In the World Of the World (Full Version)

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elastic -> In the World Of the World (6/5/2008 5:00:41 PM)

i get incredibly tired of people throwing this line out all of the time to justify whatever it is that they are personally against, even though the Bible is silent on the matter.

for example:

you should not have a tatoo because we are to be in the world, not of the world.
you should not drink because we are to be in the world, not of the world
you should not wear a skirt that is knee length because we are to be in the world, not of the world.
you should not cut your hair because we are to be in the world, not of the world
you should not watch certain movies because we are to be in the world, not of the world


and yet....

there are other things that the world does that we do as well. you cannot tell if the person in the car next to you is a Christian or not because people in the world drive cars....we use the internet, we file our taxes, we go to the gym, we go to movies, we date, we marry, we color our hair (if we are women who do not want to go gray[;)] )...there is a whole host of things that we all do just because we are people...they are neither sin, nor are they NOT sin...they just are..they are things that people in the world do.

So, if you are one of those people who throw out the "we are to be in the world, not of the world" mantra...please explain why you do this.

If you are not one of those people, please explain what you really think of this verse and the way people are using it (whether in context or not)

I personally think that we are all in the world and just because we do things that people in the world do, it does not mean that we are being of the world. Just because i might drink or get a tatoo, it does not mean that others around me cannot see that there is something different in my spririt, or that i am 'worldly' in the unchristian sense...

so basically, what say you?

discuss.



JimboFletch -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/5/2008 5:05:02 PM)

Both are true. Spiritual maturity and discernment helps us understand that there are boundaries for believers. We are bought with an enormous price and are no longer our own in Christ (paraphasing scripture).



1love1God1way -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/5/2008 5:58:04 PM)

That's funny. I just made a post in the tattoo thread that was geared in this same direction before I saw this one.

Great minds think alike.

Crazy minds probably do, too.



SonInMe1 -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/5/2008 8:05:01 PM)

Jesus was a carpenter.

He rode a donkey.

He ate...even with sinners.

He went to a few parties.

It would not suprise me that Jesus listened to contemporary music.

As a christian we are not dominated by the world's ethics. That...is being in the world but not of the world.

Its kinda simple...ain't it?



MrFribbles -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/5/2008 8:14:33 PM)

I would say that the true indicator of being "in the world," is for your life to be in opposition to the faith you profess. If you claim to love Christ, but don't love fellow believers, you are in the world. If you claim to be a Christian, but deny Christ coming in the flesh, you are of the world. If you claim to love God, but blatantly and willingly choose not to obey His commands, you are in the world.
Overall, I would say that "cosmetic morality" (sorry, I couldn't think of another way to put it - I basically mean the things you mentioned) do not define one's worldliness. By and large, they are Romans 14 issues, things that each believer must be convicted of in their own heart, and must not judge one another on.



phosadaud -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/5/2008 9:34:54 PM)

(((((((elastic)))))))) I am soooooo there with you! [:D]

I think these are some of the most misused, taken out of context verses in Scripture.

Whenever it comes up, it's usually because someone doesn't have Scripture to back up what they are trying to argue, so they try and sound spiritual and look spiritual by being "different". The problem is, Jesus had something to say about that kind of spiritual pride (remember the Pharisee and the "sinner" praying in the temple and the Pharisee was so thankful he wasn't like "him").



Qtman -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/5/2008 9:43:23 PM)

I agree that is one of the most abused and misinterpreted verses of scripture there is. I think it was well known when we were instructed to be separate that we would still have to wear the same clothes, ride the same donkeys and live in the same kind of houses. It was our actions that was being refered to. The only way you can tell a Christian is by their actions. That is what makes them different from the world. We are in the world through human existance. But we are not of the world through the Grace of Jesus Christ. THrough his Grace we are of His world.



hymnHIM -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/5/2008 10:10:23 PM)

quote:

I personally think that we are all in the world and just because we do things that people in the world do, it does not mean that we are being of the world. Just because i might drink or get a tatoo, it does not mean that others around me cannot see that there is something different in my spririt, or that i am 'worldly' in the unchristian sense...

You know I think that there is alot that is un-written here. I am reminded of another scripture, Heb. 4:12. God sees not only the action, which is the effect, but He also sees the cause. The what and the why. I want to say that I am not looking for a fight, but, I would ask why? Why the tattoo? Why the booze? I dont know, perhaps you dont really know, but God does, and based from that knowledge God then judges righteously. And while many people do judge (look down on you/others so they can feel justified or somehow better), does that include anyone who might say, "hey, watch out, this looks good, tastes good, but it can lead you astray". I would think that advise might be worth considering. Finally, scripture can be taken out of context, it happens far to often, but dont throw the baby out with the bath water. The God who created us, the God who knows more than us about everything is trying to tell us something that can only benefit us. I would take and read this in context, and I would pray that the truth in its fullness might be revealed, and then I would live it in the power of the Holy Spirit. God bless you,
Dan



car2ner -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/6/2008 7:54:15 AM)

I had a pastor through this idea out for consideration: It is alot neater to impose and enforce rules than to expect people to hear from God for themselves.

I see alot of rule enforcing in the church. There is always some scripture to back it up and often there is a scripture that seems to contradict it. God gave us a list of ten black and white rules...but let's think on that, "thou shalt not kill" but the O.T. has examples of God led genocide.

Sorry, I don't believe in situational ethics but I also don't think enforcing rules on others is what God had in mind.

I do believe this one very strictly, that by what ever standard you hold others, that is the standard you will be judged by.
Also, take that huge beam out of your eye before you even begin to get that speck out of your brother's eye.



SonInMe1 -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/6/2008 8:17:16 AM)

quote:

I agree that is one of the most abused and misinterpreted verses of scripture there is.


Nah. The biggest misused scripture is people calling on Jesus name and He says, get awy from me I never knew you. Its used to support almost any doctrine.



hymnHIM -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/6/2008 9:35:20 AM)

Car2ner,
I do understand what your saying, and so many times rules are offered in place of relationship, but, I must disagree. Paul, when writing all the churches always put forward the expected behavior of those professing to be Christian. He always had to remind the believers to put off fleshly desires. While this may seem to be a subjective area, it really isnt, when we understand that God sees the heart, He sees the intents. The action is the product of the intent. So, if we are me-centered, the actions of that will logiclly follow. I think that judging a fellow believer is wrong, but admonishing one another, encouraging and helping is our Christian mandate. God bless you,
Dan



elastic -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/6/2008 9:49:24 AM)

quote:

"cosmetic morality"


That is actually an excellent description. i just might start using it. [8D]

quote:

I want to say that I am not looking for a fight, but, I would ask why? Why the tattoo? Why the booze?
I would say that it's between me and God. If i have a drink of wine with dinner, there is nothing sinister going on. It's not leading me on a path to distruction. If i have 15 beers at a bar looking to drown my troubles, that's a whole 'nother issue altogether. same with a tatoo...maybe i'm commemorating something, or maybe i just like the look of something. it doesn't necissarly mean that i am rebelling or doing it for selfish purposes.

quote:


I dont know, perhaps you dont really know, but God does, and based from that knowledge God then judges righteously. And while many people do judge (look down on you/others so they can feel justified or somehow better), does that include anyone who might say, "hey, watch out, this looks good, tastes good, but it can lead you astray".


i think someone saying 'hey, watch out, this can lead you astray" is a whole lot different than someone saying "you shouldn't do this and you are going to hell because you are doing it"

one shows concern, the other shows a holier-than-thou attitude and imho is the bigger sin. genuine concern is not the same a judgement.

quote:

It is alot neater to impose and enforce rules than to expect people to hear from God for themselves.

ain't that the truth.

quote:

I do believe this one very strictly, that by what ever standard you hold others, that is the standard you will be judged by
i quite believe that myself.



another verse that is thrown out that is in the same neighborhood as this one is the oft used "do not give the appearance of evil"



elastic -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/6/2008 9:54:17 AM)

quote:

but admonishing one another, encouraging and helping is our Christian mandate


I have found, in regards to these boards, people do not throw these verses out to encourage or admonish. they throw them out to show how holy they are compared to the rest of us. they use them to show off and to let us mere mortals see how "in the will of God" they are and how "out of God's will" we are.

there is no love there...it's all "i don't do these evil things, so i am better/more christian than you are", or at least that is how it comes across most times.



JimboFletch -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/6/2008 9:57:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

quote:

I agree that is one of the most abused and misinterpreted verses of scripture there is.


Nah. The biggest misused scripture is people calling on Jesus name and He says, get awy from me I never knew you. Its used to support almost any doctrine.

Or, perhaps, not judging blatant sin and heresy lest ye be judged...



lexie -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/6/2008 10:13:10 AM)

I don't throw out the mantra "in this world but not of it" on a regular basis but I do try to apply it to my life.

For me it is the question of, where are you placing your values? If I value things that are of the world more than I value spiritual things I have problems. If worldly things are getting in the way of spiritual things in my life then I need to fix them.

Sure I listen to secular music, but only clean stuff and no questionable content. Sure I like the occassional glass of wine but only in my home or with people who I know and who know me (so that it doesn't become a stumbling block.) There are lots of worldly things I do but for me personally, it's how I do it and the importance in my life I am giving it.



doinkdom -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/6/2008 10:15:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: elastic
I have found, in regards to these boards, people do not throw these verses out to encourage or admonish. they throw them out to show how holy they are compared to the rest of us. they use them to show off and to let us mere mortals see how "in the will of God" they are and how "out of God's will" we are.


I've been trying to find a bible verse that makes me sound holier than the rest of y'all...unfortunately, it is only reinforced with Paul's words about being the chief of sinners.

well at least I made the rank of Chief [;)]

Sometimes I forget that my purpose of being is to worship God and to progressively seek to be more like Him. In that I tend to let my eyes stray off my own path and compare myself to others and then my sin takes over...

at least I'm doing better than her
I would never do thus-n-so
I'm far more advanced in knowledge of the Lord than her

it goes on and on until my merciful heavenly Father says, "whoa nelly" and places me right back on track until the next minute or to when I jump right back in the pig pen.[8|]



DarleneSchreiber -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/6/2008 10:25:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lexie

I don't throw out the mantra "in this world but not of it" on a regular basis but I do try to apply it to my life.

For me it is the question of, where are you placing your values? If I value things that are of the world more than I value spiritual things I have problems. If worldly things are getting in the way of spiritual things in my life then I need to fix them.

Sure I listen to secular music, but only clean stuff and no questionable content. Sure I like the occassional glass of wine but only in my home or with people who I know and who know me (so that it doesn't become a stumbling block.) There are lots of worldly things I do but for me personally, it's how I do it and the importance in my life I am giving it.


Nicely said, Lexie! And, may I add, Christians, in general, don't realize the weightiness scripture places on not being a stumbling block. Better that a millstone were hung around our necks!

The "world" is watching the Church very closely. To those that say certain things are acceptable for Christians because they "attract" the world and give us a chance to witness, I say be very careful. When you take that path, you willingly place yourself under a very hard, very strong magnifing glass. And you greatly increase the amount of responsibility you bear. Are you up to it? Can you look evil in the eye and not be swayed? Peter thought so, too.

I had to chuckle the "throwing out verses" remark. That's the type of thing people always say when they feel the sting of scripture. It's much easier to deflect that heat. Kind of like the kid in grade school that wins the award for having the best grades. The other kids say, "Oh yeah? Well, you think you're so smart! You think you're so much better than the rest of us! We won't let you play our reindeer games!" [8|]



DarleneSchreiber -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/6/2008 10:27:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doinkdom

quote:

ORIGINAL: elastic
I have found, in regards to these boards, people do not throw these verses out to encourage or admonish. they throw them out to show how holy they are compared to the rest of us. they use them to show off and to let us mere mortals see how "in the will of God" they are and how "out of God's will" we are.


I've been trying to find a bible verse that makes me sound holier than the rest of y'all...unfortunately, it is only reinforced with Paul's words about being the chief of sinners.

well at least I made the rank of Chief [;)]

Sometimes I forget that my purpose of being is to worship God and to progressively seek to be more like Him. In that I tend to let my eyes stray off my own path and compare myself to others and then my sin takes over...

at least I'm doing better than her
I would never do thus-n-so
I'm far more advanced in knowledge of the Lord than her

it goes on and on until my merciful heavenly Father says, "whoa nelly" and places me right back on track until the next minute or to when I jump right back in the pig pen.[8|]


Well said to you, too, flamingo-girl! [:)]

I know just where you're comin' from! When (and it's often) I start thinking that way, God points me to scripture and says, "Really? So how do you compare to My standard? Ouch! [:@]



elastic -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/6/2008 10:43:15 AM)

quote:

I had to chuckle the "throwing out verses" remark. That's the type of thing people always say when they feel the sting of scripture.

i certainly didn't word it that way because i felt the sting of scripture. i worded it that way because so many people who use it, do so out of some superiority complex that they have. they don't actually use the verse in it's biblical context...they use it to justify how holy they feel they are.

that is why i worded it that way.



hymnHIM -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/6/2008 2:55:49 PM)

quote:

I would say that it's between me and God. If i have a drink of wine with dinner, there is nothing sinister going on. It's not leading me on a path to distruction. If i have 15 beers at a bar looking to drown my troubles, that's a whole 'nother issue altogether. same with a tatoo...maybe i'm commemorating something, or maybe i just like the look of something. it doesn't necissarly mean that i am rebelling or doing it for selfish purposes.


You owe me no explanation of why you want to do what you want to do. I am trying to help you understand why this verse is used. You are right, it is between you and God, until you bring it into a pubic forum, then you must expect replies. As the reader I must try to understand your reasoning. If I disagree, I must show you why I disagree. Is this being judgemental? Is this somehow making me holier than anyone? No, I must not compromise what I know to be the truth, so that others may feel better about their actions. I must not make something relative that is clearly not. The scripture you say that is being thrown at you is scripture and there are many others that back it up. We are bought at a great price, and we are no longer our own. Paul exclaimed that he was a slave to Christ. That means ones who's will is lost in another. Lastly this is a post of encouragement, not condemnation. I only desire to help you understand that many, perhaps most are not judging you, but perhaps trying only to help, while not watering down the truth.
God bless you,
Dan



HisFish -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/6/2008 3:38:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: elastic

quote:

I had to chuckle the "throwing out verses" remark. That's the type of thing people always say when they feel the sting of scripture.

i certainly didn't word it that way because i felt the sting of scripture. i worded it that way because so many people who use it, do so out of some superiority complex that they have. they don't actually use the verse in it's biblical context...they use it to justify how holy they feel they are.

that is why i worded it that way.

I think this is a valid point.Yet there are others who say, "thats out of context" to justify not obeying those scriptures that are crystal clear in meaning, so as to rationalize why they wont give up their pet sins.



car2ner -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/6/2008 4:00:54 PM)

Actually, quite often it is a disagreement on how the scripture is interpreted. What looks crystal clear to one is not viewed the same way by another. Often it is not an excuse to hold onto a pet sin.

But even if they did, it is God and the Holy Spirit who breaks that down. If you see the brother chosing foolishly, warn them. But it is not our job to make them change. That is God's job and His alone. It is also His job to determine someone's heart and their salvation and relationship with Him. Not ours to determine because, "a real christian wouldn't do that!".



phosadaud -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/6/2008 4:01:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hymnHIM

quote:

I would say that it's between me and God. If i have a drink of wine with dinner, there is nothing sinister going on. It's not leading me on a path to distruction. If i have 15 beers at a bar looking to drown my troubles, that's a whole 'nother issue altogether. same with a tatoo...maybe i'm commemorating something, or maybe i just like the look of something. it doesn't necissarly mean that i am rebelling or doing it for selfish purposes.


You owe me no explanation of why you want to do what you want to do. I am trying to help you understand why this verse is used. You are right, it is between you and God, until you bring it into a pubic forum, then you must expect replies. As the reader I must try to understand your reasoning. If I disagree, I must show you why I disagree. Is this being judgemental? Is this somehow making me holier than anyone? No, I must not compromise what I know to be the truth, so that others may feel better about their actions. I must not make something relative that is clearly not. The scripture you say that is being thrown at you is scripture and there are many others that back it up. We are bought at a great price, and we are no longer our own. Paul exclaimed that he was a slave to Christ. That means ones who's will is lost in another. Lastly this is a post of encouragement, not condemnation. I only desire to help you understand that many, perhaps most are not judging you, but perhaps trying only to help, while not watering down the truth.
God bless you,
Dan


I understand what you are saying, but after you've posted for a while around here, you will understand why those verses being thrown out make some of us want to gag. Trust me. There are folks who would find clipping your fingernails sinful and use those verses to justify why they say we are all going to hell.

While the verses are God's Word and good, around these forums, most of the time they are used (I won't say all), it is after folks were challenged to give a Scriptural reason for their belief. Instead of coming up with actual Scripture (eating toast in the AM is a sin and this is why), they respond with "we aren't to be like the world". It's not an answer, it's a superiority complex. That's what elastic is talking about.



HisFish -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/6/2008 4:23:45 PM)

quote:

Actually, quite often it is a disagreement on how the scripture is interpreted. What looks crystal clear to one is not viewed the same way by another. Often it is not an excuse to hold onto a pet sin

Are you saying there is no scripture that has clear meaning? If scripture say's "You shall not steal" then tell me what is unclear about it. Is every scripture that clear, no. but an awful lot of it that is, is either debated or discounted by those who have a reason why they will not abide by it.



HisFish -> RE: In the World Of the World (6/6/2008 4:47:01 PM)

quote:

understand what you are saying, but after you've posted for a while around here, you will understand why those verses being thrown out make some of us want to gag. Trust me. There are folks who would find clipping your fingernails sinful and use those verses to justify why they say we are all going to hell

Agreed, but that is only half of the story, here's the other half: "for me all things are lawful, but not all are profitable". That's the card that is played when the subject of drinking is brought up (that's not for you 'glass of wine with dinner folks', your in the minority), or when challenged about going to see "Saw 2" or any other vile movie of that sort, or those who say smoking weed is ok because it was put on earth by God etc, etc, etc. If i hear one more time about "Liberty" im going to gag. Christian liberty was never intended as an excuse for the sins that are defended on this very same forum.



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