When the day of Pentecost was fully come ... (Full Version)

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maran-atha -> When the day of Pentecost was fully come ... (6/10/2008 12:26:27 PM)

Thankfully, the apostles had no problems understanding when to gather on that eventful first Pentecost of the Christian era. 'They were all with one accord in one place' (Acts2:1). Not so, today!

Pentecost is special to both Jews and Christians, but celebrated at different times of the year:

This day was celebrated this year on 11th May by Anglicans, Lutherans, Roman Catholics, Methodists and Presbyterians - along with many other denominations and evangelical churches. The date was calculated according to the Gregorian Calendar, counting fifty days from 'Easter Sunday' - held this year on 23rd March.

In 2008, Pentecost falls on the 15th June for the Russian, Coptic, Greek and other Orthodox churches. They base their method of counting similarly, but use a modified form of the old Julian Calendar.

From 9-10th June, 2008, Orthodox Jews celebrated Shavuot (meaning 'weeks') - their day for 'Pentecost'. They count fifty days from the day after the 15th of the first month of the Jewish sacred calendar - the Feast of the Passover (a Jewish feast-day sabbath). Consequently, it can fall on any day of the week.

On 15th June, 2008, Karaite Jews celebrate their Shavuot - Day of Pentecost. Unlike orthodox Jews, they count from the Sunday following Passover - like the Christians (the day after the Jewish weekly sabbath, Lev.23:15), but base the date for Passover according to the Jewish Calendar as determined from Jerusalem. This branch of Judaism is very ancient and once had large numbers of adherents, although today they are few in number. Nevertheless, they do not follow the traditions and rely solely on the Tanakh (OT) for their practice.

Although as Christians, we honour the event and not the day when it comes to our celebration, the Karaite method of calculation is firmly based on the Scriptures and is worth considering.

Unlike, the orthodox rabbinical method, Pentecost is always on the first day of the week for Karaite Jews - a Sunday, just as it was on the first Pentecost of the Christian era.

15th June, 2008. - A day to remember?

Further reading:

Ref: karaite/shavuot
On the quartodeciman controversy (date for Easter):
Bib. Rev., Ch 4 - Do this in remembrance of Me



DaveW -> RE: When the day of Pentecost was fully come ... (6/10/2008 1:24:15 PM)

Many of us Messianics follow the Karaite calculation.



rcjames -> RE: When the day of Pentecost was fully come ... (6/10/2008 2:34:03 PM)

I don't find Scripture to give notice as to when the Holy Ghost would come, only that they were to wait for Him.

(Act 1:7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

(Act 1:8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Now the Holy Ghost did come on Pentecost, and that is an improtant date to remember, but if the Holy Ghost had not come on Pentecost, then I fully believe the 120 would have been buddled together praying and in one accord until He did. When ever that would have been.

Thanks
RC



upNORTder -> RE: When the day of Pentecost was fully come ... (6/10/2008 8:41:03 PM)

Good point, RC, the Holy Spirit came unanounced on Pentecost, just like Christ will return on the rapture.



maran-atha -> RE: When the day of Pentecost was fully come ... (6/11/2008 8:33:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

Many of us Messianics follow the Karaite calculation.


It was mainly as a result of anti-Jewish sentiment that official 'Christianity' decided on a different calendar. We should remember our Jewish roots!

Have a blessed Pentecost!



maran-atha -> RE: When the day of Pentecost was fully come ... (6/11/2008 9:30:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

I don't find Scripture to give notice as to when the Holy Ghost would come, only that they were to wait for Him.

(Act 1:7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

(Act 1:8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Now the Holy Ghost did come on Pentecost, and that is an improtant date to remember, but if the Holy Ghost had not come on Pentecost, then I fully believe the 120 would have been buddled together praying and in one accord until He did. When ever that would have been.

Thanks
RC


No, you are right, the disciples were not told that the power of the Holy Spirit would come upon them at Pentecost. Nevertheless, imagine yourself as a disciple at that time - knowing what had previously occurred.

On the day of the Passover - the Passover Lamb of God was killed. On the day for offering the omer (the wave sheaf of the firstfruits) - Jesus, 'the firstfruit from the dead' (1 Cor.15:20) was raised up. From this day, the Jews had to count fifty days until the next great day of the calendar. They would have known about the tradition that the teachings of the law had been given on this day - through Moses. There would have been a tremendous air of expectancy that something incredible would happen. We are not told that they knew; but , of course, they would have understood the special importance of being together for this particular holy day of the sacred calendar. The parallels to the Mosaic Pentecost can easily be understood. Significantly, the apostles were instrumental in bringing 3000 souls to Christ on that very day and the law of God became written in the heart of God's people - by the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for your comment.



maran-atha -> RE: When the day of Pentecost was fully come ... (6/11/2008 9:33:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: upNORTder

Good point, RC, the Holy Spirit came unanounced on Pentecost, just like Christ will return on the rapture.


That's a good point, too. Watch, wait, and be ready!



rcjames -> RE: When the day of Pentecost was fully come ... (6/11/2008 10:09:10 AM)

Yea, and I haar all the theories about when Christ will return; on this feast day, or that Jewish holiday, etc. etc.

Pure speculation, Christ said we do not know and can only recognize the season.

I think the season is upon us.

Thsnks
RC



JimboFletch -> RE: When the day of Pentecost was fully come ... (6/11/2008 10:19:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: maran-atha
No, you are right, the disciples were not told that the power of the Holy Spirit would come upon them at Pentecost. Nevertheless, imagine yourself as a disciple at that time - knowing what had previously occurred.

Until the Holy Spirit came upon them on Pentecost, the disciples weren't what I'd call theologians, barely even grasping much about what Jesus had accomplished. Few of them probably made any connection about Passover and Jesus, much less about Pentecost and the Holy Spirit. We have the benefit of 2000 or so years of hindsight and massive amounts of theology to provide understanding not available so soon after Jesus' ministry on earth reached it's ultimate purpose.



maran-atha -> RE: When the day of Pentecost was fully come ... (6/11/2008 7:44:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Yea, and I haar all the theories about when Christ will return; on this feast day, or that Jewish holiday, etc. etc.

Pure speculation, Christ said we do not know and can only recognize the season.

I think the season is upon us.

Thsnks
RC


We are not told when - this is true. But, my post does not speculate about what day Jesus will come again. If you want to open a thread on that topic, I might reply. :)



maran-atha -> RE: When the day of Pentecost was fully come ... (6/11/2008 8:30:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: maran-atha
No, you are right, the disciples were not told that the power of the Holy Spirit would come upon them at Pentecost. Nevertheless, imagine yourself as a disciple at that time - knowing what had previously occurred.

Until the Holy Spirit came upon them on Pentecost, the disciples weren't what I'd call theologians, barely even grasping much about what Jesus had accomplished. Few of them probably made any connection about Passover and Jesus, much less about Pentecost and the Holy Spirit. We have the benefit of 2000 or so years of hindsight and massive amounts of theology to provide understanding not available so soon after Jesus' ministry on earth reached it's ultimate purpose.


Well, they had the best theology teacher of all - Jesus, Himself. Have you not read that He taught them following the resurrection and opened their minds to understand? (Lk.24:27; Lk.24:45). Jesus also imparted the Holy Spirit to the apostles prior to Pentecost (Jn.20:22) - no doubt that their minds would be opened to comprehend all that pertained to Him. He taught them during the forty days before He ascended (Acts 1:3).

Oh, I think they made the connections alright!



rcjames -> RE: When the day of Pentecost was fully come ... (6/12/2008 8:58:00 AM)

I think God chose the day of Pentecost to start the Church for a very practical reason; there would be visitors from all over that part of the world in Jerusalem for the celebration of Pentecost.

Those that Peter preached to that day took the Gospel back home with them and facilitated the spread of that good news.

Thasks
RC



DaveW -> RE: When the day of Shavuot was fully come ... (6/13/2008 6:28:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

I think God chose the day of Pentecost to start the Church for a very practical reason; there would be visitors from all over that part of the world in Jerusalem for the celebration of Pentecost.

While that is true, IMO it is only part of the story. According to Jewish counting and legend, Shavuot (gr: pentecost) was the day God came down on Mt Sinai and spoke the 10 commandments and then had Moses come up the mountain to give him the Torah. He came down on the mountain with fire and smoke and a trumpet blast that was heard far and wide and spoke the Decalog in 70 languages because of the "mixed multitude" that came out of Egypt with the Israelites.

If it was ONLY because of the Jews from everywhere being there and nothing to do with the feast day itself, why duplicate all the symbolism?

*Fire.
*On a mountain. WHile we all have been taught this happened in the upper room, that is not stated in the text. Indeed the only place in the crowded city that many people could have gathered to hear Peter is the temple mount. (which had about 1500 mikvah pools nicely handling the 3000 who were baptized)
*Noised abroad.
*Many languages so the hearers could all hear in their own native language.
quote:

Those that Peter preached to that day took the Gospel back home with them and facilitated the spread of that good news.
Again, this is true. But IMO it is only part of the truth. On Shavuot HE gives his Word. Centuries later ON THE SAME DAY, HE gives the power to obey Him. I believe the linkage was intentional.



maran-atha -> RE: When the day of Pentecost was fully come ... (6/13/2008 6:34:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

I think God chose the day of Pentecost to start the Church for a very practical reason; there would be visitors from all over that part of the world in Jerusalem for the celebration of Pentecost.

Those that Peter preached to that day took the Gospel back home with them and facilitated the spread of that good news.

Thasks
RC


God is the Master of timing and surely chose Pentecost not just for the reason you suggest. Yes, the message had an immediate international impact due to the gift of tongues that was imparted - enabling many to hear the Gospel in their own language.

This, I venture to add, was not the same as that experienced by 'Pentecostal' groups today. On that day, the power of the Holy Spirit was given as a witness for others.

When you can't understand the 'tongue', it sounds like gibberish and is of no benefit to the ones not understanding. Even when one claims to be able to interpret for the sake of others - there is doubt. People on that first Pentecost heard, understood and were convinced.

Thanks for your comment. By the way, what does 'Thasks' mean? - you are not speaking in tongues are you? :)



rcjames -> RE: When the day of Pentecost was fully come ... (6/13/2008 9:56:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: maran-atha
Thanks for your comment. By the way, what does 'Thasks' mean? - you are not speaking in tongues are you? :)


I was not speaking in tongues at that particular moment.

I will admit to being keyboard challenged.

Thsnks
RC



DaveW -> RE: When the day of Pentecost was fully come ... (6/13/2008 12:18:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

I was not speaking in tongues at that particular moment.

I will admit to being keyboard challenged.

Thanks
RC
Would that be speaking in fingers??????[:)]



rcjames -> RE: When the day of Pentecost was fully come ... (6/13/2008 3:51:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

I was not speaking in tongues at that particular moment.

I will admit to being keyboard challenged.

Thanks
RC
Would that be speaking in fingers??????[:)]


Good one Dave.
[:)]

Thanks
RC



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