RE: non-member wanting to get involved (Full Version)

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BibleL7 -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/8/2008 7:38:14 AM)

Figured I would put my two cents in here as there is one aspect not addressed and it seems perhaps not understood by posters. This is an Independent Baptist Church why this is important in the situation is that membership owns the church and property of the church. Unlike those churches that have elder boards ruling and denominations in control. Independent Baptist Churches are called independent for a reason they have no association backing or owning the property of the church. Yeppers big surprise part of being a member in a Baptist church is owning the property building vehicles etc... It is not just about voting in deacons and important things. The particulars of whether they have a deacon board or trustees that are mainly responsible for upkeep of property which is voted on by the membership. This board has to answer to the members of the church for use of property. So especially for insurance purposes on a church van there should have been a member involved in it if for no other reason than a nonmember would probably not be covered under insurance policy to drive the vehicle. As to serving in any capacity in a member church they usually prefer only members to pass out bulletins during service and such for that is representing the church to others including non members and it should by all means be done by a member for there should be deacons or ushers in the church who are to do this and to be so it is required to be a member.

It is not a trivial thing to have someone come into your church to visit then later see the person who handed them the bulletin down at the local casino drunk. It very much reflects on the church. And though you all may not understand that most independent Baptist churches do require membership and do practice church discipline and the are also very much like a family in that they also help the other members of the family.

As to the pastor saying that dh should not have told you on that I must agree with other posters that is not quite right. However it seems the pastor is probably very much on the hot seat with his member board for not having a member in on the vehicle use issue.

Oh one other thing most Independant Baptist Churches unlike SBC churches have no backing or association to help if they are sued and insurance costs are not cheap. Independant Baptist churches very much depend on the membership of the church for paying expenses. This part I know as being a member who was voted a trustee and also treasurer of an Independant Baptist Church. We are supported totally by the tithes of the members and I answer to the membership for every cent spent during our business meetings. So membership in this situation is much more than most of you think.



rcjames -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/8/2008 8:01:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius

quote:

I do this because otherwise I cannot know if they are saved, baptised, have their maritial status in order, their background is something that lives up with Scriptue, etc. etc. etc.


I have a what if question, if you don't mind answering.

What if you had a person who attended for a couple of years--you knew their family, you knew their reputation, they had already been baptized, you observed they were mature in the Lord and they were very devoted to the church in every way, but they just still hadn't signed the membership forms and didn't intend to.

I ask because I think this is a reality that membership churches deal with, and I know our church deals with it.


In my Church they would not be allowed in leadership or to minister.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBaileyKQFan
Where in the Bible does it say anything about formal church membership? I dont know why so many people are hung up on it. I agree with an earlier post, if you are saved you are a member of THE BODY OF CHRIST, which is all that matters anyway. No one's name on a church roll has ever done anything for the cause of Christ. A church building is a place to be taught the Word of God, and to fellowship with other believers. I really think we have strayed far from what the apostle Paul taught us, and commanded us to do.


Paul writes repeatedly about folks being "Put out from among you" and then being allwoed to be back in fellowship after certain requirements were met. The says membership to me as it definately speaks to being in or out of something.

In Acts Luke writes of the extreme devotion the Believers had for each other and their committment to the local Churches throughout the areeas of the expanding ministry.

Paul spoke to the folks that met in certain houses or locations as if they were intities of the whole, just as most are today.


Thanks
RC



colliefan -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/8/2008 10:20:14 PM)

quote:


In all ministry, including the mundane stuff, the person is representing the Church (the local body of Christ). As such if the person does not want to be an intergral part of the local body of Christ (member) I percieve that they should be a part of what they are representing.


What if there was an individual coming to see if Christianity is for real or just another religion. Wouldn't you want to get that individual involved in the body?

Helping in the mundane: working in the parking lot, handing out buletins, picking up the trash after the service, etc. By introducing him to others in the church would know the Master. It will help him place his trust in the Master,



rcjames -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/9/2008 9:10:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan
What if there was an individual coming to see if Christianity is for real or just another religion. Wouldn't you want to get that individual involved in the body?


Evidently that person would not be a Believer, but a looker; and as such would not be allowed to minister, work, or join the Church.

Church by definition is the gathering of the Saints, not a gathereing of folks who might be Saints at some later date. A very good basis verse for this is;

(Act 2:47) Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

"Those that were saved" not those who were looking.

quote:

Helping in the mundane: working in the parking lot, handing out buletins, picking up the trash after the service, etc. By introducing him to others in the church would know the Master. It will help him place his trust in the Master,


In my opinion that would only give them the idea that they can somehow work their way into believing. In all ministry, no matter how mundane, the person represents the local body of the Church, and if they are not saved how in the world could they represent those who are?

Thanks
RC



colliefan -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/9/2008 10:51:00 AM)

quote:


In my opinion that would only give them the idea that they can somehow work their way into believing. In all ministry, no matter how mundane, the person represents the local body of the Church, and if they are not saved how in the world could they represent those who are?


If the teaching is consistantly Christ-centered there is no way a person would believe this way.



semperfidelis -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/9/2008 10:59:39 AM)

Maybe I'm missing something, but are you letting the actions of one deacon speaking on behalf of the entire church? Maybe you got the one sour deacon who was having a bad Sunday morning?



phosadaud -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/9/2008 3:19:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan
What if there was an individual coming to see if Christianity is for real or just another religion. Wouldn't you want to get that individual involved in the body?


Evidently that person would not be a Believer, but a looker; and as such would not be allowed to minister, work, or join the Church.

Church by definition is the gathering of the Saints, not a gathereing of folks who might be Saints at some later date. A very good basis verse for this is;

(Act 2:47) Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

"Those that were saved" not those who were looking.



Sorry, but that verse it not saying those who are seeking can't enter the doors until they are saved. It's simply saying that people were being saved. I could say the same thing about my church. The Lord adds to our number almost daily the number who are saved. That doesn't mean that ONLY saved folks walk into our building.

In fact, other Scriptures testify to the opposite. Look in Corinthians where Paul is discussing tongues & interpretation.

1 Corinthians 14:22
Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.
14:23
So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

He doesn't say shut the door so that ONLY the saints worship together.

As far as ministering, I'm not familiar with all ministries, but I know in our music ministry, we ask folks about their testimony so we don't have (hopefully) and unbeliever singing in the choir (as we do not believe our choir is about performance but rather about leading others into worship. We do not require that you take the membership class and sign on the dotted line to be a voting member to serve. That's good because that would mean that non of our youth could serve and what a horrid way to teach our young people to serve the Lord and each other if we won't let them.

If someone wants to serve God through the church, I do not see that is our place to "qualify them". Yes, there are special requirements for certain ministries and for leadership - and that is biblical. However, I do not see anywhere in Scripture where there is a spiritual litmus test to serve in any manner. It doesn't say the early church gave to one another and served one another once they were bona-fide members. It says they gave to one another and served one another.



rcjames -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/9/2008 3:26:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Sorry, but that verse it not saying those who are seeking can't enter the doors until they are saved.


I never said they could not enter the door, I said they could not minister or work for the Church.

Also if they are living in sin; they should not be welcome to be part of the Church.

quote:

If someone wants to serve God through the church, I do not see that is our place to "qualify them".


When you ask them for their "Testamony" are you not qualifying them to particular qaulifications?

Thanks
RC



phosadaud -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/9/2008 3:48:51 PM)

For certain positions, yes - as I stated. Our choir is not about performance: it's about leading folks into worship. You can't lead, where you haven't been. In addition, just because you aren't a member, doesn't mean you aren't saved, so again, I see no precedence for requiring membership in order to serve.

However, if someone wants to go clean up after the choir, we aren't going to tell them no until they have met x, y & z requirements. So, there are some positions that require us to "qualify" folks, but serve in general does not need to be and I do not see this in Scripture. Jesus didn't tell folks to get lost when they tried to serve Him - even before knowing Him. He didn't tell the woman washing his feet with her hair and perfume - sorry, before you can serve me, I need to know you are a card-carrying member of my fold.



Focusing -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/9/2008 4:22:57 PM)

Wow. I wonder if it's the same church I just left ... a small independent Baptist church. Huh ... members only ... memories ... [8|]


My new church had a class this weekend that I wanted to attend, and I asked them if I could attend because I wasn't a member and didn't take their "101" class to become a member first (which is mandatory at some of the churches around here) ... and was told I was welcome to attend any class I was interested in at any time, no strings attached. I like my new church home. I feel very welcome there.



colliefan -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/9/2008 4:36:38 PM)

Instead of a formal church setting, let's assume the individual is going to a home church. He asks to help clean up after the meeting and help wash the dishes from the meal. You would prvent him b/c he is not a formal member of the group? And remember, most of the early churches met in homes. How does a change from a home to a formal building change things?



Liveloved -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/9/2008 4:43:37 PM)

quote:

Instead of a formal church setting, let's assume the individual is going to a home church. He asks to help clean up after the meeting and help wash the dishes from the meal. You would prvent him b/c he is not a formal member of the group? And remember, most of the early churches met in homes. How does a change from a home to a formal building change things?


Church membership is about belonging to Christ. Either you're IN the body or you're not. So it makes no difference. We have lost our understanding of who should be participating in the church. If you're not Christ's, then you're not in the church and there should be no question. I don't think church attendance is for those who are seeking. Church is for and about those who have been FOUND. It really does simplify things when we put first things first.[:)]



gotochurch -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/9/2008 6:16:55 PM)

I must correct a couple of facts I gave. This church is part of an association. The association's by-laws and constitution can be downloaded from the internet. I emailed the assoc. and asked if each church has the same by-laws and constitution and they said no, each church is autonomous. I'm wondering if it would help if I requested a copy of these items from the pastor....

The gentleman that grabbed the bulletins from my dh is not a deacon, just an usher. Dh says
this guy is on his third marriage so in a SBC does not even qualify to be a deacon. Wondering if that is the same with this church. He is also the same person that told dh he could no longer usher and probably the person that brought to pastor's attention that he should not be driving the van. To drive this particular van when full of people driver must have a CDL. Pastor told dh no one in the church even has one of those. Dh drives the bus for the Christian School's summer camps and sport teams. The organization's insurance usually covers anyone with a CDL.

Dh, dd and I all went to church together yesterday, to my second favorite of the two dd and I have been visiting. It is a Christian church and does things a lot differently than we are used to. Dd likes it pretty well because all the songs are very contemporary. I was kind of shocked to see the worship leader wearing hoops in both ears. I was reminded of how unpleasant dh can make a trip to and from church, and dd said she did not want to do that again for awhile. I usually drive but he must tell me every move to make. Then he wants to park in the handicap spot closest to the front door as if he wants to be seen by everyone. I parked in the farthest away handicap spot ( about five spots away), and he got mad. I don't want to explain about why he has a card in the first place, but to see him you would never think he needed one. The sermon was about learning to be content, but instead of applying it to himself, he lights into my dd on the way home. Not a very pleasant morning.

Dh says he will not go back to other church unless the pastor calls and he gets an apology from the usher. I've told dh I don't plan to ever return because of the pastor encouraging him to keep something from me. I'm thinking about emailing pastor and sharing our frustrations. Part of me wants this to all blow over so that he can continue going there and my dd and I can continue looking for a church where we are comfortable. Most of all I want to do God's will, and am just not sure what that is.

Once again, thank you and God bless.



rcjames -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/9/2008 6:23:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

Instead of a formal church setting, let's assume the individual is going to a home church. He asks to help clean up after the meeting and help wash the dishes from the meal. You would prvent him b/c he is not a formal member of the group? And remember, most of the early churches met in homes. How does a change from a home to a formal building change things?


In our home groups guests are treated as such and are not ask or required to clean up, but are there to be ministered to.

Much in the same manner that I do at my home when I invite someone over for dinner.

Thanks
RC



seagullplayer -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/9/2008 11:13:19 PM)

I will be praying for your family.



lightshineon -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/9/2008 11:42:01 PM)

Anybody willing to serve in the capacity your husband was doing is just fine. The Deacons wife sounds like a busybody, needs to hush, and sit down. The deacon who grabbed the bullitens needs corrected. Sounds like they need someone to voulenteer to teach these people love.



colliefan -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/9/2008 11:53:37 PM)

quote:

In our home groups guests are treated as such and are not ask or required to clean up, but are there to be ministered to.


In my example, I said he wanted to help.



BibleL7 -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/10/2008 8:15:54 AM)

Most if not all Baptist churches are autonomous. Yes you should get a copy of the By-Laws of the individual church. They should be available from the church secretary or any staff member. Belonging to an association does not make the individual congregation follow the association rules necessarily. The congregation is in charge of its own operations. Sorry if you feel offended by the actions of the usher or pastor or other members please know that all Baptist churches are not the same.

As for posts on mundane duties I will say there is no such thing when serving a Holy God. They may be mundane in country clubs or secular arenas but not in the church. And as for visitors being involved in any ministry of the church this should not be. At our church we announce to all visitors in fact that we prefer them to not even put anything in offering plate unless they truly felt lead by the Lord to do so. And you all may think that getting the person involved is the answer that is very worldly way of thinking we are not to be of the world. As to the example of people serving Christ not being members there is a slight difference. Doing service in the church is representing that congregation. The lady washing Christs feet with her tears was not representing Him or the church but serving Him and also Christ knows the heart of all, local congregations do not. You may all think that an usher is a lowly or mundane or unimportant job but the usher is a persons first impression of the church most of the time. They are the ambassadors of the Church and I for one would not want someone who was not a member of my congregation representing my congregation. There is not a whole lot involved in becoming a member other than the congregation being told of the persons belief in the Lord and in the case of Baptist churches they should be Baptized. And by the way can you think of any other business that would let just anybody be an usher other than volunteers who are usually known to the company in one way or another. And actually yes I would tell a non-member they could not clean up after an event or service and would not let them wash dishes either. That is service for members to do, not guests. (unlike other churches in other posts our members gladly serve in ministries not just a few people) The church is to be a group of servants for as Christ did not come to be served but to serve so should His followers do the same.

Now the usher at this church may have handled the situation very poorly, and this seems to be so. At our church this situation would not have happened simply because the ushers are given the bulletins and only ushers and they do not just leave them laying around. The person that prints the bulletins is responsible for giving them to the usher. We feel that the usher is a servant worthy of honor for their service. And I'm sorry but I truly do not see how any service to Lord can be equated with the word mundane I would say that is rather insulting to our Lord.



phosadaud -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/10/2008 3:09:22 PM)

Mundane does not equal less worth or value and maybe I missed it, but no one here is degrading "mundane" tasks. Being a janitor may be "mundane" (which is defined as common, ordinary, secular) but it is vital and worthy of our honor and respect. And doing the job well brings glory to God and is one piece is reaching this world for the lost. I am a full-time employee of a church doing "mundane" work (I'm the head bookkeeper), but I know that my work is furthering the Kingdom of God. That being said, are you saying that someone who labels a mailer should be held to an identical standard for spiritual maturity as the person leading worship on Sunday morning? That's not to say that a spiritually mature believer is "too good" to do "mundane" tasks (in fact I would argue that ALL believers should be doing "mundane" tasks and believers who don't are showing spiritually IMmaturity), but even the Bible says that some positions are held to higher standards and will be held to a stricter judgement than others (for instance, teachers).



BibleL7 -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/12/2008 3:00:27 AM)

phosadaud

I did not mention spiritual maturity in it I mentioned membership. Membership is simply someone who is known to have made a profession of Christ and has been baptized, in most Baptist churches. For our officers the requirement is at least six months membership. And as far as mundane I as the treasurer for my church which would be equivalent to head bookkeeper in paying all bills and handling books and making many of the financial decisions which do not require a vote by membership and I would not call it mundane at all. I also happen to do most of the janitorial work and neither do I consider it mundane. If it is service to the Lord it should not be looked at as ordinary, common and certainly not secular. It is all for the Glory of our Lord and Savior.



phosadaud -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/12/2008 3:13:59 PM)

I think you and are are looking at mundane in different ways. You see "ordinary, common, etc" as a bad thing. I don't.

And secular doesn't mean I don't do it for God - it simply means the "job duties" are not directly "spiritual" (praying, teaching, preaching, etc). My job is very much ministry. The jobs I do in that job support the efforts of the church. My tasks are still secular but for a Heaven-purpose. That will be the same if I have a "secular" job in the community.

As far as "spiritual maturity" - this thread is about someone not being allowed to serve in any fashion because they are not an official member. I have a problem with that. Maybe it's a difference in semantics, but membership in every church I've attended is a formal process (and being a legally recognized non-profit organization, it has to be in accordance with our bylaws and such). So, you can be a born-again, baptized, on-fire for Jesus believer who has attended a church every Sunday for 5 years and not be a member. And as far as spiritual maturity - I bring that up because some have posted this idea that you shouldn't serve until you are a solid believer because you "represent" the church. However, I do not see any biblical precendence for that, nor do I see how you can mature as a believer (and become that solid rock) without being allowed to serve.

Jesus actually took flak for "allowing" folks who were pretty screwed up serve Him from the very moment of their repentance (remember Mary Magdaleine?). It "looked" bad, but He didn't make them wait until after they had their lives cleaned up and reputations restored before He "allowed" them to serve Him so it "looked" better.



rcjames -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/12/2008 3:23:08 PM)

It is a simple thing for a non-menber to minister in a Church that does not allow non-menbers to minister;

Go hrough whatever vetting is required and join the Church.

Then; go through whatever vetting and training is required for the ministry/service that one wants to do; and wall there you have it.


Thasnks
RC



teachered -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/12/2008 10:51:54 PM)

gotochurch,

My question is, why are you not going to church with your husband? I think that needs to be addressed. Whether you like it there or not, you should attend church with your husband.

As far as the church not letting him pass out bulletins because he is a not a member is very petty. I am not saying that your husband is lying, but somehow I think that there is more to the story. You say that you don't attend this church so how do you know, other than what your husband is telling you, that maybe he is perceiving things in a different way than what is actually happening?

Maybe I seem a little harsh, but when a woman doesn't attend the same church as her husband I question if she is being submissive......?????



BibleL7 -> RE: non-member wanting to get involved (6/13/2008 4:08:14 AM)

teachered it is not necessarily that a woman attend the same church as her husband if she feels she is called to another congregation. As long as she has the same belief and looks to him as the one that leads. Example: we have a member who felt lead to help our church in way of teaching Sunday School to children, her husband felt called to help at another church they discussed it and agreed to it. She is still submitting to her husband and she is serving the Lord as she was called.
Sorry you feel that membership is not important or that passing out bulletins is not something that should be done by those who are representatives of the congregation ie members.



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