denomination and the pastors are appointed by the denomination. AoG churches are independently owned and the individual churches call their pastors. As I recall, 4SQ. stande for: Savior, Healer, Baptizer and Coming King.

As with the AoG, the type of services can vary from church to church. The larger 4SQ. church services tend to be comparatively reserved while the smaller churches can be more emotional and WOF oriented. Although, this is not always the case.

Basically, the 4SQ. is a good denomination.

What size 4SQ. church do you attend?



Sonrise -> RE: Four Square Gospell (6/3/2008 11:43:05 AM)

Went to TCOTW for 7 years and it was very biblically grounded. Pastor Jack Hayford acknowledged the "gifts of the spirit" but emphasized that God was a God of order and self control was a fruit of the Spirit. Apparently some 4square churches don't adhere to this, like some AG churches, hit or miss. We've lived in SC for over a year now and can't find a church that compares to ours back in Los Angeles.

Truthfully though, there's no such thing as denominations in the Bible. Just make sure that the church you call home preaches from the Bible, and neither adds nor takes away from it.



BerianAardvark -> RE: Four Square Gospell (6/3/2008 1:11:09 PM)

I was raised Disciples of Christ, then went prodigal for a while...when I finally came to my senses, after "shopping around" for a while, In wound up in a Calvary Chapel. Their fellowship was founded by a Four Square Pastor.

I'm not positive just how similar they are...but I know that the Calvary Chapel fellowship are certainly worth looking at so I assume that 4 Square Churches are as well.

Tim



colliefan -> RE: Four Square Gospell (6/3/2008 1:23:59 PM)

What are the "four squares"?



Szaftoo -> RE: Four Square Gospell (6/3/2008 4:41:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

What are the "four squares"?


The Savior
The Baptizer with the Holy Spirit
The Healer
The Soon Coming King



colliefan -> RE: Four Square Gospell (6/3/2008 5:18:37 PM)

quote:

The Savior
The Baptizer with the Holy Spirit
The Healer
The Soon Coming King


Thanks.

Do they believe the HS comes at salvation? Or, it is a subsequent experience evidenced by speaking in tongues? In terms of the second comming: pre-mil, post-mil, or a-mil?



drfuss -> RE: Four Square Gospell (6/3/2008 7:32:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

quote:

The Savior
The Baptizer with the Holy Spirit
The Healer
The Soon Coming King


Thanks.

Do they believe the HS comes at salvation? Or, it is a subsequent experience evidenced by speaking in tongues? In terms of the second comming: pre-mil, post-mil, or a-mil?


drfuss: Concerning the second coming, they are officially pre-mil and pre-trib., although some 4squre ministers have privately admitted to me that no one really knows if it is pre-trib. or post trib.

My understanding is that officially the 4Square believes one receives the holy spirit at salvation, with speaking in tongues as evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit. However, years ago, I heard some ministers get carried away and indicate a Christian is not filled with the Holy Spirit until he speaks in tongues; this while encouraging Christians to seek the infilling of the Holy Spirit. This is an area that the 4square is not really clear on, so you may find this treated differently by various 4aquare ministers.



drfuss -> RE: Four Square Gospell (6/3/2008 7:40:31 PM)

drfuss: From the 4Square Gospel Statement of Faith:

The New Birth
We believe that the change that takes place in people at conversion is a very real one; that having received righteousness in Christ and having received of His Spirit, people will have new desires, interests, and pursuits in life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 2:20).

Baptism in the Holy Spirit
We believe that the baptism in the Holy Spirit empowers believers to exalt Jesus, to live lives of holiness, and to be witnesses of God’s saving grace; we expect the Spirit’s incoming to be after the same manner as that in which He came upon believers in the days of the Early Church (Acts 1: 5, 8; 2:4).



colliefan -> RE: Four Square Gospell (6/3/2008 8:00:54 PM)

thanks



trumpeter4Jesus -> RE: Four Square Gospell (6/6/2008 4:38:18 PM)

I finally made it back to this thread after starting it. Nice to meet everyone that responded. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was kind of a "hang-up" for me at first when we started attending our Four Square Gospel church. Our pastor is pretty clear about saying that you have the Holy Spirit when you accept Christ, but that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a gift that can also be received. I prayed to receive the gift of tongues a few times before I finally received the gift. There is no pressure to receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit at our church.



ChristopherJ -> RE: Four Square Gospell (6/7/2008 12:31:38 AM)

I have been a pastor in a Foursquare Church for several years now, and you are right that the Foursquare distinctives emphasize Jesus as Saviour, Healer, Baptiser in the Holy Spirit, and Soon Coming King. It's focus on JESUS is what I like!

quote:

Do they believe the HS comes at salvation? Or, it is a subsequent experience evidenced by speaking in tongues? In terms of the second comming: pre-mil, post-mil, or a-mil?


I just preached a message on "Revival and the Fullness of the Spirit" two weeks ago that kind of answered that question. You can download the notes HERE or listen to the audio sermon by going HERE. Here's part of the message:

THREE THINGS WE NEED TO KNOW ABOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT:
“And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide
with you for ever; the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither
sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.”(John 14:16-17).
1. The Holy Spirit WITH US - convicts us of sin, draws us to Jesus & salvation.
2. The Holy Spirit WITHIN US - when we are saved/born again - new creation - the Holy Spirit comes inside of all believers.
“But you shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and you shall be
witnesses unto me.” (Acts 1:8).
3. The Holy Spirit UPON US - empowers us for ministry (baptism of the Holy Spirit).

So yes, we believe the Holy Spirit comes IN you at the point of salvation, but later comes UPON YOU (the baptism of the Holy Spirit) as a subsequent experience, much like the Pentecostals, charismatics, vineyard, Assemblies of God churches believe.

There is no real distinctive position the Foursquare church has concerning eschatology. (Incidentally, I am neither a futurist (in regards to my interpretation of Revelation) nor a premillennialist, though many Foursquare ministers are. Blessings!



earthless -> RE: Four Square Gospell (6/8/2008 6:17:51 PM)

Acts was historical and needed, but is not normative for us today because we have Him already and the complete Word of God. We don't keep laying onto an already established foundation.



ChristopherJ -> RE: Four Square Gospell (6/8/2008 7:31:54 PM)

Acts is a blueprint for the Christian church. If the early church needed the power of God to see souls saved, fellowship, worship, discipleship, signs and wonders, joy, generous giving, ministry, miracles, etc, how much more do we need it in the church today, nearly 2,000 years after the time of Christ?



earthless -> RE: Four Square Gospell (6/8/2008 8:38:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ

Acts is a blueprint for the Christian church. If the early church needed the power of God to see souls saved, fellowship, worship, discipleship, signs and wonders, joy, generous giving, ministry, miracles, etc, how much more do we need it in the church today, nearly 2,000 years after the time of Christ?


We have the complete Word of God which is good for correction, instruction, rebuking, etc..

This discussion is controversial because the ministries of the Holy Spirit are often confused. The receiving/indwelling of the Spirit occurs at the moment of salvation. The filling of the Spirit is an ongoing process in the Christian life.

While some hold that the baptism of the Spirit also occurs at the moment of salvation, some Christians do not.

This sometimes results in the baptism of the Spirit being confused with “receiving the Spirit” as an act subsequent to salvation. In conclusion, how do we receive the Holy Spirit? We receive the Holy Spirit by simply believing in the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior (John 3:5-16).

When do we receive the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit becomes our permanent possession the moment we believe.

Nowhere in the New Testament is it taught that speaking in tongues is the only evidence a person has received the Holy Spirit. In fact, the New Testament teaches the opposite. We are told that every believer in Christ has the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 1:13-14), but not every believer speaks in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:29-31).

So, why was speaking in tongues the evidence of the Holy Spirit in those three passages in Acts? Acts chapter 2 records the apostles being baptized in the Holy Spirit and empowered by Him to proclaim the Gospel.

The Apostles were enabled to speak in other languages (tongues) so they could share the truth with people in their own languages - Acts chapter 10 records the Apostle Peter being sent to share the Gospel with non-Jewish people.

Peter and the other early Christians, being Jews, would have a hard time accepting Gentiles (non-Jewish people) into the church. God enabled the Gentiles to speak in tongues to demonstrate that they had received the same Holy Spirit that the apostles had received (Acts 10:47; 11:17).

Acts 10:44-47 describes this, “While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.

For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 'Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.'” Peter later points back to this occasion as proof that God was indeed saving the Gentiles (Acts 15:7-11).

Speaking in tongues is not presented anywhere in the Bible as something Christians should expect when they receive Jesus Christ as their Savior and are therefore baptized in the Holy Spirit.

In fact, out of all the conversion accounts in the New Testament, only two record speaking in tongues in that context. Tongues was a miraculous gift that had a specific purpose for a specific time. It was not, and never has been, the evidence of the reception of the Holy Spirit.

There are not two classes of Christians, of born-again believers....



HisFish -> RE: Four Square Gospell (6/9/2008 10:45:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ

Acts is a blueprint for the Christian church. If the early church needed the power of God to see souls saved, fellowship, worship, discipleship, signs and wonders, joy, generous giving, ministry, miracles, etc, how much more do we need it in the church today, nearly 2,000 years after the time of Christ?


We have the complete Word of God which is good for correction, instruction, rebuking, etc..

This discussion is controversial because the ministries of the Holy Spirit are often confused. The receiving/indwelling of the Spirit occurs at the moment of salvation. The filling of the Spirit is an ongoing process in the Christian life.

While some hold that the baptism of the Spirit also occurs at the moment of salvation, some Christians do not.

This sometimes results in the baptism of the Spirit being confused with “receiving the Spirit” as an act subsequent to salvation. In conclusion, how do we receive the Holy Spirit? We receive the Holy Spirit by simply believing in the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior (John 3:5-16).

When do we receive the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit becomes our permanent possession the moment we believe.

Nowhere in the New Testament is it taught that speaking in tongues is the only evidence a person has received the Holy Spirit. In fact, the New Testament teaches the opposite. We are told that every believer in Christ has the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 1:13-14), but not every believer speaks in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:29-31).

So, why was speaking in tongues the evidence of the Holy Spirit in those three passages in Acts? Acts chapter 2 records the apostles being baptized in the Holy Spirit and empowered by Him to proclaim the Gospel.

The Apostles were enabled to speak in other languages (tongues) so they could share the truth with people in their own languages - Acts chapter 10 records the Apostle Peter being sent to share the Gospel with non-Jewish people.

Peter and the other early Christians, being Jews, would have a hard time accepting Gentiles (non-Jewish people) into the church. God enabled the Gentiles to speak in tongues to demonstrate that they had received the same Holy Spirit that the apostles had received (Acts 10:47; 11:17).

Acts 10:44-47 describes this, “While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.

For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 'Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.'” Peter later points back to this occasion as proof that God was indeed saving the Gentiles (Acts 15:7-11).

Speaking in tongues is not presented anywhere in the Bible as something Christians should expect when they receive Jesus Christ as their Savior and are therefore baptized in the Holy Spirit.

In fact, out of all the conversion accounts in the New Testament, only two record speaking in tongues in that context. Tongues was a miraculous gift that had a specific purpose for a specific time. It was not, and never has been, the evidence of the reception of the Holy Spirit.

There are not two classes of Christians, of born-again believers....

Absolutely well said.



bsjones84 -> RE: Four Square Gospell (6/14/2008 7:13:42 AM)

I've been attending a Four Square church since I've been out here in California. I'm still rather new to the church, never heard of them before I found this one. I'm still feeling it out, but for the most part I believe it's a good church that bases their doctrine on the Bible.

Earthless, I've already participated with you in a thread on the subject of spiritual gifts and the supernatural working of the Holy Ghost. For that reason, I won't get into again. Additionally, the thread is about Four Square gospel churches, not debating doctrine of the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Let's keep it that way.

God bless,
Bub



Kat_D -> RE: Four Square Gospell (6/15/2008 11:40:04 AM)

I am not all that familiar with Four Square, but I vaguely remembered hearing about their Founder, Aimee Semple McPherson, so I did some research and was enlightened, not necessarily in a good way:

"It might be convenient to ignore or forget the negative aspects and deal only with the positive, in relation to Aimee Semple McPherson, but that begs the issue. Her troubles were not just of the moment, but were issues and events that encompassed the entire span of her ministry. Although she was a person of great ability, personal charm and presence, she had two glaring deficiencies in her character that are glossed over by her supporters today and were ignored by her followers in her time. She was obsessed with personal glorification and she chose to engage in acts of immoral behavior.

The troubles encountered by Aimee Semple McPherson are not unique to the Pentecostal and charismatic movement, although the majority of high profile failures in the ministry, in recent years, have been attached to that particular group. There are very good reasons for that, not the least of which is revealed in Aimee Semple McPherson's preoccupation with the attainment of her own self-glorification, coupled with a doctrine of continuing revelation. The combination is deadly, as an individual places themselves in the forefront and then claims authority by virtue of a God given fiat. Acceptance of that type of individual by adherents places the faithful in a position by which they remove from their spiritual minds any thought about, or ability to discern deception on the part of the leader. If the leader is assumed to be anointed by God, and continuing revelation is accepted as doctrine, then anything that the leader says, by means of a revelation, cannot be denied even if it contradicts Scripture, because the definition of a revelation is that which was previously unknown. Within the boundaries of that belief, anything that a leader claims to have been told by God must be believed, and cannot be questioned, because there is no foundation by which to judge. The Scripture has no authority in relation to new revelation. In relation to Aimee Semple McPherson, how does she stand in relation to who she claimed to be?

1. She claimed to be a healer. Who did she heal?
From the beginning of her ministry in 1915 until her death in 1944 there is not one verifiable, documented instance that she was able to heal any person. She never restored a missing arm or leg. She never healed a missing eye or cured the ravages of leprosy. She was unable to heal the congenitally deformed or mentally disabled. The same as with the current crop of miracle healers roaming the world, she could only heal the invisible and unverifiable. It's certainly safer and more convenient that way. The room and museum of discarded wheelchairs and crutches proved nothing as there was never any documentation regarding the reality of the diseases or disabilities of the persons that it was claimed used them, nor was there any documentation or follow-up done on their condition in relation to those claimed diseases and disabilities subsequent to the claims of healing."


You can read the rest HERE. Interesting stuff!



Kat_D -> RE: Four Square Gospell (6/15/2008 11:46:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BerianAardvark

I was raised Disciples of Christ, then went prodigal for a while...when I finally came to my senses, after "shopping around" for a while, In wound up in a Calvary Chapel. Their fellowship was founded by a Four Square Pastor.

I'm not positive just how similar they are...but I know that the Calvary Chapel fellowship are certainly worth looking at so I assume that 4 Square Churches are as well.

Tim


Yes, that would be Chuck Smith...and there is a reason why he left Four Square, KWIM?



Szaftoo -> RE: Four Square Gospell (6/16/2008 10:58:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kat_D
I am not all that familiar with Four Square, but I vaguely remembered hearing about their Founder, Aimee Semple McPherson, so I did some research and was enlightened, not necessarily in a good way:


When Four Square is discussed, Aimee Semple McPherson's colorful life is always mentioned and I understand why. She had an interesting family life and issues which will always be questioned. She was very unconventional in her ministry but also very effective. Her revials brought many to the Lord and she planted churches that are still going today.



earthless -> RE: Four Square Gospell (6/18/2008 2:57:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bsjones84

Earthless, I've already participated with you in a thread on the subject of spiritual gifts and the supernatural working of the Holy Ghost. For that reason, I won't get into again. Additionally, the thread is about Four Square gospel churches, not debating doctrine of the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Let's keep it that way.

God bless,
Bub


That's fine.. but it is one of the core tenets of their organization. So to not want to discuss that particular aspect is a bit unfair to those interested in the subject.

No harm.. no foul. [:)]



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