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RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd - 6/8/2008 9:13:58 PM
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KickingBird
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I believe since the fall, fallen man has always sought out something to worship, whether that is self, sun, moon, stars, Buddha, Allah or another God of their own choosing. I feel it is innate in man to know of God, within our consciences’, and to know the difference b/w good and evil. After all this is what Adam and Eve discovered b/c of the fall, (difference b/w good and evil). They ate of that tree, right? Now, if our consciences’ (or more appropriately unregenerate man’s conscience) were darkened, this would suggest it was darkened to the revelation of our triune God. Remember what many of the parables were about, they were written to be understood by those who had ears to hear and the rest were blinded.
So, a revelation of a God is very plausible, but the true triune God was not preferred, so God gave them over to a reprobate mind to worship idols made of gold and whatnot.
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
There is a tension here I realize that b/c we are also told that:
Hbr 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];
Hbr 2:4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
And again we are told where God blinds those who do not have ears to hear, and sends them a lie:
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
So, the age old question rears its ugly head. How can unregenerate man be held responsible for not believing in the one true God, even though they are given ample proof, and are eternally responsible for this knowledge, when God is the one who sends the delusions and blinds certain people? He also hardens whom He will. This is the tension that exists. Man is responsible yet God clearly does as He so chooses.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Any thoughts???
This topic is fascinating. WOW!
KB
< Message edited by KickingBird -- 6/9/2008 4:59:00 AM >
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RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd - 6/9/2008 12:28:40 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
romans 1
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
to know something is knowledge is it not
Doesn't mean they are born with it...
quote:
romans 2
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
am i missing something? would not God's Law written on their hearts be an innate knowledge of God.
Where does it say they are born with it?
John
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RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd - 6/9/2008 8:49:11 AM
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drmark
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So how did they get it in the first place? I thought everyone was so totally depraved that no one could do anything "good" without God breathing for them!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd - 6/9/2008 10:02:54 AM
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HisFish
Posts: 557
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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I think it is a question of general knowledge vs intimate knowledge.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd - 6/9/2008 12:03:52 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 1747
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From: Northern IL
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quote:
I feel it is innate in man to know of God, within our consciences’,
Yes. I believe that because God created us we have a "sense" of Him. That's what part of this chapter is referring to.
_____________________________
Deb
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RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd - 6/9/2008 8:31:02 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 527
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
Are there degrees to rejecting God? Johnmark, would a better question be, are there degrees of sin? I watched part of the movie last night on the Green River killer. He was a detestable human being. Are we all capable of these same crimes? That is, could I or you or just any person commit the same kind of murders? I would say no. This man did not begin by killing. He first began carousing with prostitutes. Then he took it to a deeper step. As time went on, he enjoyed killing.
In other words, he became more depraved the more he committed murder. There came a point, and most likely early on when he began killing, in which he could not stop killing. The sin had overtaken him completely.
The converse can be said of a Christian who submits to the leading of the Holy Spirit. The Bible speaks of the believer being changed into Christ's likeness from one degree of glory to another.
i understand what you are saying about movement and i like the example of the christian who moves toward sanctification.
in the romans 1 passage i see this this movement. but the movement starts from a postion of knowledge and moves to a darkening of the heart.
1:21
For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened
this darkend heart then moves to a depraved mind
1:28
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper
although verse 28 could simply be restating what was written in verse 21.but still the movement is from knowledge to a depraved mind. the verse states that they acknowledge God no longer, not that they never acknowledged God
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RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd - 6/9/2008 8:34:23 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
romans 1
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
to know something is knowledge is it not
Doesn't mean they are born with it...
quote:
romans 2
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
am i missing something? would not God's Law written on their hearts be an innate knowledge of God.
Where does it say they are born with it?
John
okay, so you think the better way to read the passage is that they did not have the knowledge of God, they gain the knowledge of God, and then they reject it?
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RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd - 6/10/2008 6:02:03 PM
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Bluethread
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Whether we are born sinful or nto is unclear. David seems to believed he would see his stillborn illegitimate son. Also, if children are born sinful, Yeshua(Jesus) would have been sinful at birth. I believe, what we inherit from Adam is the propecity to sin, which Yeshua was able to resist.
The knowledge we have of Adonai is in the nature of things, not just nature itself. In the case of the infant, it is aware of it's parents voices from birth and therefore, knows to reverence them as one would Adonai.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 6/10/2008 6:10:55 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd - 6/10/2008 7:57:16 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
Go read John Darby's commentary of this because I think he gives a great explanation. I would try to convey his message to you, but I'd mess it up.  What I gathered from it was that ALL of mankind has a basic knowledge God, not to be confussed with a saving knowledge.
yeah, i agree with you that we are born with a knowledge of God. and i believe that saving knowledge is more than mental ascent, it requires faith and trust as drmark stated earlier
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RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd - 6/10/2008 8:04:13 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 527
Joined: 7/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Whether we are born sinful or nto is unclear. David seems to believed he would see his stillborn illegitimate son. Also, if children are born sinful, Yeshua(Jesus) would have been sinful at birth. I believe, what we inherit from Adam is the propecity to sin, which Yeshua was able to resist.
The knowledge we have of Adonai is in the nature of things, not just nature itself. In the case of the infant, it is aware of it's parents voices from birth and therefore, knows to reverence them as one would Adonai.
i think we learn from genesis that adam gained the knowledge of good and evil when he sinned, something he did not have prior to sin. he passes that knowledge on to his children. i think we all agree that man has knowledge of evil, but somehow we seem to forget that adam also recieved the knowledge of good. if he passed on one trait it seems logical that he passed on the other.
i have also come to understand in paul's writings when he talks about sin,death and adam he is often talking about physical death, 1 cor 15 and romans 5.
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RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd - 6/10/2008 11:58:52 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
romans 1
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
to know something is knowledge is it not
Doesn't mean they are born with it...
quote:
romans 2
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
am i missing something? would not God's Law written on their hearts be an innate knowledge of God.
Where does it say they are born with it?
John
okay, so you think the better way to read the passage is that they did not have the knowledge of God, they gain the knowledge of God, and then they reject it?
Knowledge of something doesn't always equate to belief... One can know the Word of God from the first word to the last and have no clue to the things of the Spirit. Knowledge isn't wisdom...
John
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RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd - 6/11/2008 12:04:38 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
So how did they get it in the first place?
Like anything else it was a gift from God... For those who later reject, they simply were there of their own accord like those in John 6:65-66....
quote:
I thought everyone was so totally depraved that no one could do anything "good" without God breathing for them!
The bible says the toil and even the tender mercies of the wicked is sin... So what good thing can the depraved do? Even their sacrifice is an abomination to the Lord... The only thing that makes what the saved do good is the fact that God is working through them... That which is not done in faith is a sin... Since the the depraved have no faith what isn't sinful?
John
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RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd - 6/11/2008 12:10:28 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Whether we are born sinful or nto is unclear.
The fact one must be born again makes in pretty clear... If man isn't born sinful a child could have been placed on the cross... The flesh cannot please God, that leaves on the Spirit...
quote:
David seems to believed he would see his stillborn illegitimate son.
It was more like follow his son in that he too would die...
quote:
Also, if children are born sinful, Yeshua(Jesus) would have been sinful at birth.
No... Jesus has always been fully God as well...
quote:
I believe, what we inherit from Adam is the propecity to sin, which Yeshua was able to resist.
We are born dead... We do not have the Spirit at birth... That takes place ONCE at the second birth...
John
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RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd - 6/11/2008 1:48:31 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1161
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Whether we are born sinful or nto is unclear.
The fact one must be born again makes in pretty clear... If man isn't born sinful a child could have been placed on the cross... The flesh cannot please God, that leaves on the Spirit...
Only if we could catch one before his first act of rebellion.
quote:
quote:
David seems to believed he would see his stillborn illegitimate son.
It was more like follow his son in that he too would die...
Such is your interpretation, please justify.
quote:
quote:
Also, if children are born sinful, Yeshua(Jesus) would have been sinful at birth.
No... Jesus has always been fully God as well...
If condemnation is genetic, then why would Yeshua(Jesus) not be condemned through his mitacondrial DNA? Thus, I believe he inherited the propencity to sin. Knowledge is not hereditary, it is taught.
quote:
quote:
I believe, what we inherit from Adam is the propecity to sin, which Yeshua was able to resist.
We are born dead... We do not have the Spirit at birth... That takes place ONCE at the second birth...
Gen 2:7 the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
In hebrew ruach can be translated as breath or spirit. Thus, I believe, Adam recieved the Ruach and passed this on to us. I also believe, he then taught his children the knowledge of evil and over the course of time our natural ability to make independant choices was adapted into a rebellious spirit, as we see in the next 4 chapters of B'rasheet(Genesis).
I think the verses you may be refering to are saying that we rebel from the womb, not that we inherit condemnation. It is hard for me to respond fully since you did not present Scripture and for the most part do not provide a logical argument, but merely speak dogmatically. I generally do not accept things as fact just because someone says so and I suggest you do the same.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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