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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/10/2008 12:05:05 PM
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doublecross
Posts: 121
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
quote:
Romans 13:2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
This is a very helpful passage. I appreciate y'all bringing it to my immediate attention.
However, I would like to ask some further questions, some strange ones perhaps.
First of all, there is the question of the Nazis and such. Weren't they an "authority"? I am not trying to be mean or to disagree with scripture. I just want to discuss and understand.
I would reconcile Romans with the Third Reich (etc.) by this: The governments of old were tyrannies. EDIT: And today's pay at least lip service to democracy.
But, you will, say, weren't the Nazis tryants and Hitler a dictator? Yes, but he was also a populist.
I am curious if the rules about obeying government change when we are talking about, well, democracies/ mob-rule.
I am a respecter of monarchies and authorities of this nature. However, I do not like authorities that try to justify their position on anything but the fact of their power (military, inftrastructure, etc.), God, or some Mandate of Heaven (doesn't have to be overtly Christian, it seems). It is true that the theory of the Mandate of Heaven included that governments ought to be overthrown if corrupt, but a new ruler immediately also allowed to take his place. However, democracies and governments that appeal to logic, science, or something other than power, basically, as their right of sovereignty seem to also forfeit the respect expressed by God through Paul.
I have been thinking about this awhile, and I haven't posed it to many Christians, so I would appreciate your thoughts.
HHH,
Think about Daniel and the circumstances that surrounded his life. Think also of the Romans where people has to kill people in order to ascend to power.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/11/2008 3:00:11 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
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From: North Carolina!
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quote:
Think also of the Romans where people has to kill people in order to ascend to power.
Well, killing people to ascend to power would be illegal. So, I believe also that Paul is suggesting that governments that follow the law are to be accorded all respect. If an individual kills to get in power, perhaps they have broken the law. If not, if that killing was part of a lawful war, for instance, then I think that would be a legitmate power, as discussed by Paul.
About Daniel, I am sadly unfamilar with the story. Perhaps you can remind me or I will go back and read it.
Of course, if there is nothing wrong with the death penatlty than why should there be anything wrong with killing in principle? The context of the killing is important.
But please tell me more of your thoughts.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/11/2008 4:03:26 PM
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McFatty
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I haven't been following this post, so I'll just respond to the question.
I have struggled with this topic. I've gone back and forth. On the one hand, it's not cool to make people pay for someone to live, especially if they've done nothing but harm others. On the other, I always have a problem sanctioning the destruction of the image of God. If we could find a cheaper alternative to life in prison, I'd be happier with it. I feel love toward these people who are sentenced to death, so it's hard for me to take the "Fry 'em all! Fry 'em all!" stance.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/11/2008 5:03:24 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 626
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quote:
I feel love toward these people who are sentenced to death,
If you can feel love for the animal that did this i just have to wonder what love means.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,359224,00.html
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/11/2008 5:18:24 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
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I know what love means. I stopped thinking of people who do bad things as animals. I was tired of being angry. God told me to love my neighbors, to love my friends and to love my enemies. I think that covers just about everyone.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/11/2008 5:39:19 PM
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HisFish
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It's easy to say you love the murderers of others unknown to you, but if that 3yr old child had been yours, i wonder if you could still say the same thing.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/11/2008 5:49:44 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16933
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
It's easy to say you love the murderers of others unknown to you, but if that 3yr old child had been yours, i wonder if you could still say the same thing.
I remember reading a story about Corrie ten Boom (sp?). She and her sister were in the infamous German concentration camp Ravensbruck among others. She lost her sister in a German concentration camp. After the war was over, she was speaking about forgiveness and a man approached her afterward. He was a guard at the concentration camp where her sister died. She had the opportunity to forgive or not; it was her choice, just like us.
Forgiveness is our choice. The death penalty is not in direct opposition to forgiveness. If someone were to kill someone close to me, I pray that God would give me the strength to forgive them. But the state would still quite possibly prescribe the death penalty. Note the words I bolded. The state prescribes this penalty, not the victim. So the revenge/ forgiveness issue is not an issue at all.
BTW, if you're asking whether or not Corrie ten Boom forgave the man, she said she did. She also said it was the hardest thing she ever did.
Back to the quote... If someone hurt or killed someone I love, it would be very difficult to forgive them. But even if I didn't, my forgiveness or lack thereof has nothing to do with them getting or not getting capital punishment.
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/11/2008 6:07:24 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
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From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
It's easy to say you love the murderers of others unknown to you, but if that 3yr old child had been yours, i wonder if you could still say the same thing.
I'd like to think I would. The Lord gives and the Lord takes away, a man once said. Do I know for sure? Of course not. But that doesn't mean we should assume that people won't forgive.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/11/2008 6:08:28 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
It's easy to say you love the murderers of others unknown to you, but if that 3yr old child had been yours, i wonder if you could still say the same thing.
I remember reading a story about Corrie ten Boom (sp?). She and her sister were in the infamous German concentration camp Ravensbruck among others. She lost her sister in a German concentration camp. After the war was over, she was speaking about forgiveness and a man approached her afterward. He was a guard at the concentration camp where her sister died. She had the opportunity to forgive or not; it was her choice, just like us.
Forgiveness is our choice. The death penalty is not in direct opposition to forgiveness. If someone were to kill someone close to me, I pray that God would give me the strength to forgive them. But the state would still quite possibly prescribe the death penalty. Note the words I bolded. The state prescribes this penalty, not the victim. So the revenge/ forgiveness issue is not an issue at all.
BTW, if you're asking whether or not Corrie ten Boom forgave the man, she said she did. She also said it was the hardest thing she ever did.
Back to the quote... If someone hurt or killed someone I love, it would be very difficult to forgive them. But even if I didn't, my forgiveness or lack thereof has nothing to do with them getting or not getting capital punishment.
Forgiveness doesn't. Love, however, might. That's the struggle, for me.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/11/2008 6:11:33 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16933
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
It's easy to say you love the murderers of others unknown to you, but if that 3yr old child had been yours, i wonder if you could still say the same thing.
I remember reading a story about Corrie ten Boom (sp?). She and her sister were in the infamous German concentration camp Ravensbruck among others. She lost her sister in a German concentration camp. After the war was over, she was speaking about forgiveness and a man approached her afterward. He was a guard at the concentration camp where her sister died. She had the opportunity to forgive or not; it was her choice, just like us.
Forgiveness is our choice. The death penalty is not in direct opposition to forgiveness. If someone were to kill someone close to me, I pray that God would give me the strength to forgive them. But the state would still quite possibly prescribe the death penalty. Note the words I bolded. The state prescribes this penalty, not the victim. So the revenge/ forgiveness issue is not an issue at all.
BTW, if you're asking whether or not Corrie ten Boom forgave the man, she said she did. She also said it was the hardest thing she ever did.
Back to the quote... If someone hurt or killed someone I love, it would be very difficult to forgive them. But even if I didn't, my forgiveness or lack thereof has nothing to do with them getting or not getting capital punishment.
Forgiveness doesn't. Love, however, might. That's the struggle, for me.
I'm not sure if I follow you. Forgiveness is based on love. I can (hopefully) forgive. In Christ it can be done. But as I was saying, that does not reflect what the state will prescribe. The state owes no forgiveness. I do. That's the difference.
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/11/2008 6:19:38 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
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I understand that armydude. My point is a bit different. You're right in saying that the state doesn't owe forgiveness. We do. So if we forgive and love the offender, why do we, as loving and forgiving Christians, vote to enact laws killing them? That's where my thoughts go.
We should follow the law, of course. But in a society where we have a part in creating those laws, shouldn't we apply our forgiveness and love when doing so?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/11/2008 6:23:50 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16933
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I understand that armydude. My point is a bit different. You're right in saying that the state doesn't owe forgiveness. We do. So if we forgive and love the offender, why do we, as loving and forgiving Christians, vote to enact laws killing them? That's where my thoughts go.
We should follow the law, of course. But in a society where we have a part in creating those laws, shouldn't we apply our forgiveness and love when doing so?
That I can understand. I do however agree with the premise behind capital punishment. Life in prison is really a reward for hardened criminals; a lifetime of free food and lodging. How can that be a punishment considering so many criminals that get out of prison commit crimes just to go back in?
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/11/2008 6:28:19 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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I understand your point regarding prison being comfortable (albeit after a while). However, this alone doesn't make it right to kill someone, nor do financial problems (if that were the case, abortion would be fine). There are a few other options, each of which isn't glorious in any way. There's always the option to create a penal colony, much like the British did with Australia. Also, there's the idea of inducing a coma and feeding the offenders through tubes forever. No solution is perfect, but I just hesitate to support one which destroys life, no matter how "animalistic" that life might seem. Without Jesus, I'm no better than they are.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/11/2008 6:39:55 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16933
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I understand your point regarding prison being comfortable (albeit after a while). However, this alone doesn't make it right to kill someone, nor do financial problems (if that were the case, abortion would be fine). There are a few other options, each of which isn't glorious in any way. There's always the option to create a penal colony, much like the British did with Australia. Also, there's the idea of inducing a coma and feeding the offenders through tubes forever. No solution is perfect, but I just hesitate to support one which destroys life, no matter how "animalistic" that life might seem. Without Jesus, I'm no better than they are.
Without Jesus, we're all in the same boat. But don't forget that it's the church's duty to share the gospel. It's the government's duty to keep the peace. And sometimes that involves doing things that aren't very popular.
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/11/2008 6:46:57 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I understand your point regarding prison being comfortable (albeit after a while). However, this alone doesn't make it right to kill someone, nor do financial problems (if that were the case, abortion would be fine). There are a few other options, each of which isn't glorious in any way. There's always the option to create a penal colony, much like the British did with Australia. Also, there's the idea of inducing a coma and feeding the offenders through tubes forever. No solution is perfect, but I just hesitate to support one which destroys life, no matter how "animalistic" that life might seem. Without Jesus, I'm no better than they are.
Without Jesus, we're all in the same boat. But don't forget that it's the church's duty to share the gospel. It's the government's duty to keep the peace. And sometimes that involves doing things that aren't very popular.
I don't mind being on the wrong side of popularity. It's my vote with which I struggle. If peace can be kept without killing, I'm all about it. If not, so be it.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/11/2008 10:29:10 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
On the other, I always have a problem sanctioning the destruction of the image of God.
Given that God commands it the problem should be on what grounds are you against what God has ordained... It's very strange to that people debate the "morality" of it when God himself ordained it...
quote:
I feel love toward these people who are sentenced to death, so it's hard for me to take the "Fry 'em all! Fry 'em all!" stance.
The biblical stance for the death penalty doesn't include the concept of "Fry 'em all! Fry 'em all!" It should humble any with even a ounce of true fear of God...
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/11/2008 10:37:49 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I understand that armydude. My point is a bit different. You're right in saying that the state doesn't owe forgiveness. We do. So if we forgive and love the offender, why do we, as loving and forgiving Christians, vote to enact laws killing them? That's where my thoughts go.
Forgiving and loving the offender and him or her receiving their due rewards can co-exist... I prayed for the soul of the person who raped my children and prayed as well that God would deal with him when the courts let him off... I prayed for justice and that God's will be done... No hate, though a ton of righteous indignation... The man didn't didn't tell the police he moved and now he is doing 13 plus years... Hardly the just punishment for raping no less than three children but God will not be mocked...
quote:
We should follow the law, of course. But in a society where we have a part in creating those laws, shouldn't we apply our forgiveness and love when doing so?
What is that application? What does it mean to forgive and love? Without a doubt the thief on the cross was forgiven, even for the crimes that led to him justly receiving his due reward. Death at the hands of the God ordained civil government who is God's minister of wrath for those who do evil... Righttfully applying God's law...
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/11/2008 10:38:39 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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Obviously I wouldn't be here if I were against what God ordained, but it's clear that our duties as followers of God changed with the resurrection of the Christ. New Testament godliness is different than Old Testament godliness. Of course Levitical laws told the Hebrews to enact a death penalty.
If we accept this Levitical principle, we must accept all that goes with it to remain consistent, right? We must stone to death anyone who blasphemes, as per Leviticus 24:16. We must put to death whoever works on the Sabbath, regardless of what they do, according to Exodus 35:2. We shall stone to death disobedient sons, according to Deuteronomy 21:18-21. There are many more, but those ordinations are for specific infractions. We either accept them as they are or we don't.
The "Fry 'em all" comment was basically saying that before you back up the death penalty, search your own heart to see if it's vengeance which is driving this feeling. Vengeance is spoken against many more times in the Bible than homosexuality, yet there are modern crusades against the latter and hardly a word against the former. Think about that.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/11/2008 10:44:30 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I understand your point regarding prison being comfortable (albeit after a while). However, this alone doesn't make it right to kill someone, nor do financial problems (if that were the case, abortion would be fine). There are a few other options, each of which isn't glorious in any way. There's always the option to create a penal colony, much like the British did with Australia. Also, there's the idea of inducing a coma and feeding the offenders through tubes forever. No solution is perfect,
The bible offeres the solution... Actually it commands it... No need to make something up when God made it quite clear what to do with those who murder...
quote:
but I just hesitate to support one which destroys life, no matter how "animalistic" that life might seem. Without Jesus, I'm no better than they are.
That fact that ALL of mankind falls short of the glory of the God doesn't make everyone the same in regards to the temporal consquences for one's actions. Temporal justice isn't guided by the fact that mankind are all sinners in the eyes of God and deserve nothing short of His wrath... God ordained the means to deal with those who do evil and I don't see how a child of God could be against what God ordained...
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/11/2008 10:58:33 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Obviously I wouldn't be here if I were against what God ordained, but it's clear that our duties as followers of God changed with the resurrection of the Christ. New Testament godliness is different than Old Testament godliness
That would amount to God changing... Christ said if you love me keep my commandments... He summed up the ten with two...
quote:
Of course Levitical laws told the Hebrews to enact a death penalty.If we accept this Levitical principle, we must accept all that goes with it to remain consistent, right?
Where in the New Testament is the death penalty revoked? The God ordained duty of the state is to be HIS minister of the wrath for those who do evil... And there is nothing in scriptures thats says the state must invoke all laws of the bible...
quote:
The "Fry 'em all" comment was basically saying that before you back up the death penalty, search your own heart to see if it's vengeance which is driving this feeling.
Of course... Though one can love those who are being justly put to death... Love isn't centered around the person not getting what they justly should... If you believe it's loving for a person to get life in prision as opposed to death, does that mean a person who thinks they should get probation loves them more?
quote:
Vengeance is spoken against many more times in the Bible than homosexuality, yet there are modern crusades against the latter and hardly a word against the former. Think about that.
Yes, because God being the jealous type doesn't like to share... Vengeance is His... That's why He ordained the civil government to deal with those who do evil... His minister of wrath...
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/12/2008 1:29:23 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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John, are the clothes you wear of different fabrics? I don't know of a specific New Testament verse revoking that law.
Regardless, the fact that the ways people serve God have changed over the years doesn't mean God has changed. That's a very common misconception. God's laws have changed. Some are specifically handled in the New Testament. That doesn't mean God changed.
Have you stoned your children to death whenever they disobeyed you?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/12/2008 2:55:57 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
John, are the clothes you wear of different fabrics?
Is this supposed to have some significance regarding the OT and NT?
quote:
I don't know of a specific New Testament verse revoking that law.
You post as if there is one...
quote:
Regardless, the fact that the ways people serve God have changed over the years doesn't mean God has changed.
Not matter how you phrase it you will end up with God changing...
quote:
That's a very common misconception.
What misconception?
quote:
God's laws have changed
What has changed in God's law that has anything to do with what God says is the just punishment for murder?
quote:
Some are specifically handled in the New Testament. That doesn't mean God changed.
Like what? Can we steal? Murder? Lie? Is the punishment for murder clearly stated in the bible revoked? Are any of the Ten given to Moses revoked?
quote:
Have you stoned your children to death whenever they disobeyed you?
You should read up on that one... That was the last resort, not the first...
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/12/2008 10:47:13 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
John, are the clothes you wear of different fabrics?
Is this supposed to have some significance regarding the OT and NT?
quote:
I don't know of a specific New Testament verse revoking that law.
You post as if there is one...
quote:
Regardless, the fact that the ways people serve God have changed over the years doesn't mean God has changed.
Not matter how you phrase it you will end up with God changing...
quote:
That's a very common misconception.
What misconception?
quote:
God's laws have changed
What has changed in God's law that has anything to do with what God says is the just punishment for murder?
quote:
Some are specifically handled in the New Testament. That doesn't mean God changed.
Like what? Can we steal? Murder? Lie? Is the punishment for murder clearly stated in the bible revoked? Are any of the Ten given to Moses revoked?
quote:
Have you stoned your children to death whenever they disobeyed you?
You should read up on that one... That was the last resort, not the first...
John
You're saying that absolutely nothing changed from OT to NT? That would be a very incorrect statement, but according to you, that amounts to God changing. There is documented change in the way we're supposed to behave.
What does stealing, murdering and lying have to do with this? Is one of the commandments "Thou shalt enforce laws through the death of criminals"? This isn't a debate about the ten commandments or keeping the Law. There's a one-stop thread for that. This is about the death penalty.
The death penalty was used for very VERY specific things in the Old Testament. How can you take those specific ordinations and apply them differently, yet still cite the same verses?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/12/2008 10:55:18 AM
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armydude
Posts: 16933
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
Status: offline
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This is just my opinion, but the Old Testament and the New Testament are not at odds with each other. The Old Testament prescribed the death penalty (to be administered by the governing agency that God had placed over the people) for a variety of crimes. The New Testament proclaimed that one could obtain forgiveness for sins, but it did not supersede the Old Testament's punishment for the crime. IOW, you could be forgiven from God, but there was a price to pay here. The best idea is not to commit the crime at all...
But to assume that divine forgiveness cancels the government's responsibility to address the crime is incorrect.
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No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/12/2008 11:08:23 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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Divine forgiveness certainly doesn't. The forgiveness that we are supposed to have as Christians, forgiveness coming from men, may, however. "Government" isn't an entity separate from people, no matter how clean that makes things. It's, at least in the US, "of the people". This means that if these people are forgiving Christians, that will extend into the government.
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“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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