Does OT Isreal = NT Church? (Full Version)

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beforHim -> Does OT Isreal = NT Church? (6/5/2008 12:01:09 PM)

Always wondered this. Seems to me to be the same thing, but pretty much no one agrees with me. I want to study it a little, so some different views from different people will give me a starting point, a point of reference. My own view might be skewed all by itself.



jazzact13 -> RE: Does OT Isreal = NT Church? (6/5/2008 12:35:31 PM)

If you can point out one place in the NT where the church is called Israel, or Israel is called the church, then a case may be made.

But all the places I can think of where those two titles are used, they are used separately. "Israel" usually means the nation as a whole, though there are a few times in Romans where it may mean a subset of that nation who have faith in Christ. The church is always the church, whether as a whole or in local congregations.



Lapidoth -> RE: Does OT Isreal = NT Church? (6/5/2008 12:44:27 PM)

As KJ uses the term "church", it's the assemblies.

Moses is said to have been over the "church" in the wilderness.

Romans 9-11 make it clear there is only ONE body.
The common-wealth of Israel. We are grafted in by the
Grace of God. The branches broken off (unbelieving Israel)
are grafted back in when they accept Messiah like anyone else.

So, in the {step back and see the whole picture}, there is only
one body. Paul expounds on it pretty well. Replacement Theology
and anti-semitics have really clouded the issue. Most all of us are
influenced by one or the other, though we don't realize it.

No one comes to the Father but by the Blood of the Lamb (Yeshua; Jesus)
In the true church (the one body) there is no ethnic requirements.
No color, no race, etc. Just ONE blood.



jazzact13 -> RE: Does OT Isreal = NT Church? (6/5/2008 3:14:41 PM)

quote:

Romans 9-11 make it clear there is only ONE body.


But those same chapters make it clear that Israel is not the church.

Romans 11
1. I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

25. I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
26. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
28. As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
29. for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

In saying "The church is not Israel", I'm not saying that there is some other way to the Father. Jews and Gentiles are both saved through faith in Christ.



beforHim -> RE: Does OT Isreal = NT Church? (6/18/2008 2:15:29 AM)

Thx for the replies.

Mostly it seems the same to me because both have the same "rules" (for lack of a better word at the moment), but as Paul says, we now see with faces unveiled.



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