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deermousie -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/7/2008 9:48:49 PM)
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Thank you, everyone, who took the time. Especially those who really -responded-. Like deermouse and the others. Those posts took time, possibly hours, and I thank you. Money comes and goes, time can only be spent once. Thank you.
You're welcome; my pleasure! :) The following is part 1 of my response.
My question is not if/where/when/how/ and/or that there is a god. I know immense scientific FACTS, not assumptions, not theoriess, FACTS (will link later) that do NOT defy god, but make the idea all the more fascinating, and creates a situation where the lack of a "God" is impossible and almost absurb, Something had to do all of this. If the electron had a slight shift, in greater, or negative charges, the sun would not burn. Slightly more hyrdrogen, slightly less oxygen, there would be no life. The fact the universe is infinitely large and we know it's expanding at an alarming rate. (See parallax measuring of the stars, google, proof is in that all neighboring galaxies are moving AWAY from us).
Dopplar shift tells us that, too.
A problem with so many scientific "facts," for or against one's answer, is that the results are not reproducible, and therefore by definition, not scientific. To establish a fact, the same circumstances should always produce the same results. Therefore, an event in one time is not science but history. What you had for breakfast this morning is history, not science. Just thought I'd throw that in, as it might come in handy later.
The strong belief in the Godly community that science outright defies god is false.
Right. The brilliant men (and a few women) who founded the Scientific Revolution were almost all Christians. That's not taught in public schools.
Quantam Physics and the newest science since the theory of relativity defy predestination, not god.
How so?
I threw predestination out the window years and years ago, and I accept as a right of intellectual thought, that I am reserved into not wanting to believe predestination, therefore, I probably never will.
You can believe I'm a daisy, too, and that's your right within free will, but it's a weak proposition (my husband says I am not a daisy; just FYI).
I have a strong belief, deep inside, that's burned since I was a kid, that makes me feel disenfranchised from the church. I just feel it's wrong.
You may have gotten some information your young mind didn't know how to process and you could be right, but in a logical debate this doesn't fly as is. Now I'll grant to you there are people calling themselves Christians who likely aren't, and there are people doing evil pretending to be Christians who aren't - at least by God's standards (and His are the only ones that count, and that's *my* take) - because the New Testament (NT) talks about them and says Christians are to shun them (but not shun non-Christians who live like the sons of hell). It's based on morality as set up by God (1 Corinthians 5:11 ).
Just to let you know I'm not chucking rocks at you, I've been in churches that smelled funny, too Their theology was not biblical. I was at one that had a kids' sermon on Native American religion (they thought it was nice; they neglected a few pertinent points like demon possession and false gods) and when they took the little kids out for Sunday School, I made my four year old sit tight beside me. No way were they going to get her alone and tell her who knows what. If those people there had known me at all, I'm sure they wouldn't have been able to push me out the door fast enough. You're known by your enemies as well as your friends.
I presented these questions as if to ask god, these questions are more to the Christian faith than god. God's up there, my question is in the exhistance of this omnipotent being that's so uniquely involved in every single human's life, who loves us or damns us all in turn, standing in righteousness against satan and evil. Why bother to question Christians specifically? I was raised in a christian environment, so, this is where I direct most of my questions. Really, I've found I "identify" (note the word, carefully chosen) most with the more peaceful, less greed inducing manner of buddhism and hindhuism, but the elephant gods and reincarnation as a cow when you finally achieve the highest levels seem... well, a lot more absurd than any of my gripes with established western religions.
I'm my personal evolution, I've decided to say my peace with organized religion, smile upon those with faith, even envy them. It heals, it uplifts, and it's a wonderful thing. Other than the establishment (I'm not at all anti-establishment, either.) I've talked to god, prayed to god, and explained my soul. I have thousands of faiths here before me in America, and I am free to choose. I live my life as pure as I can, not living my a strict set of rules or commandments, but a moral standard that leads me toward good (see above).
There's a problem here, Modes-T - how do you know what is good? What is pure? By whose yardstick will you measure it? How do you know that's an eternal constant? What is your moral standard based on? Not a trick question, but a very basic epistomological one on which all else must depend.
However, I am here addressing an innate fear I still possess, that feels wrong to have, or wrong not to obey. I'm not sure which. I don't like fear though, not at all. God knows no steps I take will be directly against him, I have convinced myself if he knows me inside and out, by the time I die, I will be worthy.
Fear is a bear. It hurts.
God knows no steps I take will be directly against him is a problem because God takes it personally when people refuse to given Him credit and worship. I'm reading in Jeremiah right now, and God curses Israel because they are worshipping false gods. He consigned them to the sword and famine and slavery because of it. According to what I see in the Bible, your words arent' going to cut ice with God, that He'll give you a pass because you're so nice. To take your idea to the climax of by the time I die, I will be worthy is a big mistake. Not one of us can be worthy by our own efforts. God says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23 ) and that Christ died for us while we were sinners. If we could have perfected ourselves by our own efforts, we'd still be under the Ten Commandments and Christ would never have become a man or have died. Yeah, He knows you inside and out - and just like the rest of us, it ain't pretty.
K. Well, some of these questions, like "How do we know we're right?" are hard to answer, if not impossible. So, let proof mean validation. Without lengthy quotes, deermouse says the 2000 years of church history and it's persistence, referencing the creed of nicene, is just resolution of this validity.
I'm sorry, I wasn't clear what I meant to say. The church fathers from the beginning of the Church have been reading, studying and getting scholars together to see what the Bible said, what it meant, and how it applied to every day life and teaching. How shall one live? By every word from the mouth of God. So they dug in. Over the years, they have compared belief systems with what the Bible said, and ferreted out belief systems that contradicted the Bible. That's not validity of rightness, that's finding out what the Bible says and how it works in life. The rightness was assumed.
quote:
So look at a church that maintains the basics tenets of Christianity: Jesus is God, Jesus became a Man, He died for sin and rose from the dead to prove it was forgiven. The Holy Spirit is God, and God is a Three-Persons-in-One (we don't understand that because we aren't that way, but the Bible teaches us that's how God is). The Nicene Creed came about from the Council of Nicea to clear up what to believe. Look it up if you aren't familar with it; I hope to die someday with those words on my lips. It's a statement of faith.
This is a little ascew from proof. I do not want to sum it up to briefly, so as to mislead, but I don't want this to be to long (cuz it will be...) But, the First Council of Nicene was the first Ecumenical Council, invoked my Emperor Constantine (known catholic, either future or former bishop, not sure when along his way it was). To further clarify, and Ecumenical Council is, (borrowed from wikipedia) is "a conference of the bishops of the whole Church convened to discuss and settle matters of Church doctrine and practice."
(Just an aside: Nicene is an adjective that describes the place called Nicea. So, the Council of Nicea. I told you I wasn't sure which council dealt with which heresy; I agree that I need to do my homework. The references on the internet hardly covered the big dust-up between Arias and Athanasius.
To say this council is proof of Christianity validity I cannot agree with.
I agree, hence my words above.
A council of christians, lead by a christian, to agree upon what aspect of Christ are to be believed, and which are the be disregarded, is not proof. I could (and I'm sorry for how arrogant this may sound, it's merely an example, this is a very sincere apology, as I do not want to offend, just make a point) take a council of Muslims to "prove" shi'ite ideals over sunni ideals. Or a council of buddhist to discuss where, how, and when the buddha reached enlightenment, and what of his method was most important, or even a council of 4 or 5 years old to determine the color of Santa Claus's front door mat. All of these would present the same level of validation.
We are in agreement.
Now, "Proof." This question was not accurate enough. Moses parted the seas. Is there an other organizied society or doctrine that coincides with this, other than the bible?
Good question. We do know that the Egyptians knew because the Bible talksabout someone telling the Israelites they feared God because they'd heard what their God had done to the Egyptian army. But how they knew I've always wondered about as the army guys were all drowned. Maybe some 8 year old boy was following the army and saw it? Dunno. There's no mention of it in Egyptian hieroglyphics that have been found, but then if someone's country's military got its backside whooped they'd be embarrassed and probably cover it up. The Red Sea is kinda in a huge desert area so how many people would have been witnesses besides the ones who escaped (Israelites)?
The return of Christ. Is there any other doctrines or schools of thought that agree, witnessed, or can also, to some accuracy, account for this?
Not sure what you mean. It hasn't happened yet, if you're talking about the second coming of Christ.
Any other major event in the bible's history are subject to this consideration. The destruction of Sodom and Gaumora(sp?),
There are "tells" (mounds over ancient cities) all over Israel, and there are areas that supposedly have a lot of pitch or asphalt and sulfur, but I'm not finding any documentation, so I'm letting this go temporarily. All it means is "I don't know" but that can be fixed later.
the great flood?
Nearly every culture has a story about a huge flood. No matter where in the world that culture is.
Basically, has there ever been non-believers rationalize down to agreement with the bible's story?
Yeah. The guy who wrote "Who Moved the Stone?" for the resurrection. "A Skeptic’s Search for God" by Ralph Muncaster. There have been others, and you'll want to dig them out because if I do I'll never finish this (lame, yeah, I know. But I've got a family waiting for dinner in a couple of hours).
Abraham lived over 2000 years. Isaac lived almost as long.
This has been dealt with.
Do any other documents, anywhere, ever, even with the most infinite stretches of imagination and interpretation, does ANYTHING say this is possible?
Josephus talks about Jesus' rising from the dead around 200 AD, and he wasn't a Christian but writing a history book.
Not that they in particular did it, it's really easy to say "that was before document history." But, according to the bible, and without ages and ages of digging, the overall life span of human degrades over time (as a result of sin), and these totally OUTRAGEOUS lifespans do, in fact, continue onto the first civilizations.
It ended at Noah's Flood; it's interesting to add up people's life spans - Adam was still alive when Noah was born, but all the guys in the geneology (excpet Noah) were dead when the rain started. Noah was 600yo at the flood, but the longevity decreases steadily in the downslope of an almost perfect sine wave from there (one person throws it off). Do how much documentation would survive in a flood that lasted a year? The 40 days and nights was just long it rained. The civilizations up to then were all drowned, and the decreasingly long lives afterwards might not have been as important as to who was king of Sumeria and such.
Moving on... On the question of predestination, god knowing our hearts, inside and out.
Predestination means it was scripted beforehand and wow - look! - you're doing it. Your choice (free will) at the same time. Odd, isn't it?
This one I was also horribly vague on. If he understands the end, we are unnecessary.
That depends on what God is doing. It raises the question, "What are people necessary for to God?" What is your take? What does the Bible say?
Infinite wisdom and knowledge ends us at a point where... why bother?
Are you talking about the end of a mortal life or the conclusion of wisdom. Sorry, I'm a little dense here (and probably elsewhere. I'm peddling as fast as I can and giving it my best shot. I hope it's helping you somehow).
Not just a point where/when/why did jesus have to die for us, simply... Why bother? Keep in mind, our exhistance as humans, to an ETERNAL being, is a flicker.
Not if that person has an eternal soul. What does God want from us? From you? For eternity?
So... if you whack your foot with a hammer, it's gunna hurt. Thought experiment complete. This is because you are limited in wisdom, but wise enough to know hitting yourself with hammers is unpleasent. With INFINITE wisdom, this human race lacks real end-game purpose, because it's simply... understood. Not by us, but by the things that creates our purpose.
The Bible tells us what the end game is. Or at least, it gives you the information that's next to the end game and you can see the shadow from there. See Ephesian 1:3-6, 12,14 and 2:4-7 for starters, but I suspect there's even more to it that I haven't dug out of Scripture yet.
And God is the only One who created our purpose - to know God and enjoy Him forever, as it is put by the Westminster Divines (a whole big group of godly men who were Bible scholars and spent five years writing the Westminster Confession of Faith; a dandy tool for understanding the Bible and what God wanted us to know from it. It's a Reformation thing).
Am I answering your questions properly? Sometimes I'm not clear what you want, but that could be my problem, not yours.
For me to admit to a belief in god, it only makes sense that he understands the human creation very well, but not infinitely.
Sorry, I'm not following your logic. What does your belief have to do with God's understanding or lack thereof?
Let me ask you this: can a being be God who is limited in any way?
I'm going to tie back to this in a moment, after presented the next piece of my little puzzle.
I asked, stupidly, no less, "Why won't god answer some prayers?" Giving amputees as an example. This needs to be rephrased.
"Why will god never, ever, under any circumstance, answer a prayer that is outside the realm of coincidence or human capability?" I.E., why will god never again, since moses and the times of bible actually HAPPENING, not the period in which is was written, in which undeniable acts of gods seem to be no more, perform a true miracle? A miracle that cannot be explained to coincidence, that cannot be done by man? To part a sea, to send an angel, to reveal himself despite the infinite pleas of his people? It seems as though the bible is supposed to be enough for us to suffice.
Good questions. Is God limited to always doing the same thing over and over? What is it that He wants from people? Even the people who watched the Red Sea swallow the Egyptian army sinned against God in unbelief later - the quail episode, the grumbling about the water, and then the panic about the "giants" in the Promised Land. God got so ticked He let them all die in the desert (except the two men who believed Him) and then led their children into Israel. You'd think seeing the ten plagues make bloody water, flies, frogs, locusts, hail, fire from the sky, and first borns dying in every family without the sign on the door would make believers of them permanently. But it didn't. So why isn't God doing stuff like that now?
The Bible says that all the things that happened in the OT were for the benefit of the people from the NT time. So there's a time element involved, and God isn't a one-trick pony. What is He doing now? In countries where Christianity is just getting a foothold, there are stories of miracles happening. Healing (faked? Could be) and rising from the dead (hard to fake). Dreams of God telling people about Himself, to the amazement of missionaries who are first to go in and find people already believing. I can't document these, I just hear the stories from friends who are missionaries to weird places (don't ask). You'll have to take that one on my integrity, and you don't know me, so ask around any missionaries. Call Wycliffe Bible Translators (http://www.wycliffe.org/ContactUs.aspx). God started some cultures with dreams and visions and signs and wonders, and doesn't seem to be doing that now in America. Maybe it's because we have a Bible to read? It's conjecture on my part now, but worth thinking about.
Tying in with predestination, we know god can perform true miracles. To make things happen outside the ream of coincidence or human ability, to defy our strict laws of physics, motion, and time, and to intervene? Knowing he could, history and our worldly observations tell us that he hasn't. The things that happen do not happen arbitrarily, but follow a strict set of rules. Why is god so unwilling to reveal himself?
I can't answer that. God says He is higer than us like the heavens are above the earth, and He doesn't tell us everything. Maybe He has on this one and I just haven't learned it yet. Christians (hopefully) keep growing and learning all their lives, so maybe this one will come up next year. But what I don't know I can relax about because of what I do know: He is God and He is good.
I'll take your question one step further - why did Jesus teach in parables so the crowds wouldn't understand Him? Yeah, it was deliberate. Matthew 13:15 God plays a deep game.
Also, in response to amputees having limbs grow back with miraculous healing, I googled and googled, yahoo'd once, and I asked jeeves. Nothing. Could you provide some hard evidence of this? On a lighter note, some of the prostetic limbs now-a-days are fascinating.
I've never heard any evidence of this happening, either. I've heard people talk about having a short leg lengthened, and I was skeptical. If someone could show me some numbers and photos or a peer-reviewed scientific journal article I might believe it, but it's too subjective and people aren't all on the up and up. Just because there are liars doesn't mean there isn't something real going on, and even when something real is going on doesn't mean others aren't going to lie about it.
Now, to address the "thou shalt not kill" contradiction. "Thou shalt not kill unless the person we deem holy enough to speak directly to god (pope) tells us it's "ok" to kill these people because they're sinners." This, once again, seems like a facade. So, a bunch of holy people go sit alone and meditate, and walk out with gods permission for Genocide? And the bible tells me to trust these people? Do what?
Who said this? Jesus stands between God the Father as Intercessor, and the Holy Spirit intercedes for us with groans too deep for words (Rom.8:26). Anyone can talk to God. And God doesn't just kill sinners, and in the times since the resurrection of Christ, neither do Christians. That's the job of government; all the Church can do is excommunicate.
Any religious body that is doing genocide is in serious sin, and I wouldn't trust them as they have serious moral problems. You're back to the shun principle (1 Cor. 5:11).
The whole point here is that God says we are all sinners. He didn't wipe us out so our blood could pay our debt of sin, but He became a man and died innocently so His righteousness could be imputed to us. That's a legal term. It means the Judge of the universe has banged His gavel and declared you not guilty because blood was shed to pay the debt. Even though it wasn't your blood. Jesus paid the sin, you get the righteousness. The great swap. And that's what God does to sinners. The only hitch is, He said His blood is enough; do you trust Him that it's paid? Your answer will show up in how you live your life, like a sinner trying to do enought to be worthy, or like a forgiven sinner given worthiness as a free gift?
Yes, the crusades were not part of the bible, that was a bit of misinformation and a little spin coming from me. The Crusades are the work of those people in the paragraph previous. The ones who said god said it was ok. Just like every other "holy war." God is a mighty scary commander and chief and, in my eyes, makes great leverage.
Yeah; what do you do in a war when both sides think God is on their side?
Now, onto things like the great flood and the age of the earth and the falsities of the word, written before anyone could fathom the tools of the future. I was asked where I got a 6,000 year old earth. I got it from my asking of questions. I've never seen it the in the bible, nor has anyone else (it's not there). But, many christian scholars agree with this logic, as this... http://www.independencebaptist.org/6,000%20Year%20Old%20Earth/6,000_year_old_earth.htm ... is the standing argument for it.
Bishop Usher. He had a point, adding up the geneology, but the problem is, Hebrew is a pretty loosey-goosey language to begin with (opposed to Koine Greek of the NT, which is one of the most precise languages ever devised by mankind) and you don't know if there are other generations not mentioned. Plus, not all generations are 25 years. So it was a guess, and entertaining, but not Gospel. And the nonChristians have been making hay with it for years. Personally I don't know any Christians (and I know lots and have for years) who take it seriously, so I take issue with "many Christian scholars."
We just don't know.
Carbon dating, by the way, is one way of measuring age. Argon dating will give you an age of ten years for the earth, if I'm remembering correctly. Go figure. The guy who invented carbon dating, Dr. Libby (Libbey?) said it wasn't accurate beyond 6000 years anyway. Secular scientists bases fossil ages on layers, and geologists base layer ages on fossils. We just don't know.
Now, for the counter argument. Everything we measure, or observe, outside of the bible, totally disagrees with it.
Here's a "fun" thing to do: write down what you see in the Bible as definitive, and find the references on countering it and agreeing with it. I think you'll find this is a broad statement that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Maybe start with archeology? There's been a lot of that (like, Hittites and King David. In the early 1900s, I think it was Harvard that said the Hittites never existed and the Bible made that up. I've heard you can get a college degree in Hittite history now; I'd like to hear if that's not so).
Our observations put the earth at about 4.5 million years ago.
Half Lives. Long story is here http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2000-08/965364844.Es.r.html
Basically, when a radioactive material is formed, it starts to degrade due to it's inherent instability. It degrades in half lives. The more radioactive it is, the faster it degrades. Say, for example, we take an element with a half life of 10 years. It starts at 100%. 10 years passes, it's at 50%. 20 years pass, it's at 25%. 30 years pass, it's at 12.5%, and so forth. Looking at what we have here on earth, naturally occurring elements, measure them against newly created elements, coincides with the "Old Earth" theory. This, I feel, is most substantial and repeatable.
But you don't know how much you started with. How about a rock that's partly uranium and partly something else. How can figure it?
There are many other indicators, the ice in greenland, coral growth, etc. http://www.religioustolerance.org/oldearth.htm has many, many more details, with the common counter-arguments.
There are lots of websites for knocking Christian beliefs, and I think there's a number of people who propagandize in the name of science when they are prooftexting, so to speak (making the facts fit a preconceived agenda). And there are a slough of websites explaining Christian beliefs, and it grieves me that many are aimed at children. This does a great disservice. Why was Michael Faraday (possibly the most brilliant scientist ever) a believer? Pascal? Pasteur? Einstein? It's not like there aren't diaries from these guys that talk about their faith in the Christian-Judeo God.
I hear reports about Global Warming, and saw Al Gore talking in an unseasonal snow storm. The polar bears have been studied in 13 or so groups: some have stayed the same population, some have lost, and some have gained numbers (oddly enough, in the areas of greatest Arctic melting). And what about the Anarctic cold getting worse? They mentioned a big iceburg breaking off, and melting ice doesn't break like that, burt melts on the surfaces. More likely the water underneath receeded because maybe the water is now ice somewhere else? I've heard that for the South Pole getting colder as the North Pole warms up. I should look up the numbers. The government used to pay for temperature mapping in my area, for years, and recently stopped it. The trend is our summers are getting shorter because we're getting colder. Pffft. Thirty years ago the news was in a panic about Global Cooling! You can look that one up).
Also, one of the responders here stated, in response to my "All the water in the world couldn't cover mt. everest" said that the mountains could have been formed by the flood. This is not true. Water disolves earth. The ocean floor changes constantly with the tide, but "underwater mountains" are quite solid, as they are formed by the earth's plates pushing against each other with such force, that the only direction left to go is up. No amount of water, or current, could stack a mountain with such a sharp, defined peak, 8,500 meters in the sky. That's just a no.
Are you saying the above, or are you quoting someone? We don't know what was there at first. Maybe Everest was taller originally? <shrug> We don't know. Tides affect shallow water; there are deep currents that do stuff, but yeah, there's things moving around underwater. Water can act as a medium for moving silt and small particles around with currents, but the big movers are the landslides, volcanos, continental drift and earthquakes.
It's a little presumptuous to say we understand all the things that make this globe tick; it's a complicated engine and we don't know everything yet. The more you learn, the less you realize you know.
Also, the idea of this ark, would of absolved all civilization (that was the idea, I think), and we would have SOME proof of this occurance,
Absolved means to forgive sin or wrong-doing. Please reword this as there is something important on your mind.
and life would have started, with ALL species of life, stranded on a single continent, without means (other than flying creatures) of reproducing on a different continent. Somewhere, over 40 days and 40 nights, a larger marine species would have died inexplicably inland, as the tides would have changed DRAMATICALLY, fish would have had NO sense of direction, and somewhere, one would have died leaving a whale or octopus corpse in some wierd ass location we couldn't explain. We haven't found any of this... Why?
Who says we haven't? There are fossil beds of animals all lying in a group that died together en masse . A whole bunch at the same time? Why? Maybe their corpses drifted down together into the mud when they were killed together. To make a whole fossil, an animal has to die in a way that the body is not ripped by predators/carrion eaters and then quickly covered with water so the minerals dissolved in water can start replacing bones.
I'm thinking, too, of whales swimming up the Sacromento River. You see whales stranding themselves on beaches sometimes, and no one is sure why.
Deermous, in response to my argument of "God will never answer some prayers" and the he answer all prayers in "Yes, no, and wait." My gripe is with the infinite circle if "easy explanations" it creates. Any scenario can be answered in this manner, and you would NEVER know the difference if the answer is no. So, when there is no answer, and no coincidence occurs, you can assume "no" or "keep waiting." You are always satisfied in this manner.
But if it's true (and as far as I know it is, although my salvation doesn't depend on it being true) then why would that be a problem? If the answer is "no" then things continue as they were (assuming you ask God to change something). Even the Apostle Paul asked God three times to change a problem he was having, and God said, "no" and then gave him some further words: "for My grace is sufficient for you." The Apostle Peter, writing under the inspiration of God, wrote that the Gospel was simple and would trip up people because of that. People were looking for something more complicated; maybe because that gratified their sense of intelligence. Jesus said you had to have the faith of a little child to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. ! Corinthians 1 says "But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise" and the Living Translation (I love this) says God chose "the nothings and the nobodies" so that salvation obviously came from God and no one could boast.
So my reply to you is, if it's simple maybe that doesn't mean it's wrong. "Occam's Razor," well accepted for years, says the simpliest explanation is most likely the right one.
These are present on all forms of religion and I beg the question, with INFINITE power (that's a BIG word), why no? Why suffer? with infinite power, there's simply no excuse for it.
But you don't know. Job complained to God, and God said, (paraphrased): "OK, here I am. Now stand up like a man and answer My questions." There's a whole bunch of them, and Job couldn't answer one about how God ran the universe. Job said, "I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know....Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 38-42).
You're a 21 year old person, barely an adult, and you are telling the world and God how His world has to be. This doesn't seem a little presumptuous to you? If it doesn't, maybe you aren't as wise as you bragged you were (welcome to the club - this has happened to me, too, so I'm not ragging on you. Just sayin').
Why does God allow suffering? Why didn't God answer Paul's repeated prayer? Maybe He has a reason that our minds 1) can't fathom or 2) is none of our business or 3) God is doing something good that we'll see later (the crucifixion didn't look like the world's best news when it was happening) and this is a time, when we can't understand, that we lean back on knowing that God has never screwed up before and that He can be trusted now.
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