RE: ID's to vote (Full Version)

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inthysite -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 4:04:06 PM)

quote:

Neither riding a motorcycle, not driving a car are Constitutionally guaranteed rights. So this is an invalid argument.


Okay, fine lets use your example then. It is a constitutional right to own a gun (at least for now [:D]) but in order to be able to buy a gun you have to have a background check done because of a law passed after James Brady was shot.

Now does the government pay for the background check? No. But owning a gun is a right as you say. Well the government passed a law that requires people to pay for that right.



Consecrated2God -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 4:04:42 PM)

quote:

not to mention, get nice "rims" for their car, electronics (cable TV, big screen TVs, stereos, cell phones), designer "hip hop" clothing, and other "luxuries"....


...and lots of fast food.



Random -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 4:04:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff_from_Kentucky

Go to the small local grocery stores in major cities. You don't see any middle class folks walking in there to buy lottery tickets. You see the poor from the neighborhood spending their last few dollars on the very small hope that they will hit the big time. I've seen it and I've done it. Lotteries are nothing more than a tax on the poor and the uneducated.


Let's say you are right about the grocery store. First of all, the non-poor people I know who buy lottery tickets don't buy them at small local grocery stores. They buy them at the convenience store in our building. So, that is a biased sample.

But again, even if 100% of the lottery tickets are bought by poor people, that does not mean that most poor people buy lottery tickets. It just means most lottery tickets are bought by poor people. They are two different statements, and not even remotely equivalent.

Most paper money is green.
Most green paper is money.

The first is true, the second is not.

ALL paper money is green (in the US).
Most green paper is money.

The first is still true, the second is not.

So, you may be right that most lottery tickets are bought by poor people, but you have done nothing to show that most poor people buy lottery tickets.



Consecrated2God -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 4:06:09 PM)

quote:

So, you may be right that most lottery tickets are bought by poor people, but you have done nothing to show that most poor people buy lottery tickets.


I bet you though that most poor people waste more than $10 every four years. I know we did.



Random -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 4:08:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: inthysite

quote:

Neither riding a motorcycle, not driving a car are Constitutionally guaranteed rights. So this is an invalid argument.


Okay, fine lets use your example then. It is a constitutional right to own a gun (at least for now [:D]) but in order to be able to buy a gun you have to have a background check done because of a law passed after James Brady was shot.

Now does the government pay for the background check? No. But owning a gun is a right as you say. Well the government passed a law that requires people to pay for that right.


Since I don't have a gun, I have no idea who pays for the background check. Does the buyer? Does the seller? I honestly have no idea. I always assumed they were free, but have not spent more than 11.3 seconds thinking about it before this post.

But, I would agree with you if you are saying that the background check should be free.



PhunkD -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 4:09:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God

quote:

So, you may be right that most lottery tickets are bought by poor people, but you have done nothing to show that most poor people buy lottery tickets.


I bet you though that most poor people waste more than $10 every four years. I know we did.



It really doesn't matter what poor people spend their money on.

If anyone doesn't vote because they cannot afford to do so, than that is counter to democracy.

Voting should be free. I can't believe that there are people arguing against this principal.



Random -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 4:10:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God

quote:

So, you may be right that most lottery tickets are bought by poor people, but you have done nothing to show that most poor people buy lottery tickets.


I bet you though that most poor people waste more than $10 every four years. I know we did.


That's fair. I would bet you that the government wastes enough money every month to pay for free IDs for the poor!



inthysite -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 4:11:24 PM)

Well it's pretty obvious that the voter ID won't be passed before this election, so if it ever does get passed that means it won't take effect at least for another 4 years.

So if the only argument is time and money then I believe that even the poorest of people can save $10 - $40 over the next 4 years and find at least one day when they aren't working to go down, or have someone take them down, to get an ID.

I don't see the problem here, if the real objection is just time and money that is.



Jeff_from_Kentucky -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 4:13:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PhunkD

Voting should be free. I can't believe that there are people arguing against this principal.


The right to vote is not and never has been free. It was bought with the blood of the men and women who fought for that right. A $10 fee for an ID is nothing compared to that.



inthysite -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 4:15:14 PM)

quote:

Voting should be free. I can't believe that there are people arguing against this principal.


Voting is free, no one is charging anyone at the door for a ballot. This issue it what is required to vote. It costs money in gas to drive down there so does that mean that it is no longer free to vote? Especially with gas prices these days and the distance some people have to drive to vote.

Should the government now provide transportation for the poor as well. I know that the campaigns do this but that is by their choice and is not the government doing it by mandate.

Please, quit trying to cloud the issue.[8|]



Jeff_from_Kentucky -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 4:16:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: inthysite

Well it's pretty obvious that the voter ID won't be passed before this election, so if it ever does get passed that means it won't take effect at least for another 4 years.


Actually, it is already a law in many states. It is here in Kentucky and it is in Indiana. Ohio is considering it but I don't believe they have passed one yet, though when I lived in Ohio I did have to show an ID every time I voted.



Consecrated2God -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 4:17:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Random

quote:

ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God

quote:

So, you may be right that most lottery tickets are bought by poor people, but you have done nothing to show that most poor people buy lottery tickets.


I bet you though that most poor people waste more than $10 every four years. I know we did.


That's fair. I would bet you that the government wastes enough money every month to pay for free IDs for the poor!


True.

I think photo ID's should be required to vote, and although it is not undue hardship to obtain one, I think it's reasonable to provide those who for whatever reason can't afford one with a free one.



Jeff_from_Kentucky -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 4:19:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God

I think photo ID's should be required to vote, and although it is not undue hardship to obtain one, I think it's reasonable to provide those who for whatever reason can't afford one with a free one.


I have no problem with that.



colliefan -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 5:06:09 PM)

The majority of lotto tickets sold are in the less affluent sections of town If would be willing to be that a larger percentage of the poor purchase tickets as opposed to the middle class and the rich.

The proposal to require identification in no way disenfranchises individuals. It just makes it harder for dems to commit voter fraud; and since this is where they seem to excel, it is why they are squealing like a stuck pig.



musicboss11 -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 5:07:43 PM)

I have some family that live in Oregon, and their state is all vote by mail. No ID to worry about when going to a polling place, because there is no polling place. No worries about getting ID, or traveling to get the ID, or anything else. Maybe that would work better to calm the ID/no ID debate? [:D] Just a thought. [:)]



JimboFletch -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 5:15:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

Oh, good night, you're a trip, Phunks. Don't you know what has happened in the last 100 years? The people who died for trying to assure the "right" to vote? The people who were kept from the polls because others did not WANT them to vote? In the USA? Amazing.

Oh, yeah -- and Cow

They marched and fought and were jailed and killed to fight against Jim Crow laws that denied them their RIGHT to vote. They had the right all along but people in power put up obstacles that prevented them from exercising their RIGHT to vote. Before that, there were laws the prevented any one from voting that didn't own land. We've had no shortage of elitists, under all kinds of guises, who try to insure that only the "right" kind of people vote. Including people that haven't seen 3 years' wages in a row that amounted to $25,000 with a family of four.



Jeff_from_Kentucky -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 5:18:20 PM)

To me, voting by mail increases the risk of voter fraud and reduces your privacy. Any election employee can find out exactly who you vote for. And, how does the state know that the person who requested the ballot is the one who actually voted? I have a 19 year old autistic son. If I lived in Oregon, I could register him to vote and then I could fill out and sign his ballot and return it. That's voter fraud.



JimboFletch -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 5:19:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PhunkD
Voting should be free. I can't believe that there are people arguing against this principal.

Don't you think it's interesting that the ones who make the biggest racket against taxes are willing to tax everyone another ten bucks before they can vote?

A tax is a tax by any other name.



kernsfamily -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 5:21:54 PM)

quote:

The proposal to require identification in no way disenfranchises individuals. It just makes it harder for dems to commit voter fraud; and since this is where they seem to excel, it is why they are squealing like a stuck pig.


and, by having measures in place, which greatly REDUCES the opportunity for voter fraud, THUS, it would give Dems LESS of an opportunity to claim "Voter Fraud" when an election doesn't go "their way"....



JimboFletch -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 5:22:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff_from_Kentucky

To me, voting by mail increases the risk of voter fraud and reduces your privacy. Any election employee can find out exactly who you vote for. And, how does the state know that the person who requested the ballot is the one who actually voted? I have a 19 year old autistic son. If I lived in Oregon, I could register him to vote and then I could fill out and sign his ballot and return it. That's voter fraud.

I'm assuming you're against the military using absentee ballots like I used when I was in service when I was halfway around the globe.
[sm=aside.gif]



JimboFletch -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 5:28:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kernsfamily

quote:

The proposal to require identification in no way disenfranchises individuals. It just makes it harder for dems to commit voter fraud; and since this is where they seem to excel, it is why they are squealing like a stuck pig.


and, by having measures in place, which greatly REDUCES the opportunity for voter fraud, THUS, it would give Dems LESS of an opportunity to claim "Voter Fraud" when an election doesn't go "their way"....

I thought it was the Dems, not Republicans, credited with voting multiple times in places like Chicago. No?



kernsfamily -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 5:29:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff_from_Kentucky

To me, voting by mail increases the risk of voter fraud and reduces your privacy. Any election employee can find out exactly who you vote for. And, how does the state know that the person who requested the ballot is the one who actually voted? I have a 19 year old autistic son. If I lived in Oregon, I could register him to vote and then I could fill out and sign his ballot and return it. That's voter fraud.

I'm assuming you're against the military using absentee ballots like I used when I was in service when I was halfway around the globe.
[sm=aside.gif]


didn't the dems in the last few elections want to disregard/not fully count active-military 'absentee' ballots from overseas? and, what was the reasoning for that, do ya think?



Jeff_from_Kentucky -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 5:33:13 PM)

Jimbo, I am not against absentee ballots for the military though there is the potential for voter fraud just as in Oregon. I was in the military for 20 years and I know of cases of voter fraud that occurred with the absentee ballots. Most of the time, the spouse would fill out the ballot of the service member, sign their name to it, and mail it back in.

And yes, I reported it every time I heard about it, even if they happened to support the same candidates I did.



PhunkD -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 5:41:32 PM)

quote:


didn't the dems in the last few elections want to disregard/not fully count active-military 'absentee' ballots from overseas? and, what was the reasoning for that, do ya think?


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9507E0D8133BF936A25754C0A9679C8B63



colliefan -> RE: ID's to vote (6/6/2008 5:42:40 PM)

Remember Flordia 2000: where every vote must be counted until the election comes up in favor of Gore. And the military ballots can't be counted.



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