RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (Full Version)

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Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/5/2008 11:09:47 AM)

The fact is that, regarding those allowed to be members, I trust the leaders of the place of worship I attend. If such a thought would ever cross my mind regarding members, it would be irrelevant because of that trust.

Part of the problem with the idea of sin allowed to be lived out in the community is that no one wears a badge identifying themselves as members or non-members. Therefore, if open sin is continuously practiced among those who are mere attenders, who knows which ones are members and which are attenders?

When someone in open, deliberate sin begins to attend, then continues to attend without repentance, something is wrong...a lot of things are wrong.



landabee -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/5/2008 11:14:19 AM)

quote:

When someone in open, deliberate sin begins to attend, then continues to attend without repentance, something is wrong...a lot of things are wrong.

_____________________________


I agree that repentence should be the outcome of regular attendance, mentoring and teaching.

If that doesn't occur, then they have heard the Word and rejected it. That puts folks in a whole 'nother category. [;)]

But it seems that the couple in question are new to the fellowship. A simple question from leadership would assess how to best serve the couple.

It would also alleviate a lot of speculation and "borrowed trouble".[;)]



Ps103 -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/5/2008 11:22:53 AM)

quote:

"borrowed trouble".


[:D]

I love that expression! It says sooo much.

I got enough troubles without borrowing more[;)]



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/5/2008 11:27:49 AM)

So did our L-rd. Remember how He put it? [:D]



Ps103 -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/5/2008 11:31:34 AM)

Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

(But if He had been in the south, he would have said "Don't borrow trouble!"[sm=biggrin.gif])



Qtman -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/5/2008 11:35:20 AM)

quote:

I have gone over this scenerio before, and bluntly, I would not attend a place that welcomes as members people in open, continued sin. This does make it difficult to find places of worship, but they are out here.


I have no problem with this post. However I point out it has not been shown the couple involved have or are continuing to sin. So far it's all speculation.

quote:

The fact is that, regarding those allowed to be members, I trust the leaders of the place of worship I attend. If such a thought would ever cross my mind regarding members, it would be irrelevant because of that trust.

Part of the problem with the idea of sin allowed to be lived out in the community is that no one wears a badge identifying themselves as members or non-members. Therefore, if open sin is continuously practiced among those who are mere attenders, who knows which ones are members and which are attenders?

When someone in open, deliberate sin begins to attend, then continues to attend without repentance, something is wrong...a lot of things are wrong.


This post however, I have serious problem with. Even Jesus Himself talked to and witnessed to sinners. IMHO if they are in church they are being exposed to the Gospel. I know of no-one that was saved without having first been exposed to the Gospel of Christ. Some just take longer than others.



cow451 -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/5/2008 11:47:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarleneSchreiber

quote:

"Purity" is one of the hallmarks of a cult.


What? 1 Timothy 4:12, Proverbs 22:11, 1 John 3:3...just to name a few. Too cultish?


Cults claim that the members must remain "pure" in terms of rejecting anyone and anything outside their own beliefs and approved behaviors. So you miss my point, which is to examine one's own motivation in these matters.

"On hearing this, Jesus said, 'It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have come not to call the righteous, but sinners."
--Matthew 9:12-14, NIV

And, for clarity, I never suggested they be teaching the married couples Sunday School class (or any other, for that matter).



Tinkerbell_ -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/5/2008 11:54:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

The fact is that, regarding those allowed to be members, I trust the leaders of the place of worship I attend. If such a thought would ever cross my mind regarding members, it would be irrelevant because of that trust.

Part of the problem with the idea of sin allowed to be lived out in the community is that no one wears a badge identifying themselves as members or non-members. Therefore, if open sin is continuously practiced among those who are mere attenders, who knows which ones are members and which are attenders?

When someone in open, deliberate sin begins to attend, then continues to attend without repentance, something is wrong...a lot of things are wrong.

And even the leaders make huge mistakes. We went to a church where the head deacon (widower) was living with a married woman. When it was brought to the pastor and elders for concern (because it was a fact they were living together and they weren't hiding it) the pastor told them to 'mind their own business; what they do at home was no ones concern but theirs and God's'.

So even if the situation is completely innocent, it still is the members right to bring it before the leadership with question.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/5/2008 12:51:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ps103
Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

(But if He had been in the south, he would have said "Don't borrow trouble!"[sm=biggrin.gif])
[:D] I love the way southerners have such trite sayings. We northerners have none -- unless we borrow them from southerners.
_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qt
However I point out it has not been shown the couple involved have or are continuing to sin. So far it's all speculation.

--except that the OP, Darlene, has written that she understands this. I thought we were through with critiquing her post and on to simple commentaries. No?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qt
This post however, I have serious problem with. Even Jesus Himself talked to and witnessed to sinners. IMHO if they are in church they are being exposed to the Gospel. I know of no-one that was saved without having first been exposed to the Gospel of Christ. Some just take longer than others.

Churches are run differently from shuls (otherwise called synagogues), and sometimes I forget about that. The church concept, I know for most of them, is to pack in the unbelievers and the unrepentant. That is their ministry.

The shul concept is to teach the already-found. We are expected to show Messiah to them and see them become believers at home (the office, the tennis court, etc.) THEN bring them in, when they are prepared to continue in commitment to the L-rd. The shul is ministry to the found; the home (etc.) is ministry to the lost.
_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell
And even the leaders make huge mistakes. We went to a church where the head deacon (widower) was living with a married woman. When it was brought to the pastor and elders for concern (because it was a fact they were living together and they weren't hiding it) the pastor told them to 'mind their own business; what they do at home was no ones concern but theirs and God's'.

I remember when you wrote of this before. What a situation! But we are a small community, and this cannot happen where I attend as it continues the way it is set up now, simply because we are too tight and know too much about each other. Also, we do not have a pastoral leadership bit a board of five who lead (although I recently wrote "four").



DarleneSchreiber -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/5/2008 12:57:12 PM)

quote:

If nosiness got the best of me, I suppose I would just ask the lady "How long have you been married? You seem to have such a nice family."
.

If I was that nosy.


Oh, make no doubt about it, Bee...I am that nosy! But that's part of my nature. If you were to meet me, I would ask lots of questions, such as where you come from, are you married, do you have kids. I don't hide it...I LOVE biographies! I never thought of it as "nosiness", I just like to get to know people. And I did a lot of question asking of this couple, this past Sunday. We (they, my husband and I and another couple) had a great conversation. I found we have a lot of common ground and it was fun talking to them. I just never got around to, "How long have you been married?" But I will ask that, if I ever get the chance. And, no matter what I have been concerned about since Sunday, I would be asking that question at some point, anyway. As we Southerners say, "I never meet a stranger!"


And the pastor is getting to know them. Whether or not they join is not my affair or decision. It just may make the decision as to whether or not we stay in that particular church.

Again (and I'm sooooo tired of beating this horse), this is all speculation at this point. I have simply been in the process of learning which side of the fence I come down on should this play out or should we encounter it in the future. It's a learning process...an education...for me...that's it. I have not approached any of the parties that may be involved and have no intention of it.

My husband and I have talked and we both agree with this...
quote:

...I would not attend a place that welcomes as members people in open, continued sin.


So now I know which side of the fence I'm on. I just hope I don't need to exercise that knowledge...ever.



DarleneSchreiber -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/5/2008 12:59:10 PM)

quote:

--except that the OP, Darlene, has written that she understands this. I thought we were through with critiquing her post and on to simple commentaries. No?


Awwww...thank you! [:)]



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/5/2008 1:26:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarleneSchreiber

I'm obviously getting extremely frustrated. It seems this little desire of mine to gain the wisdom of brothers and sisters has taken on a different direction. It's given some a platform to be pious and do a bit of stone throwing.



About a year ago, I had a similar situation happen. I posted, on this website, a concern of mine that my neighbor might be committing adultry. A landscape designer (female) kept coming over to neighbor's house after the wife had taken off for work. The hubby and female walked around the property and then would disappear for a looong time[8D] I could not help but see this as my house and deck sits higher than their yard and house, but I admit I would look out my bathroom window to see if her car was still there[8D] And it would be...for hours.

After I posted my concerns, I had several people say that they were concerned that I would possibly come to that conclusion without proof. They also asked me if I was prepared to possibly split up a 30 year marriage on something that might be going on.

After thinking about it, in light of Scripture, I realized I was wrong! I was wrong to entertain those thoughts without proof! I was wrong to be nosey!

The Lord tells us to always think the best of people. If sin is discovered then deal with it.

So, no to the OP'er, I am not stone throwing or being pious. How can I be when I did the exact same thing?



tracydolls -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/9/2008 11:31:00 AM)

Not being a sinner is now a requirement for going to Church.

Well count me out. I'm a sinner. [8|]



P31W -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/9/2008 11:37:28 AM)

quote:

Now, here's the rub...I don't think they're married. They have different last names and neither have anything remotely resembling a wedding ring...but they do live together. But, not knowing for sure and I'm hoping I'm wrong...this is where the whole worry-wart thing comes in.

IF, in fact, they are not married but "just living together", I certainly do not believe they would qualify (hate that word in this situation) for a leadership position within the church. But, here's where I'm uncertain...if they should desire it, should they even be extended the privileges of membership?

We haven't had a chance to really talk about it yet, but my husband seems to think allowing them to join would be okay as long as they're not in leadership. But I guess I see it a bit differently...maybe, maybe not...I'm so unsure. While I know that their sin is not greater than my sin, as I see it, their sin would fall under the category of "habitual" sin and they would be openly living in "knowledgeable" defiance of God's law. I would liken it to accepting and allowing a homosexual 'couple' to join.


Sorry but I have not read the rest of the thread.

Has anyone asked them if they are married? I would. It would not bother me to say "the two of you having differant last names makes we wonder if you are married". If they are married they will probably laugh it they are not married then they need to learn what scripture teaches us about living with one another outside of marriage.



DarleneSchreiber -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/9/2008 12:32:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

quote:

Now, here's the rub...I don't think they're married. They have different last names and neither have anything remotely resembling a wedding ring...but they do live together. But, not knowing for sure and I'm hoping I'm wrong...this is where the whole worry-wart thing comes in.

IF, in fact, they are not married but "just living together", I certainly do not believe they would qualify (hate that word in this situation) for a leadership position within the church. But, here's where I'm uncertain...if they should desire it, should they even be extended the privileges of membership?

We haven't had a chance to really talk about it yet, but my husband seems to think allowing them to join would be okay as long as they're not in leadership. But I guess I see it a bit differently...maybe, maybe not...I'm so unsure. While I know that their sin is not greater than my sin, as I see it, their sin would fall under the category of "habitual" sin and they would be openly living in "knowledgeable" defiance of God's law. I would liken it to accepting and allowing a homosexual 'couple' to join.


Sorry but I have not read the rest of the thread.

Has anyone asked them if they are married? I would. It would not bother me to say "the two of you having differant last names makes we wonder if you are married". If they are married they will probably laugh it they are not married then they need to learn what scripture teaches us about living with one another outside of marriage.


Read!



rcjames -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/9/2008 2:07:56 PM)

If couple who is living in sin comes to my Church and seems to want to be at least attendees (regular attenders, not talking about joining) then I will visit them and ixplain throught Scripture their sin, and the reasons they will not be welcomed until they are married or living separate.

Which ever they choose (marriage, siving separate, or continuing to lie together in sin) I will offer my counsel ect. but if the choose to live in sin; they are not welcome in the Church.

The same goes for anyone who is living is sin, they are not welcome until they repent.

Church by definition is a gathering of the Saints, and folks living in sin do not qualify.

Thanks
RC



cow451 -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/9/2008 3:34:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

If couple who is living in sin comes to my Church and seems to want to be at least attendees (regular attenders, not talking about joining) then I will visit them and ixplain throught Scripture their sin, and the reasons they will not be welcomed until they are married or living separate.

Which ever they choose (marriage, siving separate, or continuing to lie together in sin) I will offer my counsel ect. but if the choose to live in sin; they are not welcome in the Church.

The same goes for anyone who is living is sin, they are not welcome until they repent.

Church by definition is a gathering of the Saints, and folks living in sin do not qualify.

Thanks
RC

Thanks for straightening me out. No need to waste time trying to get the unsaved to church, then.[;)]



DarleneSchreiber -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/9/2008 3:57:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cow451

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

If couple who is living in sin comes to my Church and seems to want to be at least attendees (regular attenders, not talking about joining) then I will visit them and ixplain throught Scripture their sin, and the reasons they will not be welcomed until they are married or living separate.

Which ever they choose (marriage, siving separate, or continuing to lie together in sin) I will offer my counsel ect. but if the choose to live in sin; they are not welcome in the Church.

The same goes for anyone who is living is sin, they are not welcome until they repent.

Church by definition is a gathering of the Saints, and folks living in sin do not qualify.

Thanks
RC

Thanks for straightening me out. No need to waste time trying to get the unsaved to church, then.[;)]


Okay...how about this. We accept anyone and everyone, no exceptions, into membership at our churches. That is voting membership, (if you belong to a church that engages in congregational voting) will all the rights, responsibilities and privileges that go along with membership.

If it so happens, for example, to be a man who has been convicted and served his time for child molestation, then it's okay if he wants to serve in the nursery, watching out for your children. After all, it's not for us to judge.

If you say it's okay to accept an unmarried, cohabitating couple into your fellowship, then why not a sodomite couple? What not a practicing polygamist? An active alcoholic? A "working girl"?

What's the difference? Where is the line? What about 2 Corinthians 6:14 thru 7:1?



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/9/2008 4:07:15 PM)

I see nothing whatsoever wrong with befriending these people elsewhere, giving them the Gospel there, and praying with them until they are sure about their standing with G-d.

Since when do we have to bring them into the congregation for salvation?

Since when is it the job of the pastor, the music, the entertainment to "get them saved"?

What's wrong with us? Are we not up to the job of telling others the Gospel and leading people toward salvation?

Admittedly, I haven't seen a lot of people saved on my own, but I have "planted the seed" and love doing it. It is not my job to save or convict but to simply plant the seed. It is the H Spirit's job to convict and lead into salvation.

There is no place in the Bible that tells us to bring the unsaved to the church. There is, however, a lot of giving the Gospel out on the street, in prisons, and in homes.



DarleneSchreiber -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/9/2008 4:15:23 PM)

I believe you're correct, Abiyah. We're talking about two different things here...church attendance and church membership. We should welcome all into our church but we are not to welcome all into fellowship.



LaurainAL -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/9/2008 4:17:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarleneSchreiber

I believe you're correct, Abiyah. We're talking about two different things here...church attendance and church membership. We should welcome all into our church but we are not to welcome all into fellowship.


Exactly. This argument over "you pharisees won't let sinner's in church" ad nauseam on CW. It's not the topic and not the truth.



Ps103 -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/9/2008 8:51:54 PM)

Not exactly. No one knows that they are sinners--well, at least not in the sense that they are living in sin.

All anyone knows is that they do not wear wedding rings and have different last names, which is evidence of nothing.



LaurainAL -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/9/2008 8:57:13 PM)

I think the OP has made it clear that she doesn't know if they are married or not. She is just asking "what ifs".



DarleneSchreiber -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/9/2008 9:07:28 PM)

Thank you, Laurain! I don't know how I can make that more clear. *sigh*

You're a breath of fresh air!



delete123 -> RE: Advice on unmarried couple... (6/9/2008 10:08:15 PM)

I Thessalonians 4:11 MYOB

CRH



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