RE: Dying To Self (Full Version)

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URForgiven -> RE: Dying To Self (6/13/2008 1:33:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

What Paul describes in Romans 7 is the experience of every Christian, under grace, who is abiding in Christ.
No, what Paul describes in Romans 8 is the experience of every Christian, under grace, who is abiding in Christ:

Verse 2 - through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death

Verse 4 - [we] do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit

Verse 5 - those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires

Verse 6 - the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace

Verse 9 - you are controlled by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you

Verse 10 - if Christ is in you, your spirit is alive because of righteousness

Verse 13 - if you live according to the Spirit, you will live

Romans 8 is all about dying to self. Romans 7 is all about being a wretched (wo)man who needs rescue from this body of death (verse 24). Thanks be to God - through Jesus Christ our Lord - that He can enable us to die to self and abide in Him!


Your right...I should have said Romans 7 is the experience of every conscious Christian, My mistake.

Peace



drmark -> RE: Dying To Self (6/13/2008 3:10:12 PM)

It's not your first one, URF! Romans 7 is the experience of every unsanctified Christian, but that's not what this thread's about. This thread's about dying to self, which is called entire sanctification in my tradition, and is aptly described in Romans 8.



pstrdebi -> RE: Dying To Self (6/13/2008 5:32:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: indigoblue2008

Friends, true repentance is not easily achieved, one has to make deliberate choices for holiness, goodness, virtue and seek the face of God daily and spend time with Him in His Word. "One week without God makes one weak." For individuals like me who led a damaging life prior to Acceptance of Jesus the uphill climb is often more difficult than one could imagine.

Brothers and Sisters in Jesus Christ, our minds and the adversaries snares are our battlefields.

Everyday when you awake, a choice is to be made in whom you will serve. Will it be you, or the Lord?


and seek the face of God daily

This is so important.
David was called by God, "a man after My own heart."... How in the world could this be so?

He lied, he connived, he committed adultery, he murdered, etc.

What was the main key to his success? He repented... he turned... he got on his face before God. He got up, brushed himself off, admitted his shortcomings, died to self... and moved on.

He had to do this several times though... it wasn't an overnight process. And because he did... God called him "a man after My own heart."
[:)]



SonInMe1 -> RE: Dying To Self (6/13/2008 7:30:13 PM)

Christ literally died to self. Why? Was it blind obediance? It seems in the garden His example was how hard it was to die to self but He did so anyways. Why?

He loved the Father and recognised His will was better. Thats a little complicated I guess because of Who Jesus was, but I think its a fine example of how we can die to self....

life just ain't about us. If there is any common thread that ties all of the bible its this...when we are about ourselves, we distance ourselves from God. When we are about Him, not only do we get closer to our source for all good things, God, but He adds all those things we worry about anyways....if memory serves, Matthew 6:25-33.



drmark -> RE: Dying To Self (6/13/2008 8:16:55 PM)

quote:

Christ literally died to self. Why? Was it blind obediance? It seems in the garden His example was how hard it was to die to self but He did so anyways. Why?
What would you consider to be "blind obedience", SonInMe1? Does God not expect us to understand, at least at some level, what He wants us to obey? Christ's example in the Garden shows me His reliance on the grace of His Father, not how hard it should be for us to do this on our own. "Let go and let God" is how the old-timers preached it!



Cloak -> RE: Dying To Self (6/13/2008 11:19:34 PM)

That is a VERY critical process and principle in a believer's life. If we are to imitate Christ, we have to die to ourselves on a daily basis by making choices that pleases God not the world, the spirit not the flesh.

It is becoming Christlike every day even if in new baby steps. It is the hallmark of being a true Christian!



drmark -> RE: Dying To Self (6/13/2008 11:24:26 PM)

quote:

That is a VERY critical process and principle in a believer's life.
Cloak, would you consider "daily dying to self" critical enough to distinguish true Believers from pretend Christians?



kingdust -> RE: Dying To Self (6/14/2008 7:23:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

And that flesh does not go away, it does not get better, it does not improve. It can only be controlled, and it can only be controlled by the Spirit of Jesus Christ that now indwells us.
Peace


Your view of flesh is most propounding, if not revolutionary.
Because a lot of people think being good is to shape flesh good or being right is to set the flesh up right, they try to 'improve' the flesh, including me.

That is why I am wondering that after more than a decade being a Christian, my flesh is still the same, having the same taste, same excitement, same demand, same value...

Coincidently, my pastor said the same thing, and I wonder how many believers really got hit big time by that statement.

However, that answers for the long struggle I have against my flesh- it is not to be renovated or united with my new born spirit, meaning to fight till death.

Am I getting it right?



Cloak -> RE: Dying To Self (6/14/2008 7:35:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

That is a VERY critical process and principle in a believer's life.
Cloak, would you consider "daily dying to self" critical enough to distinguish true Believers from pretend Christians?


It certainly IS an earmark that distinguishes a true authentic Christian from a false synthetic Christian.



kingdust -> RE: Dying To Self (6/14/2008 7:36:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cloak

That is a VERY critical process and principle in a believer's life. If we are to imitate Christ, we have to die to ourselves on a daily basis by making choices that pleases God not the world, the spirit not the flesh.

It is becoming Christlike every day even if in new baby steps. It is the hallmark of being a true Christian!


Denying self means denying own life, because self is the very agent of self centered life- that is why denying self is no less than killing self.
Without self anything, how can a being live a self life?

The Buddhism has the same principle- emptying self to the point of becoming zero, nothing, which is what considered to be the state of highly enlightened.
However, without self anything, how can anyone be happy about self being happy with no self to feel it?

In Christianity, God can become our life, by denying self and receiving His life as mine, so that we still can live without self anything.

Very critical is the self denying business.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Dying To Self (6/14/2008 8:11:53 AM)

quote:

What would you consider to be "blind obedience", SonInMe1?


Legalism. The Law without the heart. Doing good works to be saved. A self righteous arrogance and judgemental heart.

We obey God because we love Him more than our sin. Its not following a list of rules and proclaiming, " I now qualify for salvation." Jesus did not just obey the Father in going to the cross because He knew that met the requirements of being the Messiah. He obeyed the Father because He loved Him. ( That gets a little complicated with the Trinity aspect, but this is my point )

Just as we obey God. We obey God not to follow a list or rights and wrongs in the bible to garner His favor. We obey God because we love Him. We put the Beloved One's ways above our own, by His Holy Spirit in us because the Holy Spirit is in us.

Litmus test christians will fall because their list is more important than God.



URForgiven -> RE: Dying To Self (6/14/2008 10:04:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kingdust

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

And that flesh does not go away, it does not get better, it does not improve. It can only be controlled, and it can only be controlled by the Spirit of Jesus Christ that now indwells us.
Peace


Your view of flesh is most propounding, if not revolutionary.
Because a lot of people think being good is to shape flesh good or being right is to set the flesh up right, they try to 'improve' the flesh, including me.

That is why I am wondering that after more than a decade being a Christian, my flesh is still the same, having the same taste, same excitement, same demand, same value...

Coincidently, my pastor said the same thing, and I wonder how many believers really got hit big time by that statement.

However, that answers for the long struggle I have against my flesh- it is not to be renovated or united with my new born spirit, meaning to fight till death.

Am I getting it right?


The flesh is opposed to the Spirit, they cannot be united. The flesh cannot be redeemed.

"For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want." Gal. 5:17

The flesh is everything we are outside of the control of God. The only answer to the flesh is to be controlled by God. It is not a fight, the battle is over, and Christ has won. We need only surrender to the Victor, and the Victor is Jesus Christ.

“So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.” Gal. 5:16

It is through our dependence upon the Spirit of God within us, who has given us this glorious grace, that we are able to live godly lives...

"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age" Titus 2:11,12

Peace



Liveloved -> RE: Dying To Self (6/14/2008 4:59:37 PM)

quote:

Dying to self, denying self and placing our dependence in Jesus instead of in ourselves goes against everything we are in our flesh. And that flesh does not go away, it does not get better, it does not improve. It can only be controlled, and it can only be controlled by the Spirit of Jesus Christ that now indwells us.

What Gods grace accomplishes in us is the freedom to be who we were created to be...Gods Children. Indwelt by Him, Spiritually alive, and available at all times for Him to do what He desires to do in and through us, to His glory. Dying to self, is the moment by moment placing of ourselves into dependence upon Jesus, offering our bodies to Him as living sacrifices, which is altogether pleasing to Him...this is our spiritual act of worship.


In total agreement here. And as kingdust pointed out, to many, this is a revolutionary thought. And those 'many' are within the Christian world. But this is the only path to our 'true self', the person we were created to be. Thank you, URForgiven, for so clearly elaborating this point.[:)]



drmark -> RE: Dying To Self (6/14/2008 8:00:24 PM)

quote:

And that flesh does not go away, it does not get better, it does not improve. It can only be controlled, and it can only be controlled by the Spirit of Jesus Christ that now indwells us.
There are other Scripturally sound doctrinal concepts which disagree with this pessimistic conclusion. The flesh can be cleansed, purified, changed, and perfected, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. There is a danger in taking the concept of "dying to self" too far in that a superficial relationship of God to man may result in a psychologically unhealthy view of human nature. The NT speaks of presenting our bodies, being filled with the Spirit, living according to the Spirit, and being strengthened with might by the Spirit. The concept of "control" too easily misrepresents our partnership with God as some kind of passive possession of our psyches whereby God destroys our humanness. That's not a spiritually healthy Christian attitude, in my opinion.



Walker311 -> RE: Dying To Self (6/14/2008 8:26:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
We obey God because we love Him more than our sin.


This would better fit the perfect sinless Christian which you do not believe exists so this statement from you, is a contradiction.

We obey Him because IT is required and love has nothing to do with it. I did not obey my parents because I loved them. I obeyed because it was required and they made sure I met that requirement. The consequences of our disobedience to God teaches us.

If indeed your consistent use of this statement "love Him more than our sin" were a reality and a possibility, we would STOP sinning. I know that this is both a reality and possible but regardless, obedience is a requirement. This requirement is for our own good.

However, the bottom line... without love, we cannot please Him even if we never sin again.



drmark -> RE: Dying To Self (6/14/2008 10:11:04 PM)

quote:

We obey God because we love Him more than our sin.
Actually, we obey God because He loves us enough to infill us with His Love so that we no longer want to sin.

quote:

However, the bottom line... without love, we cannot please Him even if we never sin again.
With His Love we never have to sin again. That is what truly pleases the Lord!



pstrdebi -> RE: Dying To Self (6/14/2008 11:48:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

That is a VERY critical process and principle in a believer's life.

Cloak, would you consider "daily dying to self" critical enough to distinguish true Believers from pretend Christians?


"Daily dying to self" is a process that we learn. A young Christian, who is in the beginning stages of learning how to be a "Christ follower" could be mistaken for a "pretender" if this was the rule to follow.

There are folks that have been of the Faith for many years who are still learning the concept of "dying to self"... heck, there are some that have never been taught that concept from the pulpit because the preacher never learned it! Just being truthful.

But I wouldn't say they are pretending. You could lay blame on these folks for not reading it in the scriptures... however, if they are never taught to read the scriptures (as was the case in the church I was raised)...??

Just commenting on the question.
Pastor Debi
[:)]



SonInMe1 -> RE: Dying To Self (6/15/2008 3:22:32 AM)

quote:

We obey Him because IT is required and love has nothing to do with it.


Loving God empowers our obediance. If obediance just was a matter of will power outside of love the Law would have worked and we would not have needed Jesus.

Jesus did not say all the commandments were summed up in...our free will choice to obey God. He said they were all summed up in loving Him and others.

quote:

This would better fit the perfect sinless Christian which you do not believe exists so this statement from you, is a contradiction.


I never said a perfect christian does not exists. I have said sinless christians do not exist. There is a difference.

The only way a Holy Spirit indwellt person can sin is putting their sin before God. Another ay to say that is they love their sin more than God. An idol. When God is first, the sin goes away.

We just tend not to be perfect in that. That is why there are the processes of forgivenss, sanctification and repentence. A perfect christian will apply these principles when they sin. A perfect christian is not sinless.



Liveloved -> RE: Dying To Self (6/15/2008 3:54:40 AM)

quote:

There are other Scripturally sound doctrinal concepts which disagree with this pessimistic conclusion.


I don't see this as a pessimistic conclusion at all. . . and hardly superficial. Christ living in me and living His life through me does not, to my understanding, sound superficial at all. That is the ultimate depth of relationship.

But I do know others see things differently than I.[sm=smile-l.gif]



RJR_fan -> RE: Dying To Self (6/15/2008 8:55:59 AM)

quote:


The secret to the kingdom of God is to die to self and it often takes a lifetime of living to finally grasp the significance of "for me to live is Christ... to die is gain".


A characteristic of autistic spectrum disorders is a preference for the immediate. To step out of the moment, consider the eternal big picture, and then to operate in terms of that big picture, instead of the alluring distractions of the moment, requires supernatural grace.

These thoughts crossed my mind this morning, while reading John 12:21 etc. It's entirely too easy, at least for me, to "zone out," and lose myself in trivia. Laziness is the one sin that can never be satiated. But we have victory in Jesus, Hallelujah!



drmark -> RE: Dying To Self (6/15/2008 9:14:01 AM)

quote:

I don't see this as a pessimistic conclusion at all.
The statement that "flesh does not go away, it does not get better, it does not improve" is most pessimistic. That's what I was addressing with regards to the alternate doctrine of the Holy Spirit cleansing, purifying, and perfecting the carnal nature.

quote:

and hardly superficial.
The statement that "flesh can only be controlled" shows a superficial relation of Believer to God. We are not little robots designed to be suppressed or forced into submission by the Holy Spirit. Rather, the Holy Spirit can infill, empower, and indwell us to impart His righteousness for holy living so that we can truly die to self-will as we love the Lord and others with all our heart every day.

I hope that clarifies it for you, Liveloved.



URForgiven -> RE: Dying To Self (6/15/2008 10:08:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

I don't see this as a pessimistic conclusion at all.
The statement that "flesh does not go away, it does not get better, it does not improve" is most pessimistic. That's what I was addressing with regards to the alternate doctrine of the Holy Spirit cleansing, purifying, and perfecting the carnal nature.


There are no "alternate doctrines". There is only truth. To not grasp that the flesh does not improve is to cling to the hope that this is all somehow about us, it is not. It is about Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ did not come to clean up our flesh...He came to kill it.

quote:

]The statement that "flesh can only be controlled" shows a superficial relation of Believer to God. We are not little robots designed to be suppressed or forced into submission by the Holy Spirit. Rather, the Holy Spirit can infill, empower, and indwell us to impart His righteousness for holy living so that we can truly die to self-will as we love the Lord and others with all our heart every day.



A robot does not have a choice. But if it did, the logical thing for it to do would be to choose to allow itself to be used as a robot. Because then it would be fulfilling the purpose for which it had been made. Otherwise, it is not being a robot but a perversion of what it was created for, and it is only fit for the scrap metal pile.

Peace



kingdust -> RE: Dying To Self (6/15/2008 11:28:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

The statement that "flesh does not go away, it does not get better, it does not improve" is most pessimistic. That's what I was addressing with regards to the alternate doctrine of the Holy Spirit cleansing, purifying, and perfecting the carnal nature.


It sure sounds like no Gospel to a living being who has only self to rely on, self value to peruse, self will and desire to hang on to, the most honorable and valuable elements of self life.
The Bible is full of such pessimistic clauses.

Being slapped on the right and offering other side to be slapped is no less pessimistic than being stuck with flesh that gives no hope to get better- who is to love being slapped left and right?
The sinful nature cannot be changed like a leopard cannot change its spots, like Jeremiah said.
You slap on my face and see what my reaction would be, me who is a long time Christian?

If it can be changed, why do we have to be born again?
Why don't we renovate our good old self and make it like new?
I sure like it that way because I still can keep my good old self, without having another nature warring against my self.

Who is to love to kill self?
But, without weeding out the good old value of self, the new born spirit can be choked to death.



Butterflytearz -> RE: Dying To Self (6/15/2008 12:34:59 PM)

The apostle Stephen gave us an example of what it truly means to die to self. I would rather say die to the flesh and live in the spirit.

ACTS 7
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did , so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it .
54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him : and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God , and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell aslee

Are we willing to take up our crosses and follow Him though we live in a sinful world, in which the flesh suffers much, still believing Jesus and loving God with all our strength , heart, and mind as well as loving our neighbours as ourself ?

We know that Jesus is the way the truth and the life, the flesh profits nothing.

†††



rcjames -> RE: Dying To Self (6/15/2008 4:17:50 PM)

Dying to self is bought and paid for by the Sacrifice of Christ and issued to us by the Grace of God, and misistered to us by the Holy Spirit;

And the ability to do such is promised in the Word of God;


(1Co 10:13) There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

So every Believer has the witherall to die to self, as it is a promise from God to all believers.

If someone says the cannot die to self; then they are most likely not true Believers.

Thanks
RC



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