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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/27/2008 2:46:05 AM
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Stephanos
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From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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tracy I bet you think God would never send or let anyone go to Hell either right? Everyone will go to heaven some how, just takes time for them to realize they were wrong, either now or after they die. After all if God is love, how could He condemn anyone to hell?
Oh thats right, the bible tells us that we DESERVE to go to hell because of our sin nature.
Like wise, people who kill others DESERVE to be punished in the same manner they killed their victim.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/27/2008 6:09:10 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1303
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From: Mpls, MN
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quote:
tracy I bet you think God would never send or let anyone go to Hell either right? Everyone will go to heaven some how, just takes time for them to realize they were wrong, either now or after they die. After all if God is love, how could He condemn anyone to hell?
1Jn 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
quote:
Oh thats right, the bible tells us that we DESERVE to go to hell because of our sin nature.
the Bible also tells us that some of us don't go to Hell because He loves us.
quote:
Like wise, people who kill others DESERVE to be punished in the same manner they killed their victim.
Ok, if that's what you think.
_____________________________
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/27/2008 7:34:30 AM
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manda59
Posts: 5369
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From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Like wise, people who kill others DESERVE to be punished in the same manner they killed their victim.
But do we deserve to kill them?
_____________________________
"I think my computer needs a "What Manda just said" button." 1mlasp July 2008
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/30/2008 12:08:03 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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How does the death penalty and "turn the other cheek" square with y'all?
Sure "eye for an eye" is a least SOME form of law and order. But isn't the death penalty nothing more than vengeance?
I find vengeance in cold blood --with reason on its side -- worse than any stupid murder. Isn't a crime that is committed out of a position of power considered aggravated? If a child kills isn't that less terrible than when an adult capable of reason does? Then, isn't it so much worse when 12 reasonable peers gather together and agree amongst themselves through careful rational deliberation that the apparatus of the state should be roused to put down one of it elements who, at one time, it is true, misued their power, but at this later is bound and shackled? In a democracy, the state takes on responsibilities formerly reserved for the individual, because we are all asked to participater AS INDIVIDUALS. And while it was at one time very much reasonable for the state, the ruler, the king, the empire, to kill those who opposed it or failed to abide in its fair or at least expedient rules for an ordered society, today the task to decide falls to each one of us.
If it is you who would like to be the executioner, I invite you to. But that is not the current way of doing things. I do not say it is wrong outright to kill a man in handcuffs, but I appreicate that rhetoric can be just as easily mobilized for or against this practice. I am somewhat undecided as to the matter "in general" even though if it came to referedum, I would cast my vote "no."
Now, however, as an individual, can you project what "turn the other cheek" would mean to you when preparing to set a date for such an execution?
Or is turning the other cheek only possible on behalf of oneself? If indeed not only was one cheek injured but both elimiated from the possibility of further injury through death, what cheek can we then turn? The murderers? Perhaps he or she is sometimes sincerely remorseful and wishes to turn themselves in such a way -- but this is suicide. Or, if one life is taken, perhaps Jesus would suggest, we should put up our own as well? Obviously, this is what He did.
Very confusing stuff.
If it is just to execute a criminal -- I say let it be done! However, I don't know if it is just.
I think there is a difference between the mobilization of reason to determine whether capital punishment is just and the swift or even arbitrary meting out of judge. If one man says that another ought to die, perhaps it is so , perhaps it is not. However, if reason itself is called to the witness stand, a confusing situation for the criminal arises in which they are asked to complicit in their own death. While one would hope a criminal would show remorse, confess and repent, we should not encourage them to take their crimes upon themselves and commit suicide. Jesus, rather, has taken their sins from them. If it is part of earthly justice to remove one from life, so be it, but if we are trying to say as a society that we find no ways to forgive the offender, I think we are being dishonest. That is, it seems to me we are saying, "yes, we can forgive you, as long as you are out of my sight!" This is no forgiveness at all.
If nemesis exists in earthly hands, let it be done. However, if the state would like to use human reason to convince me that this is so, I cannot permit it to pretend that I have been persuaded. If a judge finds that execuction is a fit punishment, this is fine, but don't let him also say we know, therefore, that society has certainly benefited when the murderer has passed from us. This is by no means certain.
< Message edited by hellohellohi -- 6/30/2008 12:39:11 PM >
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/30/2008 12:16:36 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 308
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
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quote:
Like wise, people who kill others DESERVE to be punished in the same manner they killed their victim.
We don't apply that "same manner" standard to almost any other crime. What marks murder apart for this unique standard for punishment? Should thieves merely be stolen from, i.e. fined? Perhaps rapists... well, I'm not even going to finish that one.
quote:
Oh thats right, the bible tells us that we DESERVE to go to hell because of our sin nature.
Divine and human punishment are not at all the same thing. God is without sin. He may throw the first stone, if and when he chooses. But I will not do so.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/30/2008 4:49:09 PM
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contend4christ
Posts: 59
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From: Los angeles
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Like wise, people who kill others DESERVE to be punished in the same manner they killed their victim.
But do we deserve to kill them?
Thought provoking, I pondered this topic and I think one thing becomes clear when God convicts us of our wretchedness. There is none of us worthy to kill them not even the victims. But us and all victims our worthy of death and more for our crimes against a truly innocent and holy God. In truth there is only one good guy and the rest criminals. So I think the death penalty can not be justified by an eye for an eye attitude but possibly the defense or preservation of people or society. If someone is a murderer, the community definitely has the right to defend themselves. But all in all there are so many factors that come in to play, circumstances and such that can make things complex so that man does not truly no how to administer justice when he himself is unjust. Just a thought.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/30/2008 5:02:44 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3113
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
Since this one seems to use the same wording for both acts of killing, it wouldn't appear to support your point all that well.
Given the biblical theme of justice it would appear you are mistaken...
John
Thanks John.
This just reveals our "world view" on things.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/2/2008 9:49:34 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3447
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
How does the death penalty and "turn the other cheek" square with y'all?
Sure "eye for an eye" is a least SOME form of law and order. But isn't the death penalty nothing more than vengeance?
It can be, but inherently it's not...
quote:
If it is just to execute a criminal -- I say let it be done! However, I don't know if it is just.
The word of God doesn't take issue with criminals justly put to death for their deeds...
quote:
I think there is a difference between the mobilization of reason to determine whether capital punishment is just and the swift or even arbitrary meting out of judge. If one man says that another ought to die, perhaps it is so , perhaps it is not. However, if reason itself is called to the witness stand, a confusing situation for the criminal arises in which they are asked to complicit in their own death. While one would hope a criminal would show remorse, confess and repent, we should not encourage them to take their crimes upon themselves and commit suicide. Jesus, rather, has taken their sins from them. If it is part of earthly justice to remove one from life, so be it, but if we are trying to say as a society that we find no ways to forgive the offender, I think we are being dishonest. That is, it seems to me we are saying, "yes, we can forgive you, as long as you are out of my sight!" This is no forgiveness at all.
Jesus dealt with their sins in regards to the eternal consquence, not the temporal... The theif promised Paradise by Christ wasn't any less guilty than the one who wasn't promised Paradise and rightly stated that he was receiving his just reward for his deeds, death by the hand of the civil government ordained by God for that very purpose...
quote:
If nemesis exists in earthly hands, let it be done. However, if the state would like to use human reason to convince me that this is so, I cannot permit it to pretend that I have been persuaded. If a judge finds that execuction is a fit punishment, this is fine, but don't let him also say we know, therefore, that society has certainly benefited when the murderer has passed from us. This is by no means certain.
A rightoues judgment is always blessing...
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/2/2008 9:52:01 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3447
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: contend4christ
Thought provoking, I pondered this topic and I think one thing becomes clear when God convicts us of our wretchedness. There is none of us worthy to kill them not even the victims. But us and all victims our worthy of death and more for our crimes against a truly innocent and holy God. In truth there is only one good guy and the rest criminals. So I think the death penalty can not be justified by an eye for an eye attitude but possibly the defense or preservation of people or society. If someone is a murderer, the community definitely has the right to defend themselves. But all in all there are so many factors that come in to play, circumstances and such that can make things complex so that man does not truly no how to administer justice when he himself is unjust. Just a thought.
God decreed the death penalty and did so certainly with the foreknowledge that man is not perfect and therefore will make mistakes...
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/3/2008 12:05:58 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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SovIsHe,
I appreciate your remarks.
But what if God commissions the removal of the death penalty through democratic referendum? Is this possible? Is France not a government commissioned by God, which has nonetheless refused the death penalty? Just looking for more details abtou your beliefs concerning God and the polis.
If you agree that democracy is a possible God-commissioned government, then I hope to vote "no" if any referendum is held. But, then again, I don't know for sure. I can definitely say that I appreciate the thinking on the death penatlty that has come out of France though.
On the other hand, teh French legal system is goverened largely by academics -- by reason -- and perhaps ours has more potential of being governed by the heart.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/3/2008 12:52:12 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3113
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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We have to "rightly divide" the Word of truth.
The governments are ordained of God.
But the laws of God always supercede laws
"made by man", not the other way around.
God's laws never change. Man's laws change
at every whim of man.
Watch the news about Vermont.
They are so liberal, but they were talking about
the death penalty today on Fox News.
Probably because this particular case falls under
Federal Jurisdiction for kidnapping.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/3/2008 9:23:25 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 308
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
Status: offline
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quote:
But what if God commissions the removal of the death penalty through democratic referendum? Is this possible? Is France not a government commissioned by God, which has nonetheless refused the death penalty? Just looking for more details abtou your beliefs concerning God and the polis.
Given the situation presently going on in France, they might not be the best example of a stable country without capital punishment. Fortunately, there are a lot of stable, healthy democracies we could use as examples instead.
quote:
Take a look at what is happening in France at this point. Where will they be in the next 5 years?
Still, I'm fairly certain that the present unrest in France has very little to do with the abolition of capital punishment. And I'm willing to bet their murder rate is still significantly lower than America's.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/4/2008 12:58:50 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3359
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I do not know.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/4/2008 5:21:46 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3447
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
SovIsHe,
I appreciate your remarks.
But what if God commissions the removal of the death penalty through democratic referendum? Is this possible? Is France not a government commissioned by God, which has nonetheless refused the death penalty? Just looking for more details abtou your beliefs concerning God and the polis.
If you agree that democracy is a possible God-commissioned government, then I hope to vote "no" if any referendum is held. But, then again, I don't know for sure. I can definitely say that I appreciate the thinking on the death penatlty that has come out of France though.
On the other hand, teh French legal system is goverened largely by academics -- by reason -- and perhaps ours has more potential of being governed by the heart.
The bible says the just punishment for murder is death... God ordained the civil government to be His minister of wrath for those who do evil...
The French or anyone else thinking otherwise must deal with the above...
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/4/2008 6:07:29 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 308
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
Status: offline
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quote:
The bible says the just punishment for murder is death...
We've been going around this a while now. It also seems to say the just punishment for disrespecting one's parents is death. I guess we all have to deal with that one...
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/5/2008 11:58:29 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3447
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
The bible says the just punishment for murder is death...
We've been going around this a while now. It also seems to say the just punishment for disrespecting one's parents is death. I guess we all have to deal with that one...
It mentions murder even outside the list of offences that include not honoring one's parents...
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/5/2008 7:24:49 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 308
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
Status: offline
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quote:
It mentions murder even outside the list of offences that include not honoring one's parents..
If you're talking about the Genesis 9 list, then yes, you're right. But then, the Genesis 9 list includes other commandments which we don't expect the state to enforce, too, like the ban on eating meat with blood still in it.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/5/2008 7:40:58 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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I don't particularly think that a man kills someone he loves. Since I am supposed to love my enemies, I don't believe I ought to kill them.
I don't believe it's right to take bits and pieces of the Bible and apply them to other things. If you use the death penalties assigned in Leviticus to support modern death penalties, shouldn't you transfer the whole of the Levitical Law as well, instead of just the part which is convenient?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/5/2008 8:14:13 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 530
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I don't particularly think that a man kills someone he loves. Since I am supposed to love my enemies, I don't believe I ought to kill them.
Not to worry, you dont have to do a thing, the state will do it for you. Love your enemies is not the same as "excuse them for their crimes". Also its a personal command, i see nothing in Gods word that binds governments to that, quite the opposite actually.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/5/2008 8:43:03 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3447
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I don't particularly think that a man kills someone he loves. Since I am supposed to love my enemies, I don't believe I ought to kill them.
You must believe David murdered Goliath and that Joshua was a mass murderer of men, women and children...
quote:
I don't believe it's right to take bits and pieces of the Bible and apply them to other things. If you use the death penalties assigned in Leviticus to support modern death penalties, shouldn't you transfer the whole of the Levitical Law as well, instead of just the part which is convenient?
Ok... What is the just punishment for murder? Two scoops of ice cream?
john
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/5/2008 8:51:27 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3447
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
It mentions murder even outside the list of offences that include not honoring one's parents..
If you're talking about the Genesis 9 list, then yes, you're right. But then, the Genesis 9 list includes other commandments which we don't expect the state to enforce, too, like the ban on eating meat with blood still in it.
We should expect one to be able to discern the just punishment for the crime...
Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Exodus 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
Numbers 35:31 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/5/2008 10:24:17 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 308
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
Status: offline
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quote:
I don't particularly think that a man kills someone he loves. Since I am supposed to love my enemies, I don't believe I ought to kill them.
I would agree. Similarly, Paul argues that we should repay our enemy's evil with kindness. I equally find it difficult to think of kindly killing someone.
quote:
Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Yes, that's the one I was referring to. Quoting the verse doesn't answer my question, though. On what basis will you arbitrarily pick and choose which of the laws and penalties in the Old Testament may be legitimately enforced by the state?
quote:
Exodus 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
Numbers 35:31 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.
I could post a list of "surely put to death" laws, too. Your Exodus 21 quote, for example, is followed by the death penalty similarly being prescribed for cursing one's parents (v. 17) and kidnapping (v. 16).
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/6/2008 1:40:07 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3447
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
I would agree. Similarly, Paul argues that we should repay our enemy's evil with kindness. I equally find it difficult to think of kindly killing someone.
Paul isn't speaking to the ordained purpose of the civil government...
quote:
Yes, that's the one I was referring to. Quoting the verse doesn't answer my question, though. On what basis will you arbitrarily pick and choose which of the laws and penalties in the Old Testament may be legitimately enforced by the state?
Ok... What is the just punishment for murder? Two scoops of ice cream?
quote:
I could post a list of "surely put to death" laws, too. Your Exodus 21 quote, for example, is followed by the death penalty similarly being prescribed for cursing one's parents (v. 17) and kidnapping (v. 16).
Ok... What is the just punishment for murder? Two scoops of ice cream?
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/6/2008 2:05:59 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3447
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
Yes, that's the one I was referring to. Quoting the verse doesn't answer my question, though. On what basis will you arbitrarily pick and choose which of the laws and penalties in the Old Testament may be legitimately enforced by the state?
On the basis the bible says the just punishment for murder is death... Something nobody has been able to refute... Do you have anything to say that death isn't the just punishment for murder? Do you have scripture that says the state that God ordained to be HIS minister of wrath for those who do evil cannot put one to death for murder because they don't for someone not honoring their parents?
quote:
I could post a list of "surely put to death" laws, too. Your Exodus 21 quote, for example, is followed by the death penalty similarly being prescribed for cursing one's parents (v. 17) and kidnapping (v. 16).
Your listing doesn't change the fact the just punishment for murder is death...
John
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