RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (Full Version)

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csl7037 -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/11/2008 11:45:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames
I am not speaking to you personally but to Churches in general. I have been in Church leadership for over 45 years and one of my duties for our denomination now is calming down proplems that arise in our member Churches.


Wow! What a job!

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames
Do not gather up a bunch of folks by finding others who are stirred up o do not go around trying to stir up others to your way of thinking. Do not take a large group to "Confront" the leadership. To do any on that is divisive and a sin.


I'm trying so hard to avoid that at all costs! One reason, I'm glad to be able to post this here. I appreciate the feedback here but I could never voice most of this to church members, only a little to dh, trying to do so with the right attitude.

I don't know what I need to do - adjust my attitude, try to speerhead some changes...probably both. Just leave? Maybe eventually. But I know I need to be patient and wait on clarity from the Lord - and agreement with dh. I'm not sure where I'm at with this at the moment, though. Some days are more frustrating that others. I'm trying to be wise about it, though.



Szaftoo -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/11/2008 12:07:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: csl7037
It's been hovering at 300-something for quite sometime. Dh and I came from a church of about 7,000! This is the smallest church we've ever been in. Sometimes I have wondered if I just feel so disconnected because we don't seem to know many people but I don't think it's the new people that make me feel that way as much as we've had so many people leave. Maybe part of me just doesn't want to bother to meet new people any more. But, at the same time, it doesn't seem like the new people, or anyone, is really plugged in anymore. There's just not much to be plugged into. The church where my kids go to school has several thousand and I think it feels more like a family or a community; and I think I know more people there than at my own church. We've always had home "cell" groups. That worked OK for a while but we've not really been in a consistent group now for a couple years (at least). Maybe I just wish our church would have something like Sunday school classes now that we're in our building. I think I'm boiling a big part of this down to feeling really disconnected. I'm sure I can't be the only person feeling this way.


I pray I don't offend you in any way. We attended a very well known church of over 10,000 for 25 years and my husband felt led to attend a church closer to our home. I was OK with the move but left my heart and soul at our old church. I never verbalized it but compared the worship and teaching at every service. I missed the people and the ministries I was involved in. My growth in the Lord suffered because I made a decision to not be happy with the new church.
I started praying fot the church and its leadership and in doing so my attitude changed and I now love my new church. It's a new season for me and this is where I am to be.
Maybe if you made an effort to stop criticizing your pastor and start praying for him, things would change. If you want more ministries or Sunday School classes, speak with the pastor and start one.
It doesn't matter if other people feel the same, you are only responsible for yourself.



Lapidoth -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/11/2008 12:44:14 PM)

quote:

compared the worship and teaching at every service.


This is off topic, but this was a statement that I see everytime someone
comes here. They don't like the church they came from, they don't like
the people there, etc. etc. But, invariably they try to change us into what
they didn't like about the one they left. I am so puzzled at this dilemma.

We are straight forward. No thrills, no frills. Studying the Bible without
the glasses of denominational slants. It says what it says, and means what
it means.

Okay, I have been in similar circumstances myself.
I like what Samuel did while under Eli.
He served God in spite of the bad leadership of Eli and sons.
I try to do that. If I had a Sunday School class, that was my focus.
Ministering to the kids being sure to tell them what the Bible said and
not some church philosophy. No politically correct jargon.

And when I did the nursery, I was the parental type that changed the
diapers, sang songs, and watched over them as they slept. Making the
nursery itself a safe haven. Our kids need real ministry as soon as they
are born.

But even the most humble find themselves at odds with those who insist
that it's their way or no way. Human nature we should be overcoming.

Churches that truly are gathering in one mind and one accord are rare
at best. God's Word is the only thing that stays on track and in tune.

So, I do my best to stay in the Word more than daily if possible.
And to pray for all the things that seem awry to me.
It even seems a waste of time to pray for this country, but I do it anyway. lol.

God Bless.



prophet -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/11/2008 8:02:22 PM)

test...alas....trouble posting



earthless -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/11/2008 8:05:53 PM)

check....



prophet -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/11/2008 8:26:01 PM)

test....having problems posting longer posts.... [&o]



prophet -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/11/2008 9:14:32 PM)

quote:

I like what Samuel did while under Eli.
He served God in spite of the bad leadership of Eli and sons.


Interesting...but Samuel was called to takeover the leadership of Israel.
Most of us are not called for that... [;)]

i can identify with this as i have just left my olde church which my family have been worshippin and servin in for the last 15 yaers.
New pastor brought in questionale methods (doctrinal) and abstained himself from answering.
Could not worship and submit to such leadership, plus prevent family from such teachings, so we left.
Right or wrong?



rcjames -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/12/2008 6:36:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophet
Could not worship and submit to such leadership, plus prevent family from such teachings, so we left.
Right or wrong?


That would depend on what doctrine, methods, and not responding that the Pastor was promoting and doing.


Thanks
RC



prophet -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/12/2008 7:50:27 PM)

Doctrines: Toronto blessings connected stuff and like. Calling on the Holy spirit.

Asked the questions pertaining to scriptures:
a) where does it show we call on the Holy Spirit to come?

b) the methods spend 4 sessions out of 11 on the Holy spirit alone with a weekend away with the Holy Spirit.
2 sessions on Jesus. i was wondering why the Holy spirit was promoting itself so much? that was a
question.
c) where does it show that God causes his children to bark, roar like animals

no answers..... [&o]



BibleL7 -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/13/2008 6:37:47 AM)

I am a little confused I guess at what you are expecting from the church. Perhaps it is just the matter of you saying you tried different programs and never seemed to follow through like Purpose Driven and yet you say there is nothing wrong but possibly weak leadership. And I truly do not see how ever a new building solved any problems in any church, all that does is move the problem. From your posts it seems like this is possibly a seeker friendly type of church.

My take on what church should be is a group of believers gathering together to praise and worship the Lord together and to learn of His Word and to get to know each other and help each other grow in the Lord. The pastor is to be main teacher of word and oversee the congregation in being sure they are understanding and growing in the Lord and lead by example. I know that many say that it is the Holy Spirit that is our teacher only but He uses preachers. He uses others to help us learn and grow. The church is to be different parts working together to make a whole with the Lord as its purpose and head.

You said you and hubby are in ministry or leadership you should be able to talk with the pastor about this. As for getting people into the church yes it is the individual believers who are to disciple others and tell them about Jesus. But then it is not the number in attendance that should be look at. The question is are those coming being fed the Word, are they given opportunity to praise the Lord in song are they giving of self and resources to the Lord?

You did mention that you have not been fellowshipping with new comers it seems that you do need to take some time and get into the Word get into a right relationship with the Lord perhaps taking some time away from attending church and seek the Lord. Then come back and get to know a few people and worship the Lord with them and encourage them and hopefully find encouragement from them. I am not familiar with other posts or the thread as I do not visit the marriage section being single. But it seems this is causing problems between you an hubby which is not good. I will say that first is relationship with Lord then spouse then family then the church seems perhaps part of that is a bit mixed up in your situation.



rcjames -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/13/2008 10:34:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophet

Doctrines: Toronto blessings connected stuff and like. Calling on the Holy spirit.

Asked the questions pertaining to scriptures:
a) where does it show we call on the Holy Spirit to come?

b) the methods spend 4 sessions out of 11 on the Holy spirit alone with a weekend away with the Holy Spirit.
2 sessions on Jesus. i was wondering why the Holy spirit was promoting itself so much? that was a
question.
c) where does it show that God causes his children to bark, roar like animals

no answers..... [&o]


I understand your problem with the Toronto heresy.

I am a little concerned about your reluctance to study the Holy Spirit and find out just how important His ministry is to a Believers life.

4 sessions would not even scratch the surface on the Ministry and work of the Holy Spirit.

But nevertheless,the Toronto nonsense and the barking would be sufficient reason for me to boogie out the back door.

Thanks
RC



M-Paul -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/13/2008 10:58:20 AM)

I think there are real problems with pastoral leadership in our times. Where does that come from?? Could it be, that it arises from the congregational model of the church not being biblical?? My questioning matters such as this led me to the house church movement.

My theory is, that the church has the best chance of avoiding abuse and fulfilling what God intends for it, by coming as close as possible to the biblical model of the church -- and that isn't congregational.

Barna research group, a leading Christian statistical organization, notes that statistics indicate the house church movement will become the mainline in Protestant Christianity, and George Barna has joined up with us.

For me the congregational model vs. the house church model is the difference between relevant vs. irrelevant Christianity. (However, I do not refer to the simple church as being a valid house church model). It has taken away all my frustration with the church. It just changes everything on how to practice my faith within a community. It's subtle and it takes time to realize everything, but it's nice. However, abuse can arise anywhere, when the wrong people are involved.

My website has an article explaining briefly but succinctly the house church movement.

M-Paul



rcjames -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/13/2008 1:08:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: M-Paul

I think there are real problems with pastoral leadership in our times. Where does that come from?? Could it be, that it arises from the congregational model of the church not being biblical?? My questioning matters such as this led me to the house church movement.

My theory is, that the church has the best chance of avoiding abuse and fulfilling what God intends for it, by coming as close as possible to the biblical model of the church -- and that isn't congregational.

Barna research group, a leading Christian statistical organization, notes that statistics indicate the house church movement will become the mainline in Protestant Christianity, and George Barna has joined up with us.

For me the congregational model vs. the house church model is the difference between relevant vs. irrelevant Christianity. (However, I do not refer to the simple church as being a valid house church model). It has taken away all my frustration with the church. It just changes everything on how to practice my faith within a community. It's subtle and it takes time to realize everything, but it's nice. However, abuse can arise anywhere, when the wrong people are involved.

My website has an article explaining briefly but succinctly the house church movement.

M-Paul


So you like the Lone Ranner type of "Gathering". A lot of folks do, I just see a lot of problems with it lining up with the New Testment example. But that is for another thread.

Start one and we will discuss it.

Thanks
RC



M-Paul -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/13/2008 2:41:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames
So you like the Lone Ranner type of "Gathering". A lot of folks do, I just see a lot of problems with it lining up with the New Testment example. But that is for another thread.

Start one and we will discuss it.


Lone Ranger?!??

Using this term against the house church is an appeal to the emotions to try to distort and degrade.

Even the simple church is not a Lone Ranger arrangement, and applying the term to the house church/whole church misses the reality of the church structure by 100 miles at least. House churches can have member ship in the hundreds of thousands.

No, I really don't think you want a conversation about the house church movement. When a person starts off immediately trying to degrade someone else with inappropriate and completely inaccurate name calling, I think that means there is something else going on.

M-Paul



rcjames -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/13/2008 3:22:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: M-Paul
House churches can have member ship in the hundreds of thousands.


Must be a big house.

Do you want to start a tread, cause we are going to get shut down discussing this here.

Thanks
RC



csl7037 -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/13/2008 7:41:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BibleL7
From your posts it seems like this is possibly a seeker friendly type of church.


I've heard it said that we are trying to be "seeker friendly" - but there never seems to be much follow through or consistency on even that! I think if you're going to be seeking to pull people in, there's needs to be something for them when they get there. It seems, like I said, like a Sunday only crowd and I think new people must come in and think "and?" or "now what?" But it seems ideal for people who just want to play church - show up on Sunday, we'll play nice music, pastor tells some jokes, your kids'll get hyped up on sugar and have fun (I don't think they learn anything), then you'll go home and nobody bothers you or expects anything of you till next Sunday, if you wanna come next Sunday.

After 7 years, that's kinda what I'm thinking. Maybe this is the way it's always been but it was too easy to explain it away by not having "a place of our own" and maybe I just expected things to come together when we got in this building. That was probably silly.



rcjames -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/14/2008 9:53:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: csl7037
I've heard it said that we are trying to be "seeker friendly" - but there never seems to be much follow through or consistency on even that! I think if you're going to be seeking to pull people in, there's needs to be something for them when they get there. It seems, like I said, like a Sunday only crowd and I think new people must come in and think "and?" or "now what?" But it seems ideal for people who just want to play church - show up on Sunday, we'll play nice music, pastor tells some jokes, your kids'll get hyped up on sugar and have fun (I don't think they learn anything), then you'll go home and nobody bothers you or expects anything of you till next Sunday, if you wanna come next Sunday.


Are you serious?

No prayer meetings, annointing with oil and praying for the sick, no Biblically based instructional sermons, no Sunday School that teaches the kids the Oracles of God, no youth group that teaches teen about Christ and how to respect themselves, no feeling of the presence of the Holy Spirit of God during praise and worship, no loving and lasting friendships with the other believers, no celebrating of the wonders of God in the lives of the congregants; WOW!

Church is for;

(Eph 4:12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

(Eph 4:13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

(Eph 4:14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

(Eph 4:15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

(Eph 4:16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

And you say you have none of this in your Church?

Jeeeezzzzzzzz, if that is really the case, I think I would be gone from there and on to someplace that was Scriptural.

Thanks
RC

edited for spelling



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/14/2008 12:14:08 PM)

When I was in the old church, I finally had one pastor I could trust. I had no qualms about being in the building alone with him. He didn't try to use me or my children, and he wasn't unfairly judgmental. The man loved G-d, and he loved people.

However, I watched one unhappy assistant pastor draw his wife into his own unhappiness with the pastor (which was easy -- she was a pushover). They drew another ministerial staff member into it. These drew more into their junk, until they created what I called the Triple Trinity -- nine of the most unhappy, noisy, belligerent people you could ever hope not to see.

At the time, there were 220 in attendance on a Sunday morning. These nine talked and created rumors while the 211 went happily on to church, unaware of the damage the Triple Trinity would manage to pull off.

The pastor was sent away because of the Triple Trinity's gossip, lies, and persistence. A new pastor came. A month following the new pastor, because of his complete lack of integrity, we went from 220 to 75 in attendance. A year later, the 75 dropped to 45, and I was kicked out at that time. A year later, the 45 became 25 on a good Sunday.

Do what you must do, to worship G-d in the manner He has called you to, but don't let anyone ever have reason to accuse you of causing division, gossiping, or of taking others with you. If others call you for advice (as people did to me after I was booted), say nothing to influence them.

Looking back on the experience, I can at least say that I did my best to influence no one to leave; in fact, I did the opposite. Perhaps, however, I would have been kinder to tell them "FIRE! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!" Today, that would be my message to them all, but I am glad I said nothing to encourage anyone to leave then.



csl7037 -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/14/2008 12:35:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames
No prayer meetings, annointing with oil and praying for the sick,

The men's group was doing this for a while - well, a few of the men were doing this and a bunch of others got all bent out of shape. Occassionally he'll call for prayer time during the service but that goes in spurts and it's been a while. Nothing is consistent and sometimes I think what "we" believe isn't even consistent. There's not really agreement among the members on this type of thing and I truly don't think the Pastor knows what he believes!

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames
no Biblically based instructional sermons,

Sometimes. Used to be moreso. A lot of the time he just talks in circles anymore. And, what he says this week, he might say the opposite a month from now!

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames
no Sunday School that teaches the kids the Oracles of God,

Not that I can tell. They run around like animals, have lots of sugar, and come home with toys. I don't think they're learning anything.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames
no youth group that teaches teen about Christ and how to respect themselves,

The music minister recently took over after the youth minister left - VERY BAD situation! Things seem to be going well with the youth, they really do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames
no feeling of the presence of the Holy Spirit of God during praise and worship,

I'd say sometimes. Not sure how much of that is my problem, though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames
no loving and lasting friendships with the other believers, no celebrating of the wonders of God in the lives of the congregants; WOW!

We have our "cell group" and a few other long time friends. I mean, we've been there 7 years. But it's not got the feelng of community and family and growth it had in the beginning. About 5 years ago, we had a tremendous cell group that was growing and learning and we were really close - I think there are only us and one other family from that time that are still there (and that other family he's a deacon). We do have friends there - one family's only been there a year or so and we've become great friends with them.

It has it's up moment - leadership is lacking. And my patience is lacking. I don't know.



rcjames -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/14/2008 2:13:02 PM)

I am sorry that your present "church" experince is not as it should be (as laid out in Scripture).

Run Forrest Run.


Thanks
RC



prophet -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/15/2008 7:34:31 PM)

Hi RC,

i have no problems studying about the Holy Spirit at all.
My question of this course is that:( This is a course about christianity) why does the spirit of this course point towards itself more than the Lord Jesus. My scriptures tells me that the Holy Spirit will testify of Jesus and not of Himself. Discernment no?

Latest, the study on the Holy Spirit is not a study at all. It was all about praying to the holy spirit and getting people to receive the spirit. [:'(]
A Toronto typical......... [&o]

Shalom



rcjames -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/16/2008 9:34:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophet

Hi RC,

i have no problems studying about the Holy Spirit at all.
My question of this course is that:( This is a course about christianity) why does the spirit of this course point towards itself more than the Lord Jesus. My scriptures tells me that the Holy Spirit will testify of Jesus and not of Himself. Discernment no?
Latest, the study on the Holy Spirit is not a study at all. It was all about praying to the holy spirit and getting people to receive the spirit. [:'(]
A Toronto typical......... [&o]


Sounds like you are in a problem situation.

There is no instructions in Scripture about praying to the Holy Ghost.

We are to pray to the Father in the Name of Jesus; period.

Thanks
RC



prophet -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/16/2008 7:27:44 PM)

RC
No problem for me...i have already left.
However, from what i am hearing whats happening, sheep are being led to the slaughter of the Toronto type of spirit initiation. [:o]

Sad...after being in that church for 15 years



yustme -> RE: Lack of respect for Pastor. (6/19/2008 8:55:18 PM)

Maybe I shouldn't poke my nose in here,but I grew up in church,and I can speak from experience.I'm almost 64yrs and I remember when the services were annionted by the HS.Well God is still very present,but not the HS.There is an old saying,"everything rises and falls on leadership." If the leadership is what their supposed to be in Christ,most of the time the church will flurish.If not,it generaly dies.But most Pastors won't accept blame.



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