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[Poll]
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CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL?
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| Yes |
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| No |
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| Not sure |
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| This is a stupid question |
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Total Votes : 51
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(last vote on : 8/7/2008 7:40:27 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 6/10/2008 2:00:53 PM
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jlp1
Posts: 125
Joined: 4/4/2008
From: Chicago
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Yes, the guilt they put you under, especially if you don't tide.
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 6/10/2008 2:10:32 PM
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bzirk
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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To be clear, I believe some who are interested in pastoring a church body should wait to do it, and obviously some shouldn't wait. Everyone is different, and a college degree and an MDiv degree do not make a pastor no matter how sweethearted or well intentioned someone may be. Sometimes it's best to wait. As for ministry, we all should aspire to that and be in some process of doing it since those who are of the Lord are all part of a royal priesthood. At a minimum we're all called to spread the Gospel. Being ministers is in part what pastors (undershepherds, bishops, elders) are called to equip the church to do. Does that mean everyone will be a pastor? No, but we can all minister. Recognizing this aspect of our identity helps keep church (as we know it) from becoming an idol.
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may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 6/11/2008 11:39:38 AM
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crankius
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bzirk,
I do believe too many young men are put into the position of elder when they are not at all qualified. They may be educated, but that's far different from being Biblically qualified as you pointed out.
quote:
Not saying all younger pastors fall into it, but I think older pastors are not as prone to it, because being a pastor is not as likely to be their chief identity. Hopefully, any pastor's (or Christian's) chief identity wil be in the Lord. I believe it's much easier to continually acknowledge this after you've been through some junk, i.e., been matured by life in some areas and realize that identity with Christ is the best way and not just because someone told you it was. Not all of us gain that kind of knowledge by 25.
That's an excellent point.
So many good thoughts in that.
It's definitely a bad deal to have your whole identity in your position and your role at the church. It is just as negative as having your identity in your stuff, or in your secular job, or in your parenting role, etc.
Going through junk can seriously help ground a person in Christ--if we allow it to. Some people continue to fight this identity issue for all their lives.
I'm thankful for my junk. 
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 6/11/2008 5:34:12 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6203
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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At my wife's old church.. if you were going to not go to a service (not just Sunday morning, but any event) you had to call the "Apostle" and ask his permission to not go and state the reason(s) why you were not going to be present.
And this was/is for those that are just attending - not specifically those in ministry that had responsibilities for the service, etc..
If he said no and you still did not show up.. you were/are put on discipline and outed from partaking in certain events and functions.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 6/11/2008 11:21:51 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4468
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Earthless,
That sounds more like a cult!
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 6/11/2008 11:22:40 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2918
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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That's what I thought.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 6/12/2008 7:54:18 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6203
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Earthless,
That sounds more like a cult!
A hyper Word of Faith/Lakeland Revival style church that my wife struggled to admit that a lot of what they teach is not biblically sound.
Boy.. do I have some stories about that place.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 6/12/2008 3:41:35 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4468
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It is very good that she is no longer a part of that group.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 6/12/2008 8:58:30 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6203
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
It is very good that she is no longer a part of that group.
Yes, it is awesome and took a lot of years of Bible study and prayer to break through the bondages of Word of Faith.
We have lost a lot of friends and opportunities because we refuse to accept what is doctrinally unsound.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 6/13/2008 5:22:07 AM
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BibleL7
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I voted yes then read OP but do agree that some times people tend to put the congregation on a pedestal. Particularly when it comes to leaders they tend to think that just because they are a leader they are to be worshiped and never questioned. In this I mean they would not check the Bible to see if what the leader says agrees. At our church the pastor always tells the congregation to check what he says against the Word. He also continuously reminds the congregation that it is Jesus who needs to be first in your life. I have also seen where people tend to put some church traditions on pedestal. Things like only ministers or deacons can sit in certain seats or the factor that the church has followed the first Sunday being Communion Sunday tradition it is sometimes thought sacrilege to have it another time or miss it one first Sunday. Then there is the thought of the building itself being sacred and you cant do this or that in church. So yes it can be idol just should not be so if you are truly following the Lord.
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 6/14/2008 12:16:22 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3642
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From: a mother who let me live
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Oh, Bluestone and CoeurdeLeon! I am sorry you also went through that. Where I attended, the church was god. They made up their own little rules, and if we protested them, they bluntly said that they were like a club, could make the rules as they chose, and if we were going to the active members, we had to follow them.
On their little teaching charts, they put G-d and church on the same line, with everything else below that.
Glad you both got out.
I had plenty of blue denim skirts and jumpers to show for my confinement there, too.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 6/23/2008 9:25:58 PM
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beachcooky
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I don't think it CAN be an idol. Didn't God say there shouldn't be any other idol except Him?
But I can't deny that church isn't awesome, because it SO is! It's been the biggest part of my life and the people that are in my church have helped me through my life struggles.
But is it my idol? No. God's my Idol.
Now I might have misunderstood the question, and if so, can someone explain it better?
I mean, an idol is someone or something you worship. Do you worship the church? No, you worship God. So maybe Idol isn't the right word.
I don't know. I'm not trying to cause any trouble. I am simply saying what I believe :)
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www.myspace.com/xsweetheartforux
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 6/23/2008 9:29:37 PM
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beachcooky
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
At my wife's old church.. if you were going to not go to a service (not just Sunday morning, but any event) you had to call the "Apostle" and ask his permission to not go and state the reason(s) why you were not going to be present.
And this was/is for those that are just attending - not specifically those in ministry that had responsibilities for the service, etc..
If he said no and you still did not show up.. you were/are put on discipline and outed from partaking in certain events and functions.
Woah. That DOES sound like a cult. I hope you found a better church, more about God!
_____________________________
www.myspace.com/xsweetheartforux
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 6/23/2008 10:37:12 PM
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ChristopherJ
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Can church be an idol? Sure it can. But that doesn't mean that the church is a bad thing. Yes, some people have made it an idol, and overemphasized it, but let's not throw out the proverbial baby with the bath water...
But let's remember that Jesus loves the church, and said, "I will build MY CHURCH." It is His church, His body, His family, and He loves it. Hebrews 10:24-25 tells us to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. And although we must always guard against the extremes, we need to recognize that church is God's idea, and He has placed us in a family to love and care for one another, amen?
Unfortunately, some people - because they have gotten hurt by those in leadership in the church - have given up on fellowship altogether. If that's you, I want to encourage you to give church another chance. Not all churches are bad! There are quite a few good ones out there, actually!
_____________________________
Chris Jordan
www.beausejourchurch.ca
http://thelandofpromise.blogspot.com/
(visit our website for free MP3 audio sermons, sermon notes, articles, devotionals and more).
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 6/23/2008 11:13:34 PM
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crankius
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quote:
ORIGINAL: beachcooky
Now I might have misunderstood the question, and if so, can someone explain it better?
I mean, an idol is someone or something you worship. Do you worship the church? No, you worship God. So maybe Idol isn't the right word.
I don't know. I'm not trying to cause any trouble. I am simply saying what I believe :)
This is the passage I was thinking of: "you shall not bow down to them nor serve them." Exodus 20:5a
It doesn't mean you have carved out a model of church and put it in your house and are bowing down to it, but perhaps in your heart you have made the church organization your idol and are serving and bowing down to it.
We all serve in our churches, and we all as believers have a right desire to be part of the fellowship in the Body of Christ, and we have a Spirit-given desire to exercise our part of the Body. However, sometimes people develop an unhealthy idol-like approach to church. Think idolatry.
Here are some signs that church MIGHT be an idol in your life:
You are so busy serving your church that you neglect your personal relationship with God, or neglect your family, or neglect to feed and love on the lambs God has placed right in front of you.
You care more about what people at church think of you than what God thinks of you.
Without the church organization, your life would fall apart.
Without your position in the church, you would feel unimportant.
You think everyone should be spending as much time as you working in your church.
The church is the center of your religious experience.
You look to the pastor more than you look to God, or if you are the pastor, you look to the people more than you look to God.
Other than at church, you never open your Bible.  Not sure if this really means church is your idol, but it certainly is a BAD thing.
Maybe some of you have some other points to add? If I think of anything else I'll post it.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 6/23/2008 11:26:06 PM
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crankius
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
Can church be an idol? Sure it can. But that doesn't mean that the church is a bad thing. Yes, some people have made it an idol, and overemphasized it, but let's not throw out the proverbial baby with the bath water...
But let's remember that Jesus loves the church, and said, "I will build MY CHURCH." It is His church, His body, His family, and He loves it. Hebrews 10:24-25 tells us to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. And although we must always guard against the extremes, we need to recognize that church is God's idea, and He has placed us in a family to love and care for one another, amen?
Unfortunately, some people - because they have gotten hurt by those in leadership in the church - have given up on fellowship altogether. If that's you, I want to encourage you to give church another chance. Not all churches are bad! There are quite a few good ones out there, actually!
I appreciate your post.
I was thinking more on this, and I think it is possible that for those who have church as their idol, when things go sour due to problems or issues within their local church, they are more likely to throw the baby out with the bath water.
If you are serving the Lord God and have a vibrant personal relationship with Him as your Lord and Savior and are studying the Word, you will be more likely to have the proper perspective that humans fail and act stupidly. You will be more likely to brush the dirt off and keep at the race for the long haul and continue to be part of the Body of Christ in whatever way you can according to Scripture. You would certainly be wiser when choosing the next church (or choosing how you view church and your role in it). 
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 6/23/2008 11:37:38 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10604
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From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
I was thinking more on this, and I think it is possible that for those who have church as their idol, when things go sour due to problems or issues within their local church, they are more likely to throw the baby out with the bath water.
If you are serving the Lord God and have a vibrant personal relationship with Him as your Lord and Savior and are studying the Word, you will be more likely to have the proper perspective that humans fail and act stupidly. You will be more likely to brush the dirt off and keep at the race for the long haul and continue to be part of the Body of Christ in whatever way you can according to Scripture. You would certainly be wiser when choosing the next church (or choosing how you view church and your role in it).
Oooo! Good thought. I've always had a hard time with folks who "throw the baby out with the bathwater". I have had plenty of my share of bad church experiences, but never in even the most remote corner of my mind did I even think about leaving "the church" in general (maybe "a" church, but not the church) and never understood that mentality. I mean, if I have a horrid experience at a job, I don't decide to stop working jobs. If I have a horrid experience at school, I don't decide to stop going to school. If I have a bad experience at a store, I don't decide to stop shopping. It just never made sense to me. However, what you've said there really makes a lot of sense.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 6/26/2008 12:03:27 PM
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Qtman
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In the poll I voted yes. Anything that comes betweed you and God is an idol. I have seen people I firmly believe worshipped the church and not God. I have also seen people so enamored with a certain pastor that even he became an idol.
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 6/26/2008 2:56:30 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2918
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
Can church be an idol? Sure it can. But that doesn't mean that the church is a bad thing. Yes, some people have made it an idol, and overemphasized it, but let's not throw out the proverbial baby with the bath water...
But let's remember that Jesus loves the church, and said, "I will build MY CHURCH." It is His church, His body, His family, and He loves it. Hebrews 10:24-25 tells us to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. And although we must always guard against the extremes, we need to recognize that church is God's idea, and He has placed us in a family to love and care for one another, amen?
Unfortunately, some people - because they have gotten hurt by those in leadership in the church - have given up on fellowship altogether. If that's you, I want to encourage you to give church another chance. Not all churches are bad! There are quite a few good ones out there, actually!
I appreciate your post.
I was thinking more on this, and I think it is possible that for those who have church as their idol, when things go sour due to problems or issues within their local church, they are more likely to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Yep, this happens way too often, and as I've shared on many occasions on this site, I have been guilty of this. Thankfully, the Lord did not let me remain there. I think the Lord let my husband and me experience that all those years ago because of what is happening today. It has better equipped us to deal with people who have this struggle, 'cause we've been there, done that, and got the t-shirt.
quote:
If you are serving the Lord God and have a vibrant personal relationship with Him as your Lord and Savior and are studying the Word, you will be more likely to have the proper perspective that humans fail and act stupidly. You will be more likely to brush the dirt off and keep at the race for the long haul and continue to be part of the Body of Christ in whatever way you can according to Scripture. You would certainly be wiser when choosing the next church (or choosing how you view church and your role in it).
I think this is true, but what you're describing is maturity. I know that despite all of my knowledge of scripture, I was not as mature as you describe here when I was in my 20s. I was immature, like a child, in my expectations of the Church. Again, the Lord did not let me remain in that immaturity. Thank you, Lord!
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 6/26/2008 7:27:24 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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There are churches in which maturity in the L-rd and/or in biblical knowledge are not a goal. In fact, there are churches that do all they can to prevent both.
When a church tells its people that it is the only one with the whole truth or the full gospel, or that other churches are inferior to them, it automatically sets itself up as the congregation's idol.
Of these, they often also stifle education, telling their adherents that education may cause them to fail the L-rd, implanting fear of education in the minds of its members, stifling maturity. The noted end result of this is that the people will turn to the church because of the natural human thirst for knowledge. The church becomes their only education.
That church is an idol, and those who attend those churches need to walk out the door and not look back. Unfortunately, such churches heavily teach that those who leave are lost.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 6/26/2008 8:10:07 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2918
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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Those leaders who do this will be held to account for that teaching.
But the Holy Spirit is alive and well, and He can overcome any amount of bad teaching. It remains for us to respond to His prompting.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 7/5/2008 8:11:51 PM
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Strategon
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[image]http://www.sheepleblog.net/image.axd?picture=cartoonchurchplex.jpg[/image]
Would you be referring to the 501-C3 corporation? If so, most of those are just shopping malls for the religion of consumerism. Strong language I know, but the consumerist mindset that is plaguing American Christianity today is turning church into an absurd circus. You have pastors competing with one another to see who can do the most outrageous things to get more consumers in church. Yeah I know...we dress it up with words like evangelism, and the gospel blah blah...but when we change the gospel to make it appeal to the masses, we aren't really making converts.
Then you have the consumer christians themselves..if they really are christians...who change churches faster than they change channels on their new big screen tv's that they just bought with their tax stimulus checks. John Drane said it the best; to most people church is nothing more than McChurchys where they can get value meals. Give me lots of fluffy junk food, make it super sized..but I'll take a small sermon (15 minutes ) and make sure it has lots of stories and pictures.
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http://www.sheepleblog.net
"Provoking mindless sheeple to become thinking people!"
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 7/5/2008 8:32:10 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2918
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I don't know that 501 c3 status necessarily brought all of that on, but we definitely have a predominant consumer mentality. In other words there is a package that people are looking for in church, and if they don't get the right package, they dont buy. Or if they buy the package, and it doesn't turn out to be the product they thought, they buy another package or give up on it altogether. Meanwhile where is the Lord in all of this? Where is the Lord who inspired this:
quote:
Hebrews 11
13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.
20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.
23By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict.
24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. 26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.
31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.
32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
(emphasis mine)
I cannot read this without tears in my eyes. It is humbling and enlightening about what kind of people we are to be, and in this country, for the most part, we are not.
But there's hope. The Lord is alive and well, and even if there are "shopping malls for the religion of consumerism," I can still be salt and light. I can still spread the Gospel and live out my belief in the Lord and His good news.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: CAN CHURCH BE AN IDOL? - 7/7/2008 9:16:54 AM
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yours
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Ha! I just finished watching this youtube clip the other day. It's so true and it relates exactly to this!
Church Addicts
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I think I would last about, oh, 1/2 a second in a church like that... 
