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RE: Dying To Self - 6/24/2008 11:16:19 AM
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Liveloved
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quote:
When you can see your own brother prosper
and have his needs met,
and can honestly rejoice with him in spirit
and feel no envy nor question God,
while your own needs are far greater and in desperate circumstances. . .
that is dying to self.
Thanks, kingdust, for sharing an experience from your life. What you shared is a perfect illustration of our imperfection (?) .
I am in the midst of the above situation right now. We left our church three years ago. It was very much our beloved family. My husband was in leadership there but he led us out of the church because of the pastor.
We had a little home fellowship for two and a half years and that was wonderful but it requires a level of commitment that few have. So when that ended, we started attending another church where a retired M&A pastor teaches the adult SS class (and he has been a dear friend for many years).
But lately I am aware of my yearning for family fellowship---the kind we shared at our old church. And I find myself getting angry and kind of resentful that we no longer have that.
I know that our leaving was a most wonderful thing. It was a part of what God used to get me to the place where I live loved. He wanted me to know that He loved me regardless of what others said or did. And I wouldn't trade that for anything. But the evil that was done by the 'pastor' resulted in our no longer being a part of the family---and now he shares what we had.
Oh, I know I am making myself vulnerable here. But I am being honest. I don't want to have a root of bitterness. I pray for this man nearly daily. He is blind to his prideful, self loving ways.
But watching him prosper in the place we were in and while we go without that kind of fellowship is very hard. (We have fellowship with believers---just not the Sunday kind of fellowship we did enjoy.) But it is a part of the dying that is going on in me. My flesh does not like it at all. All the more reason to know Who is doing what!
Anyway, that's my story. . . or some of it. 
< Message edited by Liveloved -- 6/24/2008 11:23:15 AM >
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RE: Dying To Self - 6/24/2008 12:00:15 PM
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URForgiven
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The Loneliness of the Christian
by A. W. Tozer
The loneliness of the Christian results from his walk with God in an ungodly world, a walk that must often take him away from the fellowship of good Christians as well as from that of the unregenerate world. His God-given instincts cry out for companionship with others of his kind, others who can understand his longings, his aspirations, his absorption in the love of Christ; and because within his circle of friends there are so few who share his inner experiences he is forced to walk alone.
The unsatisfied longings of the prophets for human understanding caused them to cry out in their complaint, and even our Lord Himself suffered in the same way.
The man [or woman] who has passed on into the divine Presence in actual inner experience will not find many who understand him. He finds few who care to talk about that which is the supreme object of his interest, so he is often silent and preoccupied in the midst of noisy religious shoptalk. For this he earns the reputation of being dull and over-serious, so he is avoided and the gulf between him and society widens.
He searches for friends upon whose garments he can detect the smell of myrrh and aloes and cassia out of the ivory palaces, and finding few or none he, like Mary of old, keeps these things in his heart.
It is this very loneliness that throws him back upon God. His inability to find human companionship drives him to seek in God what he can find nowhere else."
From Man - The Dwelling Place of God, Chapter 39: "The Saint Must Walk Alone"
Sorry for the lengthy quote, but I thought it most pertinent to the discussion. Mr. Tozer expresses perfectly what my own and many others walk is like. Not that it is always and at all times so, but that it is much if the time so. I take comfort in knowing that I have an eternity to spend with Jesus and all those who will be of One mind.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Dying To Self - 6/24/2008 3:22:57 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
It is this very loneliness that throws him back upon God. His inability to find human companionship drives him to seek in God what he can find nowhere else."
From Man - The Dwelling Place of God, Chapter 39: "The Saint Must Walk Alone"
Sorry for the lengthy quote, but I thought it most pertinent to the discussion. Mr. Tozer expresses perfectly what my own and many others walk is like. Not that it is always and at all times so, but that it is much if the time so. I take comfort in knowing that I have an eternity to spend with Jesus and all those who will be of One mind.
Thank you for reminding me of this, URForgiven. I have every published Tozer book and read them many years ago---and the saint walks alone has stuck with me. But being reminded is very needful at times.
Being misunderstood is one of the greatest sources of crucifixion for myself. Men judge others by what is in their heart hence misjudgment occurs often.
But the Lord was encouraging me this morning as well. Unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. Someone had to die. But only death brings life.
So we say bring on death, Lord.
< Message edited by Liveloved -- 6/24/2008 3:29:48 PM >
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RE: Dying To Self - 6/25/2008 4:01:39 AM
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Liveloved
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and the last section:
When you receive correction and reproof from one
of less stature than yourself and can humbly submit inwardly
as well as outwardly,
finding no rebellion rising within your heart. . .
that is dying to self.
Are you dead yet?
I see this one as particularly telling. I see us, as a society, refusing to submit to any authority more and more. So there is much less willingness to receive correction and reproof from others.
This is one I do try to practice. I believe it was Tozer who advised that when someone came to him with a word such as this, he always graciously received it, took it to the Lord, and asked Him to show him the truth in it. I have tried to do the same. And you?
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RE: Dying To Self - 6/25/2008 8:33:12 AM
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kingdust
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
and the last section:
When you receive correction and reproof from one
of less stature than yourself and can humbly submit inwardly
as well as outwardly,
finding no rebellion rising within your heart. . .
that is dying to self.
Are you dead yet?
I see this one as particularly telling. I see us, as a society, refusing to submit to any authority more and more. So there is much less willingness to receive correction and reproof from others.
This is one I do try to practice. I believe it was Tozer who advised that when someone came to him with a word such as this, he always graciously received it, took it to the Lord, and asked Him to show him the truth in it. I have tried to do the same. And you?
It is near impossible thing to do when I think, believe, and declared that I am right.
_____________________________
I am an English as Second Language person and love corrections, kind or unkind, positive or negative, with love or without love, which I am grateful of. Just GIVE!
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RE: Dying To Self - 6/25/2008 9:23:33 AM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kingdust
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
and the last section:
When you receive correction and reproof from one
of less stature than yourself and can humbly submit inwardly
as well as outwardly,
finding no rebellion rising within your heart. . .
that is dying to self.
Are you dead yet?
I see this one as particularly telling. I see us, as a society, refusing to submit to any authority more and more. So there is much less willingness to receive correction and reproof from others.
This is one I do try to practice. I believe it was Tozer who advised that when someone came to him with a word such as this, he always graciously received it, took it to the Lord, and asked Him to show him the truth in it. I have tried to do the same. And you?
It is near impossible thing to do when I think, believe, and declared that I am right.
Yes.
Christianity is not a competition. It is not about being right or wrong...it is about the truth.
If we are genuinely wanting the truth, then wouldn't we not only welcome rebuke and correction, but actually be desiring and seeking it? Isn't it the truth that causes us to die to ourselves, which in turn sets us free?
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Dying To Self - 6/25/2008 11:11:32 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1300
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quote:
Yes.
Christianity is not a competition. It is not about being right or wrong...it is about the truth.
If we are genuinely wanting the truth, then wouldn't we not only welcome rebuke and correction, but actually be desiring and seeking it? Isn't it the truth that causes us to die to ourselves, which in turn sets us free?
You have spoken some very definitive words, URForgiven. This is one of the reasons I think few are walking in the light. Few desire this kind of truth. And that very lack shows the love of darkness. They do not want their evil exposed. We can be adept at using God's word to shield and protect our fragile little selves from the truth/Truth.
Anyway, I have actually prayed at times for the Lord to SHOW me things about myself that I needed to see through words of correction and reproof. My phone rang! Two different people came to me with 'stuff' I needed to deal with. Was it is? NO. Is it easy? I hope it's easier today than 20 years ago. But whatever pride is left rises its ugly little head. And like the dog that it is, I have to see it and say 'down'.
If we practice I Cor 13 love, we will believe the best of others and put the best construction on all they say and do. Then we can receive their words as words of love from Christ and for our good. Yes, that is what I want to do. How I want to live.
It is not easy to die. But death is necessary for us to live and to live in the freedom that He desires for us. Hallelujah! Bless ya! 
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RE: Dying To Self - 6/25/2008 11:26:51 AM
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Liveloved
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quote:
I'm struggling with this. I have some issues with a few other believers who are family members and I don't know how to approach them or if I even should. I don't understand how some can stop attending church, tell coarse joke and not see how they are setting a bad example for me and m children. I know that we are not to put others on pedestals, but when they are supposedly "christians" and elders who are suppose to be more mature or at least gave you that impression, how do you act in front of them? How do you die to self when you want to scream at some of these? It's hard, very very hard. Is this righteous anger? Do I love them so much that I want them to live right? or am I jealous that they seem to be able to live the way they want and not care about being obedient to God?
You're right, Deb, it's very, very hard. I hope you do love them that much. So pray for them. It's not about living right. Oh, many are confused about this and preach and teach this. But this is not what it is about at all. Living right is about being a good Pharisee. You do not want that for them. You want them to BE right. And that means they need to walk in the light, come to the light, be in a vital relationship with Jesus. Most who call themselves by His name aren't.
Pray for them. And model what it is to walk in the light for them. That is what our teachers and pastors need to be doing. Be truthful about yourself and your relationship with Jesus and your love for Him and desire to please Him. . . and your failure to live as He wants you to. Be willing to be specific and share with them. For example, if you are with them and you sin, confess it openly and let them see what a repentant one who is in the light does! Then and ONLY then will they see that your deeds manifested as having been wrought in God! (Read John 3:19-21 for further understanding of this.)
And, Deb, you might be interested in reading Roy Hession's, The Calvary Road. This is a classic book and he deals with the very question you are raising. . . and his ways of explaining and bringing to understanding are so much better than mine. Anyway, thanks for asking and I hope this helps.
P.S. IMO, most 'righteous anger' is borne of our flesh and carnal. It's the path the Pharisees walked because they held themselves above and apart from others. Jesus bowed to our weakness in love.
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RE: Dying To Self - 6/25/2008 11:40:35 AM
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pstrdebi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
He's taught me that men will say all manner of evil about me and misunderstand me but it is only what He says that matters. And He loves me.
That's funny... I just said this to my husband yesterday. The enemy will use these people to try and knock us down; make us think that God isn't with us, etc. If some of these folks knew that they were being used of the enemy as mere puppets... It may change their manner of thinking... huh?
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Dying To Self - 6/25/2008 1:08:19 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1300
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quote:
That's funny... I just said this to my husband yesterday. The enemy will use these people to try and knock us down; make us think that God isn't with us, etc. If some of these folks knew that they were being used of the enemy as mere puppets... It may change their manner of thinking... huh?
This is a very hard place to walk. I want to be open to truth, including and especially the truth about me. Jesus said, "Truly, truly , I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me." (John 13:20) So I want to receive ALL the Lord desires for me, and that includes correction, reproof and other things that offend my flesh.
But certainly spiritual warfare is very much about the enemy using people to accomplish his goals. That's why we need to walk very closely with the Lord, die to ourselves, and only then can we discern who/Who is doing what and respond rightly.
And regarding their changing their thinking, that is why we need ears that HEAR. The Spirit is speaking. I want to have my listening ears on and my heart ready to receive and act.
Good thoughts, debi! Yes, the Lord often brings confirming words to us. That's how wonderful He is. Glad you heard Him and were encouraged. LL
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RE: Dying To Self - 6/25/2008 5:13:31 PM
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SonInMe1
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To know you are right, the other person is wrong, and to remain silent because to say something would not be edifying or constructive.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Dying To Self - 6/26/2008 1:42:19 AM
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Liveloved
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quote:
To know you are right, the other person is wrong, and to remain silent because to say something would not be edifying or constructive.
And then to take the blame for the 'wrongness'. 
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RE: Dying To Self - 6/26/2008 9:02:31 AM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
It is not easy to die. But death is necessary for us to live and to live in the freedom that He desires for us. Hallelujah! Bless ya!
Giving up our independence, our self sufficiency, in favor of Christ's sufficiency, is contrary to the flesh. But, it is true repentance. It is hard to give up, concede, surrender, submit. I think it is especially hard for Americans, because we pride ourselves so much on our ability to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and 'get r done'.
Even though we know He is good and has only our best interest at heart, still we want to cling to our independence. But, as we grow in grace, we learn that God is true, and that He is faithful to His Word, and His promises.
Each new area of our lives that we turn over to Him, is an area we are dying to, and it is an area in which we now can rest. His sufficiency is more than able. There is a rest for us, and when we enter into that rest, then it is easy.
But, oh my, how the flesh drags its feet kicking and screaming the whole way!
Bless you too, LiveLoved.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Dying To Self - 6/26/2008 9:17:54 AM
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drmark
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quote:
But, oh my, how the flesh drags its feet kicking and screaming the whole way! Not if the flesh is crucified! Galatians 5:24
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Dying To Self - 6/26/2008 9:50:24 AM
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Bridgitt
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For me, dying to self is to let Him work His will and His plans in me and through me. It is to let God live through me by obeying His Word. It is to seek first His kingdom daily. It is to focus on Jesus in every situation I find myself in. I, of course, cannot do that by myself. I need Him to be the pilot of my life. For that I need to get closer to Him, to know Him, to have a deep relationship with Him. That is why we need to let Him renew our mind in order to be of one accord with Him.
Dying to self = it's all about Him
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RE: Dying To Self - 6/26/2008 9:52:51 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1300
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quote:
Each new area of our lives that we turn over to Him, is an area we are dying to, and it is an area in which we now can rest. His sufficiency is more than able. There is a rest for us, and when we enter into that rest, then it is easy.
What beautiful thoughts/truths you share, URForgiven. Thank you.
When I visited an old cemetary a few years ago, on a family member's grave was Hebrews 4:9, There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God. I did not know this family member but hoped that this verse meant they knew the rest He desires for us.
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RE: Dying To Self - 6/26/2008 8:30:35 PM
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SonInMe1
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Philippians 1:21-26
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, 26 so that through my being with you again your joy in Christ Jesus will overflow on account of me.
It really is about other people
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Dying To Self - 6/27/2008 12:21:14 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1300
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quote:
When you receive correction and reproof from one
of less stature than yourself and can humbly submit inwardly
as well as outwardly,
finding no rebellion rising within your heart. . .
that is dying to self.
This is an area where offense is often taken. When you go to someone with a word of correction or reproof and they are unwilling to receive it, they often take offense, form a judgment (about/against you) and then all you say and do (in the future) is seen through the filter of their judgment. I have watched this happen over and over again. And the individual does not even know/is not aware of what has taken place and what they are doing. They are oblivious of the offense. They think they are judging rightly.
This is why taking offense is so detrimental to our lives. It causes US to stumble. And then can lead to the stumbling of others.
I do so want to be willing to receive correction and reproof from others and hear what the Lord is saying to me through them. Nor do I want to take offense and respond to others from a place of wounded pride.
When we receive correction or reproof, the Lord is giving us a chance to die. And the choice is ours.
< Message edited by Liveloved -- 6/27/2008 12:28:23 PM >
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RE: Dying To Self - 6/27/2008 2:10:40 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 707
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
When you receive correction and reproof from one
of less stature than yourself and can humbly submit inwardly
as well as outwardly,
finding no rebellion rising within your heart. . .
that is dying to self.
This is an area where offense is often taken. When you go to someone with a word of correction or reproof and they are unwilling to receive it, they often take offense, form a judgment (about/against you) and then all you say and do (in the future) is seen through the filter of their judgment. I have watched this happen over and over again. And the individual does not even know/is not aware of what has taken place and what they are doing. They are oblivious of the offense. They think they are judging rightly.
This is why taking offense is so detrimental to our lives. It causes US to stumble. And then can lead to the stumbling of others.
This is so true. I think one reason this occurs is because we who are doing the correcting and/or rebuking, have not earned the respect of the person. Respect does have to be earned, and it takes time, sometimes a lot of time. If we are truly a friend to people, if we honor their trust in us and if we share who we truly are with them...then they will be much more open to hearing what is being said. That doesn't mean they will agree with it, but they will listen. This goes both ways I might add.
quote:
I do so want to be willing to receive correction and reproof from others and hear what the Lord is saying to me through them. Nor do I want to take offense and respond to others from a place of wounded pride.
And that is the difference. You are asking for it, you are willing. If someone is not asking for help, they probably will not accept it. At least, that has been my experience. We do more harm than good sometimes, when we speak with our mouths rather than love with our actions.
That's all I got...
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Dying To Self - 6/28/2008 12:46:25 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1300
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quote:
This is so true. I think one reason this occurs is because we who are doing the correcting and/or rebuking, have not earned the respect of the person. Respect does have to be earned, and it takes time, sometimes a lot of time. If we are truly a friend to people, if we honor their trust in us and if we share who we truly are with them...then they will be much more open to hearing what is being said. That doesn't mean they will agree with it, but they will listen. This goes both ways I might add.
While I want to agree with what you have said (and I've probably said the same myself re:respect), I do wonder if it does happen? I mean, isn't it a question of spiritual maturity or at least the desire to mature (and having that as a goal means you see your own need to grow) and I see so little of that today. Anyway, if it takes time in relationship for this to develop, you should see this taking place---this kind of correcting, rebuking, etc with satisfactory outcomes. I think it takes something more---maturity, desire to grow, willingness to be honest, truthful with yourself and others, humility, all of the aforementioned???
Anyway, do you have any further thoughts?
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RE: Dying To Self - 6/28/2008 10:36:05 AM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
This is so true. I think one reason this occurs is because we who are doing the correcting and/or rebuking, have not earned the respect of the person. Respect does have to be earned, and it takes time, sometimes a lot of time. If we are truly a friend to people, if we honor their trust in us and if we share who we truly are with them...then they will be much more open to hearing what is being said. That doesn't mean they will agree with it, but they will listen. This goes both ways I might add.
While I want to agree with what you have said (and I've probably said the same myself re:respect), I do wonder if it does happen? I mean, isn't it a question of spiritual maturity or at least the desire to mature (and having that as a goal means you see your own need to grow) and I see so little of that today. Anyway, if it takes time in relationship for this to develop, you should see this taking place---this kind of correcting, rebuking, etc with satisfactory outcomes. I think it takes something more---maturity, desire to grow, willingness to be honest, truthful with yourself and others, humility, all of the aforementioned???
Anyway, do you have any further thoughts?
Well, you are on both sides of the thing at the same time, which is where we all are, but we need to separate it to discuss it. One side is the one needing the correction, the other side is the one doing the correcting.
My statement was addressed to those doing the correction. Behind that thought is the danger of alienating others through a sense of betrayal, because of their discovery of an ulterior motive behind our friendship, our fellowship....behind our love. There is that danger because there IS an ulterior motive. My deepest desire is that others experience the freedom that comes through the truth. So that is always and at all times right there in my thinking, I cannot make that go away, nor should I.
We have a fine line to walk, between being genuine in our friendship and our love for them, and being genuine in our friendship and love of the Truth. I have an ulterior motive in life and that is to share Jesus Christ and His truth. That is not a devious motive, but it is there. But if I do that in a way that alienates others, then I have hindered and not helped.
So...we need to be genuine. We need to be who we are as Children of God. We need to be depending upon Christ, who leads us through His indwelling Spirit. Always being open to the opportunity He creates, and then being ready with an answer for the hope we have.
Just my thoughts this morning, not inerrent Scripture, and certainly not a complete thought. 
Heading for the coffee pot...
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Dying To Self - 6/28/2008 4:34:31 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
Heading for the coffee pot...
Another thing we have in common. . .  Thanks for the thoughts. I'll ponder them . . .
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Is this righteous anger? Do I love them so much that I want them to live right? or am I jealous that they seem to be able to live the way they want and not care about being obedient to God?
