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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/6/2008 7:37:57 AM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 305
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From: Ottawa
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quote:
Your listing doesn't change the fact the just punishment for murder is death...
If the state need not enforce your "just punishment" in the one case, I see no reason why it should enforce your "just punishment" in the other.
quote:
Paul isn't speaking to the ordained purpose of the civil government...
I have explained previously why I do not believe wearing the hat of government gives me permission to do something I wouldn't do otherwise. Nor, more importantly, would it change the fact that I personally find loving someone and killing them to be incompatible. Paul provides instructions on how Christians ought to relate to a non-Christian civil government. He does not provide instructions on how Christians might govern in a civil government.
< Message edited by fiat_lux -- 7/6/2008 8:18:42 AM >
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/6/2008 12:41:01 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3836
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
If the state need not enforce your "just punishment" in the one case, I see no reason why it should enforce your "just punishment" in the other.
So in your view what is the just punishment for murder? And what is your basis?
quote:
I have explained previously why I do not believe wearing the hat of government gives me permission to do something I wouldn't do otherwise.
Which amounts to calling what God ordained unjust across the board...
quote:
Nor, more importantly, would it change the fact that I personally find loving someone and killing them to be incompatible.
The bible does't say it is incompatible...
quote:
Paul provides instructions on how Christians ought to relate to a non-Christian civil government. He does not provide instructions on how Christians might govern in a civil government.
The bible would have a Christian act justly in the non-Christian civil government(that God odained)...
If don't believe so please explain how a Christian judge is being ungodly by passing righteous judgement on people who broke the law...
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/6/2008 4:33:35 PM
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1970rodney
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It is easy to make an argument against the death penalty when maybe your life has never been affected by a murderer. It's easy to say drinking in moderation is okay if your life has never been affected by a drunk driver. God put down some rules a few thousand years ago and last time I checked HE doesn't change his mind about those rules.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/6/2008 5:26:54 PM
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BelovedHandMaiden
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
I am for the death penality, but not in its present form.
There should be a 3 or 6 month absolute limit for the death penality to be imposed after sentencing.
The lengthly waits (15 to 25 years) voids the deterrent effect of the penalty.
As it was done in the 1800's was much more effective; publically and quickly.
Thanks
RC
I agree with you on this, RC.
_____________________________
Sign on Church: The Rapture - True separation of church and state.
<--- My beloved Piwacket.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/6/2008 5:26:55 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 305
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quote:
Which amounts to calling what God ordained unjust across the board...
I'm sure you would agree that there are states God has ordained to exist, i.e. permitted or caused to exist, which act unjustly. Romans 13 contains at least two statements - that God ordained all human governments, and that no human governments will punish those who do good - which on the face of it seem demonstrably wrong. Indeed Paul would know this - after all, he was being personally persecuted by a government for doing good. Since I am not prepared to say that the Bible is wrong, I therefore must conclude that there is some other meaning behind this statement, and then to search for that statement.
You and I might also agree, I'm sure, that there are some acts, even evil ones, for which the government should not rightly respond with the death penalty. Yet Romans 13 provides no limitation on the power of government in such cases - it simply says that the government can use the sword. I accept that this option is permitted to governments. I simply disagree that a Christian, in the position of government, should make use of that option. All things are permitted; not all things are beneficial.
quote:
If don't believe so please explain how a Christian judge is being ungodly by passing righteous judgement on people who broke the law...
That Christian must make up his mind as to what is right in his situation, in accordance with his understanding of the will of God, just as I must. And he, like myself, is accountable to God for what he understands to be right. It may be that the judge in question reaches a different conclusion than myself on this matter.
quote:
The bible does't say it is incompatible...
With respect, I'm not sure of a place where it says it is compatible either, except for God. Nevertheless, I suppose that if my Christian love is not great enough to kill the person I love, and yours is, then your love is greater than mine. Personally, I would prefer to preserve the sanctity of life, not to add more death to the world.
quote:
God put down some rules a few thousand years ago and last time I checked HE doesn't change his mind about those rules.
I have not suggested that God has changed his mind nor have I suggested that his opinion on what is right and wrong is different now than it was then. However, we don't expect our state to enforce his rules in most matters, and we also don't expect our state to enforce his rules with the prescribed punishments in most matters.
quote:
I agree with you on this, RC.
The evidence would seem to suggest that, were this method consistently applied, innocent people would from time to time be put to death.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/7/2008 1:35:56 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
I'm sure you would agree that there are states God has ordained to exist, i.e. permitted or caused to exist, which act unjustly. Romans 13 contains at least two statements - that God ordained all human governments, and that no human governments will punish those who do good - which on the face of it seem demonstrably wrong. Indeed Paul would know this - after all, he was being personally persecuted by a government for doing good. Since I am not prepared to say that the Bible is wrong, I therefore must conclude that there is some other meaning behind this statement, and then to search for that statement.
Where does it "state" that no human governments will punish those who do good? That would entail God not having a clue to the fact that both good and evil men will be in the ranks of those who deal with criminals...
The verse speaks to what is expected of the civil government, not what is going to happen, but what should happen...
The bible says if you love Christ you'll keep His commandments... As well it says if you say you are without sin you are a liar... I believe one can sin and still love Christ... As well we are called to be perfect, yet it will not happen...
quote:
You and I might also agree, I'm sure, that there are some acts, even evil ones, for which the government should not rightly respond with the death penalty.
Agreed...
quote:
Yet Romans 13 provides no limitation on the power of government in such cases - it simply says that the government can use the sword. I accept that this option is permitted to governments. I simply disagree that a Christian, in the position of government, should make use of that option. All things are permitted; not all things are beneficial.
Why? What is just is just... You disagree, yet offer nothing to replace what God said is the just punishment...
quote:
That Christian must make up his mind as to what is right in his situation, in accordance with his understanding of the will of God, just as I must. And he, like myself, is accountable to God for what he understands to be right. It may be that the judge in question reaches a different conclusion than myself on this matter.
The bible isn't that vauge... The bible doesn't say the state cannot put those who murder to death because it doesn't put those who don't honor their parents... It doesn't say it's ungodly to justly put folks to death... The thief who was promised Paradise stated that he was justly receiving his due reward... Death by the civil government...
quote:
With respect, I'm not sure of a place where it says it is compatible either, except for God.
Are you willing to say Joshua didn't love those he put to sword in Jericho? It would seem his obedience to God was more important than any call to preserve the sanctity of life... Would you have tried to reason with him to not obey God?
quote:
Nevertheless, I suppose that if my Christian love is not great enough to kill the person I love, and yours is, then your love is greater than mine. Personally, I would prefer to preserve the sanctity of life, not to add more death to the world.
Problem with this view is that it blurs the clear line between murder and one justly having their life taken due to their actions...
quote:
I have not suggested that God has changed his mind nor have I suggested that his opinion on what is right and wrong is different now than it was then. However, we don't expect our state to enforce his rules in most matters, and we also don't expect our state to enforce his rules with the prescribed punishments in most matters.
So what is the just punishment for murder? You seem to avoid this...
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/7/2008 1:54:30 PM
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hellohellohi
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quote:
Ok... What is the just punishment for murder? Two scoops of ice cream?
Yes, exactly!! Did you see my earlier posts? I guess maybe you did.
Yeah, Tim McVeigh was given two pints of Ben and Jerry's mint cookie before being executed! So, did he get his "just desserts" or what! (Couldn't resist.)
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/8/2008 12:38:54 AM
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doublecross
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I am a believer of capital punishment and at the risk of being called a prude, I would say that we should not make light of the death of even the men who justly deserved it.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/8/2008 12:41:54 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doublecross
I am a believer of capital punishment and at the risk of being called a prude, I would say that we should not make light of the death of even the men who justly deserved it.
Amen... The idea alone should clue one to the idea that fear of the Lord is path to wisdom...
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/8/2008 9:49:52 AM
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hellohellohi
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quote:
I am a believer of capital punishment and at the risk of being called a prude, I would say that we should not make light of the death of even the men who justly deserved it.
That's a nice position I think. I think it is rather respectable to believe in the death penalty but to have a reverance for the taking of the life of an apparent sinner.
But I am not a supporter, and I don't know if want to make light of the situation, but it just always strikes me in a neat way to juxtapose the specific and immediate acts of everyday life with a deadline on their ending, as in the McVeigh example.
Call me a cynic, but I also like to laugh about human tragedies in a way! (It thought the Producers was funny, for example.) Thanks for your resposne though, because I am sincere in my appreciation for your perspective and feelings on this matter.
Okay, and since I have "the floor" again, I want to say, I believe in a sense of righteous vengeance. I just don't know if demanding a life for a life is it. I just don't know. I can feel how it might be, in the sense that I feel that there is such a thing as righteous vengeance (God's) but then I don't see rigteousness in the victim's family who says "hang him high!" Not at all. Probably my position is offensive, but that is my honest feelings.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/8/2008 1:12:56 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3152
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quote:
Okay, and since I have "the floor" again, I want to say, I believe in a sense of righteous vengeance. I just don't know if demanding a life for a life is it. I just don't know. I can feel how it might be, in the sense that I feel that there is such a thing as righteous vengeance (God's) but then I don't see rigteousness in the victim's family who says "hang him high!" Not at all. Probably my position is offensive, but that is my honest feelings.
"I believe in righteous vengeance."
God says, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay."
God has ordained the government to spend His wrath on law-breakers.
"I just don't know."
Honesty is always appreciated.
"I can feel how it might be."
This is where the separation comes. Opinions instead of the facts of God's Word.
We have systematically disregarded and discarded God's Law by Man's Laws.
That's why we are in the shape we are in and have been since time began.
To think God changed His Laws is naive at best. When Yeshua returns He will
rule and govern with an "iron rod." To think He will operate under our politically
correct thinking is be unable to "rightly discern."
No nation today operates under the laws of God. We have borrowed from them,
twisted them, and manipulated them to suit our self. But, when judgment comes,
the Laws will be enforced just as they were originally laid down.
I can just see a murderer and liar saying, You can't do that, that's OT stuff.
All liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. Pretty strong language in our view.
Psalms 73 reveals the heart of a song leader under King David. He viewed his
contemporaries and was to the point of back sliding --- that is, until he considered
their end after communing with God in the Temple.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/8/2008 3:41:32 PM
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hellohellohi
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quote:
We have systematically disregarded and discarded God's Law by Man's Laws.
Okay, probably.
But why can't we stone people instead of injecting them with a paralytic agent and placing a shroud over their heads? (However, I also like what Jesus said about throwing rocks.)
I would favor stoning over lethal injection.
This also is a good point:
quote:
No nation today operates under the laws of God. We have borrowed from them,
twisted them, and manipulated them to suit our self. But, when judgment comes,
the Laws will be enforced just as they were originally laid down.
However, till that day, I will take your advice and view human governments and pronouncements with suspicion.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/8/2008 4:08:25 PM
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SinnerSaved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
However, till that day, I will take your advice and view human governments and pronouncements with suspicion.
Romans 13:1-5
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. (NIV)
_____________________________
"No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
John Donne
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/8/2008 11:49:05 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3836
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
But why can't we stone people instead of injecting them with a paralytic agent and placing a shroud over their heads? (However, I also like what Jesus said about throwing rocks.)
Jesus was speaking to people who didn't have justice in mind, but perverted it in order to accuse Him...
quote:
However, till that day, I will take your advice and view human governments and pronouncements with suspicion.
God did command the civil government to wait till He returns...
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/9/2008 12:24:12 AM
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doublecross
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HHH,
quote:
Okay, and since I have "the floor" again, I want to say, I believe in a sense of righteous vengeance. I just don't know if demanding a life for a life is it. I just don't know. I can feel how it might be, in the sense that I feel that there is such a thing as righteous vengeance (God's) but then I don't see rigteousness in the victim's family who says "hang him high!" Not at all. Probably my position is offensive, but that is my honest feelings.
Life for life is righteous vengeance. We may have an imperfect system of government but who does? Note that this task of keeping peace, order and justice is given to civil magistrates and the government. They are not rights given to individuals. Otherwise, everytime someone steals from me I can have the right to cut his hand without going through the judicial process.
So, the love your neighbor command does not fall on the government whose main task is to govern and maintain peace and to exact justice where justice is necessary. The Lord does not command our governments to be forgiving of crimes. In fact the apostles commend them, even with their imperfect systems of government, to do their jobs of punishing evil doers.
Romans 13:2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
You may not see it justice to kill a murderer but the Lord sees justice from an angle that is not easily seen by our eyes. He hears blood spilled crying out for justice. Not forgiveness. It is a noise in God's the needs to be quieted. Even the blood of Abel whose saintly body was killed by Cain, did not keep quiet.
Genesis 4:9 Then the LORD said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?” He said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?” 10 And He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground. 11 So now you are cursed from the earth, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/9/2008 12:31:42 AM
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doublecross
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HHH,
quote:
But why can't we stone people instead of injecting them with a paralytic agent and placing a shroud over their heads? (However, I also like what Jesus said about throwing rocks.)
I also liked what Jesus said but for a different reason. Weren't they trying to test Him? He was being tested of His knowledge of the Law. First if you were to accuse someone of adultery, there needs to be both a man and a woman accused. Second, there must be witnesses. Third he is not a magistrate to make any determination. They went about trying to hang a death on His head and skillfully reversed their arrogance to guilt. Jesus knew the law and He was not about to break it.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/9/2008 3:45:07 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
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quote:
Romans 13:2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
This is a very helpful passage. I appreciate y'all bringing it to my immediate attention.
However, I would like to ask some further questions, some strange ones perhaps.
First of all, there is the question of the Nazis and such. Weren't they an "authority"? I am not trying to be mean or to disagree with scripture. I just want to discuss and understand.
I would reconcile Romans with the Third Reich (etc.) by this: The governments of old were tyrannies. EDIT: And today's pay at least lip service to democracy.
But, you will, say, weren't the Nazis tryants and Hitler a dictator? Yes, but he was also a populist.
I am curious if the rules about obeying government change when we are talking about, well, democracies/ mob-rule.
I am a respecter of monarchies and authorities of this nature. However, I do not like authorities that try to justify their position on anything but the fact of their power (military, inftrastructure, etc.), God, or some Mandate of Heaven (doesn't have to be overtly Christian, it seems). It is true that the theory of the Mandate of Heaven included that governments ought to be overthrown if corrupt, but a new ruler immediately also allowed to take his place. However, democracies and governments that appeal to logic, science, or something other than power, basically, as their right of sovereignty seem to also forfeit the respect expressed by God through Paul.
I have been thinking about this awhile, and I haven't posed it to many Christians, so I would appreciate your thoughts.
< Message edited by hellohellohi -- 7/9/2008 4:47:43 PM >
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/9/2008 3:46:10 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
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From: North Carolina!
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doublecross,
Yes, I will have to go back an read the context of that passage. It seems that your interpretation or understanding, rather, is more accurate.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/9/2008 4:32:23 PM
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SinnerSaved
Posts: 297
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From: Belfast, N. Ireland
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
First of all, there is the question of the Nazis and such. Weren't they an "authority"? I am not trying to be mean or to disagree with scripture. I just want to discuss and understand.
I would reconcile Romans with the Third Reich (etc.) by this: The governments of old were tyrannies.
But, you will, say, weren't the Nazis tryants and Hitler a dictator? Yes, but he was also a populist.
I am curious if the rules about obeying government change when we are talking about, well, democracies/ mob-rule.
God's word does not change depending on the type of government. Romans 13:2-5 was written when Nero was in power and mercilessly persecuted Christians this did not prevent Paul from writing the passage.
We are told we are subject to the governing authorities. Jesus also told Pilate 'Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above'
We do not know why God gives power to tyrants (Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, Nero, Hitler etc) but He is very much in control.
We should not, however, compromise ourselves when God's word and government laws conflict. We must put God's word first. Daniel should be an example to us.
_____________________________
"No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
John Donne
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/9/2008 4:43:13 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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SinnerSaved,
I very much agree that we should respect tyrannical governments. On the contrary, I was suggesting that we should be wary of rule by mob.
Basically, I agree that Paul's passage extends to all governments at all times: except those governments that cede authority themselves, implicity, by seeming to doubt the inherent right of the powerful to rule over the less so. This, of course, is heresy in America, but hear me out. If a person in power is given to doubt the justification of his power and authority, he will soon seek to please the crowd who is no doubt likely to recognize his unfitness to rule. This could be understood as a tyranny of the weak -- not to say physically -- but in the sense of the "crowd-pleasers." I believe Nazi Germany was rule by mob. I think this is a fair reading of Paul, and an important distinction to make. I also agree that, tyrannical as he was, Nero had every right to execute Christians who were threatening aspects of the order. Christians, of course, are sometimes called to a duty to die at the hands of authorities -- e.g.: Jesus!! There is nothing unjust about this -- certainly not in the terms of God.
However, I am also partly aware that "tyrannical" originally had a connotation of "rule by mob" -- does anyone know the etymology? Have to look that one up.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/9/2008 4:50:22 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
However, I am also partly aware that "tyrannical" originally had a connotation of "rule by mob" -- does anyone know the etymology? Have to look that one up.
According to Dictionary.Com:
"In the exact sense, a tyrant is an individual who arrogates to himself the royal authority without having a right to it. This is how the Greeks understood the word 'tyrant': they applied it indifferently to good and bad princes whose authority was not legitimate." [Rousseau, "The Social Contract"]
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/9/2008 4:54:48 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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Good enough. So, like the Greeks, do you think Paul would make a distinction between the legitimate and the illegitimate?
Hopefully, without putting words in the Apostle's mouth, I would say that governments that seem to doubt their own power or self-justification, as it were, and seek justification elsewhere than in circular statements along the lines of "power grants authority" such as in an appeal to reason are "slipping" in power; we ought not respond to their plea for artificial power by persuasion. Power and the awe of authority should be sufficient to rule in itself -- seems to me to make sense.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/9/2008 4:59:56 PM
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SinnerSaved
Posts: 297
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From: Belfast, N. Ireland
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The Oxford dictionary offers 3 meanings for tyrant:
1 a cruel and oppressive ruler.
2 a person exercising power or control in a cruel and arbitrary way.
3 (especially in ancient Greece) a ruler who seized absolute power without legal right.
— ORIGIN Greek turannos
_____________________________
"No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
John Donne
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/10/2008 11:36:33 AM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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quote:
3 (especially in ancient Greece) a ruler who seized absolute power without legal right.
Yes, that's what I was looking for, thanks.
I think we ought to respect authority as Paul says -- but when a person or group tries to exert power outside of the law, for instance, by appealing to crowds, then they ough to be ignored or, if necessary, stopped. This I thikn is consistent with Paul because it is the difference between being an authority (as granted by divine right theory or a system of law) and appealing to others for authority out of ambition, pride, weakness, fear, etc.
Applying this to the death penalty: Socialist or communist governments make an appeal to the mob by establishing a sprurious code of ethic and reason. Hitler obviously appealed to crowds. (Okay, Jesus appealed to crowds, I ajust reqalized, but he also refused political power as offered by the devil.) Does that mean a leader can't be charismatic? I think I am saying we just ought to be wary about where justification for power and rule come from -- is it from the law, from the awe of authority itself, is a redundant complicity being asked for (redeundant in the sense that authority always implies subservience)? Thus, if it is the law of the land to execute murderers, than I am satisfied knowing they knew what was coming to them -- a state exists to keep order. However, when reason is brought to bear on the matter, I am a little put-off. When the Bible is brought to bear, by contrast, I am pleased. When someone says, "the death penalty is a deterrant," I feel that I am being asked to agree with its righteousness, to become a judge or lawmaker myself -- which I am not. Even more to the point, I find that I am being asked to rule on something for which their is no clear answer: I am being asked to understand the psychology of a murderer. I would rather just say, you killed, and you knew the consequences. We forgive you before your death, but the state has lost faith in you as a citizen.
I very much like what Paul said, that authoriy can only come from God, because it makes me realize that when an entity is trying to justify its authority on anything else (other than either God, the divine right, or paradox) then I feel that they do not have authority from God.
< Message edited by hellohellohi -- 7/10/2008 11:42:38 AM >
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