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RE: Justice - 7/14/2008 9:34:54 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
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From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: doublecross
Well, McFatty, you said, "Obviously everything originates from God. I'm not arguing that. However, God told us to forgive, which means there is effort on our part in the act of forgiveness. "
We'll be stuck here for a while because that is the basis for your whole argument. Because the concept of forgiveness does not change.
Quoting the temptation of Jesus to judge a woman supposedly caught in adultery deserves an observation on the whole circumstances surrounding Him at that time. It is not simply a statement of "hey forgive this girl her sins!".
Jesus was being tempted and he knew it! They wanted to find fault in him. They wanted them to act like a civil servant which he was not. They wanted him to be judge and prosecutor like Saul. The law requires both involved parties to be present in the trial, the man was not present, only the woman. There must be a fair trial. They wanted mob justice not judicial process. All Jesus could do to stop the most unfair process is to expose them to their own lies, their conscience being their witness.
Proverbs 21:3
To do righteousness and justice Is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
It's not quite the basis for my whole argument, but okay. I said earlier that love was more important than forgiveness. I'll reexamine my take on death penalty for murderers when we're just as willing to kill someone for being called into work on Saturday as we are for murder.
Romans 13
1. Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4. For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Nope... Not a single mention that in order to be God's minister for those who do evil that the civil government must invoke every law...
Since you stand on that view I am sure you have a verse to suppport your view, right?
John
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RE: Justice - 7/14/2008 10:13:00 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 275
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From: Ottawa
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quote:
Nope... Not a single mention that in order to be God's minister for those who do evil that the civil government must invoke every law...
There's also not a single mention that the governments punish those who do good, but obviously governments do, because, just for example, many governments have executed Christians. Paul doesn't suggest in this passage that there are provisions under which governments would lose their ordination for such misdeeds, either.
The government is permitted considerable freedom of action in Romans 13. It is up to us, if we have representative governments, to decide what to do with that freedom of action. And I am opposed to the taking of human life. Paul doesn't say how a Christian should use the freedom of action, because in his time, and among the people he was writing to, there was really no thought that they could make such political decisions. Government was something other, something non-Christian, even anti-Christian in some cases.
Paul does write elsewhere that while everything is permissible - and indeed, in Romans 13, for the government there's a great deal that is permissible - not everything is beneficial. And I do not believe that the death penalty is beneficial due to my regard for the sanctity of human life. Whether you believe the government has permission to kill someone or not, the fact is that I regard doing so - with permission or not - as incompatible with my call to love others as I love myself.
The problem being referred to, however, is still a significant one, and you really haven't addressed it. You can't appeal to an OT law as a moral basis for justly using capital punishment in one case if you're not willing to appeal to it on the same basis in another case. Paul is pretty explicit in saying that we can't just pick and choose what standards to apply. The law is the law; take it or leave it. If we do take the OT law as a basis for deciding what is good and what is evil (and therefore what evil governments ought to punish), then by choosing to enforce only some laws and blatantly ignoring or not punishing others is in itself sinful.
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RE: Justice - 7/14/2008 10:20:54 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
There's also not a single mention that the governments punish those who do good, but obviously governments do, because, just for example, many governments have executed Christians.
That doesn't change what God ordained....
quote:
Paul doesn't suggest in this passage that there are provisions under which governments would lose their ordination for such misdeeds, either.
Your point? Or is this worded wrong?
quote:
The government is permitted considerable freedom of action in Romans 13. It is up to us, if we have representative governments, to decide what to do with that freedom of actionAnd I am opposed to the taking of human life .
The bible isn't, so that trumps your personal view...
quote:
Paul doesn't say how a Christian should use the freedom of action, because in his time, and among the people he was writing to, there was really no thought that they could make such political decisions.
Paul was a Roman citizen and they had elected senate...
quote:
Government was something other, something non-Christian, even anti-Christian in some cases.
Yes, and even so God ordained it to be HIS minister of wrath for those who do evil...
quote:
Paul does write elsewhere that while everything is permissible - and indeed, in Romans 13, for the government there's a great deal that is permissible - not everything is beneficial. And I do not believe that the death penalty is beneficial due to my regard for the sanctity of human life.
The bible doesn't share your view of the the sanctity of human life for those who have done somthing that warrants their life being taken...
John
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RE: Justice - 7/15/2008 1:40:53 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 831
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From: Augusta, GA
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SovereignIsHe,
You seem to believe that the NT needs a specific verse for everything that changed. If that were the case, the NT would be even longer than the OT. I realize you already have your mind made up that killing people is the right thing to do (if you work for the government), and probably on the subject of change from OT to NT also, so when I cite Galatians 5:18, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.", you may interpret it differently. Here's what I see in the Bible, whether you choose to agree or not: when Jesus fulfilled the Law (like a man fulfilling a promise, He satisfied the law), every penalty for breaking the Law had been paid, and the Spirit took over as a guide for people. Do you need scripture references for all these points I believe to be pretty central to Christianity?
Let me say that I fully support your American right to vote to use the death penalty. That's your right as an American, since by voting, you are essentially choosing who is part of the government. If you proudly support representatives who seek the death penalty for murder but not for violating the Sabbath, that's your right, since the civil government is not invoking every law.
What is the difference, then, if I choose to support a representative who will not seek the death penalty for murder, but will seek other, perhaps less harsh, penalties for lesser crimes, since it's the same civil government not invoking every law?
Also, by the time the Pauline Epsitles were written, Rome was a hundred years into its Empire, and the "elected" senate had little power in comparison to the Emperor. I say "elected", because only the sons of senators were qualified to become senators since the mandate was drawn up by Emperor Augustus Caesar.
Finally, in the case of John 8, regardless of what the Pharisees were trying to make Jesus do, the fact remains that they caught a criminal performing a crime for which the established penalty was death, and Jesus told them that only the one who was without sin should begin the execution. There was one person without sin in the midst, and He showed forgiveness not only as a man, not only as God, but also as the sovereign King of Israel. He did not throw a stone, nor did he permit others to do so. He told the woman to go free.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Justice - 7/15/2008 2:02:31 AM
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doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: ConstantReader
I'm against the DP.
I don't like it personally, but I do see the need for it.
I am not breaking an champaign for it but justice must be served.
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RE: Justice - 7/15/2008 2:13:54 AM
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doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: doublecross
Well, McFatty, you said, "Obviously everything originates from God. I'm not arguing that. However, God told us to forgive, which means there is effort on our part in the act of forgiveness. "
We'll be stuck here for a while because that is the basis for your whole argument. Because the concept of forgiveness does not change.
Quoting the temptation of Jesus to judge a woman supposedly caught in adultery deserves an observation on the whole circumstances surrounding Him at that time. It is not simply a statement of "hey forgive this girl her sins!".
Jesus was being tempted and he knew it! They wanted to find fault in him. They wanted them to act like a civil servant which he was not. They wanted him to be judge and prosecutor like Saul. The law requires both involved parties to be present in the trial, the man was not present, only the woman. There must be a fair trial. They wanted mob justice not judicial process. All Jesus could do to stop the most unfair process is to expose them to their own lies, their conscience being their witness.
Proverbs 21:3
To do righteousness and justice Is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
It's not quite the basis for my whole argument, but okay. I said earlier that love was more important than forgiveness. I'll reexamine my take on death penalty for murderers when we're just as willing to kill someone for being called into work on Saturday as we are for murder.
Sure that is if our nation has covenanted with God (sabbath is a sign of Israel's covenant with God) and that is if we ever have a Sabbath Law. Most of the nations around us does not have one. Maybe you do have one in yours but from where I stand, we do not have one in the books.
Unless you are in a Theocratic State let's keep discussing what we have in our societies. I am pretty sure every government has at least some form of law against murder of which we can focus on so let's not throw any red herrings around.
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RE: Justice - 7/15/2008 3:28:44 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 831
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doublecross
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: doublecross
Well, McFatty, you said, "Obviously everything originates from God. I'm not arguing that. However, God told us to forgive, which means there is effort on our part in the act of forgiveness. "
We'll be stuck here for a while because that is the basis for your whole argument. Because the concept of forgiveness does not change.
Quoting the temptation of Jesus to judge a woman supposedly caught in adultery deserves an observation on the whole circumstances surrounding Him at that time. It is not simply a statement of "hey forgive this girl her sins!".
Jesus was being tempted and he knew it! They wanted to find fault in him. They wanted them to act like a civil servant which he was not. They wanted him to be judge and prosecutor like Saul. The law requires both involved parties to be present in the trial, the man was not present, only the woman. There must be a fair trial. They wanted mob justice not judicial process. All Jesus could do to stop the most unfair process is to expose them to their own lies, their conscience being their witness.
Proverbs 21:3
To do righteousness and justice Is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
It's not quite the basis for my whole argument, but okay. I said earlier that love was more important than forgiveness. I'll reexamine my take on death penalty for murderers when we're just as willing to kill someone for being called into work on Saturday as we are for murder.
Sure that is if our nation has covenanted with God (sabbath is a sign of Israel's covenant with God) and that is if we ever have a Sabbath Law. Most of the nations around us does not have one. Maybe you do have one in yours but from where I stand, we do not have one in the books.
Unless you are in a Theocratic State let's keep discussing what we have in our societies. I am pretty sure every government has at least some form of law against murder of which we can focus on so let's not throw any red herrings around.
I believe it is very relevant. I chose the Sabbath law, but I could choose one of many other old testament laws which require the death penalty. My point is that if someone uses the old testament laws to say that God wants us to kill as a punishment, what gives anyone the right to pick and choose which of God's laws they'll follow? You can't just say "We'll kill people who murder," because it sounds good, and cite the Mosaic Law but refuse to even talk about the other offenses which are supposed to, by Old Testament law, be punished by death. I'll list a few for you.
Striking your mother, striking your father, kidnapping, sorcery, bestiality, sacrificing to another god, fortune telling, adultery, premarital sex (for a woman), homosexual relations, perjury, contempt of court. There are many more.
If we're sooooo eager to defend death penalty for murder citing the old testament as the reason, we're hypocrites if we don't campaign for, with the same enthusiasm, the death penalty for all of these crimes, as well as the exact punishments for all the other crimes in the old testament law.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Justice - 7/15/2008 4:28:32 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1756
Joined: 4/8/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Striking your mother, striking your father, kidnapping, sorcery, bestiality, sacrificing to another god, fortune telling, adultery, premarital sex (for a woman), homosexual relations, perjury, contempt of court. There are many more.
If we're sooooo eager to defend death penalty for murder citing the old testament as the reason, we're hypocrites if we don't campaign for, with the same enthusiasm, the death penalty for all of these crimes, as well as the exact punishments for all the other crimes in the old testament law.
I like you, McFatty. Once again, you're right on. In the other thread on this topic, I wrote about how this discussion draws us away from solving/preventing crime from the outset. As someone who has written countless pre-sentence investigation reports it sure seems like we waste a lot of time arguing about things that resolve nothing. We get propsals and, ultimately, legislation from politicians who promise us they are going to fix things and take care of criminals. Yet, we have an ever growing corrections system and incarcerate more people per capita than any other nation. Why aren't these proposals or the legislation fixing the problem?
We get so hung up on arguments that we feel strong convictions about that we forget to see the forest for the trees. We have developed so many formulas for how to deal with the worst of the worst and we have yet to figure it out. We keep letting the career criminals go to wreak havoc again and we want to bring terminal punishment to anyone who commits a heinous enough rime to grab national headlines. In my correctiosn career I've met thousands of criminals. Some of the murderers that I've met are model inmates. They are decent people. They've been convicted of something atrocious and are paying the price for it. At the same time, I've met others who have a string of convictions for burglary, drugs, assault, etc. that will not meet the fate of a murder until they actually kill someone. From what I've gained in getting to know these offenders and their personalities, they have a criminal mind and our continually letting them off will inevitably lead to the loss of someone elses life.
It seems, more than anything else, discussions such as this one serve no other purpose than to allow people to pontificate.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Justice - 7/15/2008 6:54:56 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
SovereignIsHe,
You seem to believe that the NT needs a specific verse for everything that changed. If that were the case, the NT would be even longer than the OT. I realize you already have your mind made up that killing people is the right thing to do (if you work for the government), and probably on the subject of change from OT to NT also, so when I cite Galatians 5:18, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.", you may interpret it differently.
Under the law in regards to that it's not the path to salvation... It's not revoking it in total... The law isn't suspended... It's no ok to lie, steal or murder...
quote:
Here's what I see in the Bible, whether you choose to agree or not: when Jesus fulfilled the Law (like a man fulfilling a promise, He satisfied the law), every penalty for breaking the Law had been paid, and the Spirit took over as a guide for people. Do you need scripture references for all these points I believe to be pretty central to Christianity?
Paid for in the eternal sense, but not the temporal consequences. If you apply your reasoning as it stands you should be against anything that is means to the people having to deal with the consequences of their actions. Cops, judges, prisons, even a church removing the person who refuses to repent are all acting in conflict with God's word according to you... How to you reconcile that?
quote:
What is the difference, then, if I choose to support a representative who will not seek the death penalty for murder, but will seek other, perhaps less harsh, penalties for lesser crimes, since it's the same civil government not invoking every law?
How can you support any form of punishment?
What happened to forgive and forget?
And in the very post....
every penalty for breaking the Law had been paid
quote:
Finally, in the case of John 8, regardless of what the Pharisees were trying to make Jesus do, the fact remains that they caught a criminal performing a crime for which the established penalty was death, and Jesus told them that only the one who was without sin should begin the execution. There was one person without sin in the midst, and He showed forgiveness not only as a man, not only as God, but also as the sovereign King of Israel. He did not throw a stone, nor did he permit others to do so. He told the woman to go free.
The fact is they didn't adhere to the law... They perverted justice in order to accuse Him and Jesus knew this....Not to mention Jesus wasn't in a position to judge her apart from your claim of Him being the sovereign King of Israel...
John
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RE: Justice - 7/15/2008 6:59:16 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
I like you, McFatty. Once again, you're right on.
You believe that no punishment is just? That's is what McFatty posts...
quote:
In the other thread on this topic, I wrote about how this discussion draws us away from solving/preventing crime from the outset.
What is the just punishment for the crime doesn't have to satisfy solving crime...
quote:
As someone who has written countless pre-sentence investigation reports it sure seems like we waste a lot of time arguing about things that resolve nothing. We get propsals and, ultimately, legislation from politicians who promise us they are going to fix things and take care of criminals. Yet, we have an ever growing corrections system and incarcerate more people per capita than any other nation. Why aren't these proposals or the legislation fixing the problem?
We get so hung up on arguments that we feel strong convictions about that we forget to see the forest for the trees. We have developed so many formulas for how to deal with the worst of the worst and we have yet to figure it out. We keep letting the career criminals go to wreak havoc again and we want to bring terminal punishment to anyone who commits a heinous enough rime to grab national headlines. In my correctiosn career I've met thousands of criminals. Some of the murderers that I've met are model inmates. They are decent people. They've been convicted of something atrocious and are paying the price for it. At the same time, I've met others who have a string of convictions for burglary, drugs, assault, etc. that will not meet the fate of a murder until they actually kill someone. From what I've gained in getting to know these offenders and their personalities, they have a criminal mind and our continually letting them off will inevitably lead to the loss of someone elses life.
It seems, more than anything else, discussions such as this one serve no other purpose than to allow people to pontificate.
Without a doubt...
John
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RE: Justice - 7/15/2008 7:17:09 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1756
Joined: 4/8/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
You believe that no punishment is just? That's is what McFatty posts...
That's not at all what I said or what I got out of McFatty's post, John. Being locked up, removed from society is the punishment. While the law prescribes death for some crimes, the punishment is final. Yet, to many, simply being locked up is not punishment enough. Many seem to want all prisoners to suffer while incarcerated. I can understand the anger that many feel when their tax dollars are paying for inmates to have cable TV, educational and recreational opportunities that most of us can't afford. At the same time, providing them with nothing only makes them worse when they come out. All the while we, the church, sit here and argue about the morality of punishment and get mad at the system for not fixing people we've failed to disciple in the first place.
quote:
What is the just punishment for the crime doesn't have to satisfy solving crime...
It doesn't? Is punishment supposed ot serve as a deterrent or not?
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Justice - 7/15/2008 7:48:48 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 831
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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John, you say the only just means of dealing with murder is to kill the offender, but God has repeatedly shown mercy, which you claim is completely unjust, to people in the same situation.
I don't believe that there should be no punishment whatsoever. You're taking that extra step from what I said on your own. I believe that death is not a punishment we HAVE to administer, and that mercy is more desirable in general in the Bible than the maximum punishment.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Justice - 7/15/2008 7:57:39 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
John, you say the only just means of dealing with murder is to kill the offender, but God has repeatedly shown mercy, which you claim is completely unjust, to people in the same situation.
I never said God showing mercy is unjust... Your view isn't God's view... Nor does an act of mercy revoke what said to be the just punishment.
quote:
I don't believe that there should be no punishment whatsoever. You're taking that extra step from what I said on your own.
You may not, but you argued for it in your attempt to make your point...
quote:
I believe that death is not a punishment we HAVE to administer, and that mercy is more desirable in general in the Bible than the maximum punishment.
According to what? God showing mercy here and there?
John
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RE: Justice - 7/15/2008 8:02:59 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 831
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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Please answer this outright. Do you believe the death penalty is a punishment we are required to administer for kidnapping, fortune telling, and perjury? Do you believe mercy is not allowed? Do you believe the current punishments administered by many nations are unjust?
In what way is my view not God's view when He has shown mercy and has allowed men to do the same?
Is the showing of mercy not a spiritual gift ordained by God more recently?
God and kings have shown mercy in the Bible. You said mercy was inherently unjust.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Justice - 7/15/2008 8:05:09 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
That's not at all what I said or what I got out of McFatty's post, John. Being locked up, removed from society is the punishment. While the law prescribes death for some crimes, the punishment is final. Yet, to many, simply being locked up is not punishment enough. Many seem to want all prisoners to suffer while incarcerated.
What some people deisre doesn't make what God calls just, unjust... If the family of the victim of a murder get some pleasure from the bad guy being fried they have issue, yet that doesn't mean what was done is unjust...
quote:
I can understand the anger that many feel when their tax dollars are paying for inmates to have cable TV, educational and recreational opportunities that most of us can't afford. At the same time, providing them with nothing only makes them worse when they come out. All the while we, the church, sit here and argue about the morality of punishment and get mad at the system for not fixing people we've failed to disciple in the first place.
The posting here doesn't solve anything mantra doesn't amount to much... This is a forum for the exchange of ideas, posting is what goes on here and I for one don't buy into the charge that it's the church's fault people sin... The bible holds us each accountable for our deeds, and while the church as its issues as well, it's not responsible for the actions of those in prison...
quote:
It doesn't? Is punishment supposed ot serve as a deterrent or not?
No... It doesn't... Where in the bible does it say the punishment must deter in order to be just? That's a secular argument...
John
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RE: Justice - 7/15/2008 8:08:21 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 831
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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Where in the Bible does it say, for a particular crime, in these words or similar, "The death penalty, and nothing else or nothing less is just"?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Justice - 7/15/2008 8:10:36 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Please answer this outright.
Are you really asking someone to answer something outright?
quote:
Do you believe the death penalty is a punishment we are required to administer for kidnapping, fortune telling, and perjury?
Yes...
quote:
Do you believe mercy is not allowed?
Depends on if were are talking about biblical mercy or the version you post about...
quote:
Do you believe the current punishments administered by many nations are unjust
Some are... Some aren't....
quote:
In what way is my view not God's view when He has shown mercy and has allowed men to do the same?
Because you believe in oder for mercy to be mercy is has to be applied in all cases... God doesn't apply in that fashion...
quote:
Is the showing of mercy not a spiritual gift ordained by God more recently?
No... Mercy isn't a new thing... Adam was shown mercy right off the bat...
quote:
God and kings have shown mercy in the Bible. You said mercy was inherently unjust.
I said YOUR personal version is...
John
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RE: Justice - 7/15/2008 8:12:00 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Where in the Bible does it say, for a particular crime, in these words or similar, "The death penalty, and nothing else or nothing less is just"?
Where does it says something less is just, and I am not talking about the exceptions where mercy is shown....
John
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RE: Justice - 7/15/2008 8:24:25 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 687
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
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quote:
Original: Zamdad
All the while we, the church, sit here and argue about the morality of punishment and get mad at the system for not fixing people we've failed to disciple in the first place.
The prison system is full of murderer's and other kind's of criminal's because the church didnt disciple them??. Dont lay that at the feet of the church, You cant disciple the unregenerated.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Justice - 7/16/2008 9:50:17 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 831
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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John,
I believe all that we have standing between us now, aside from previously stated disagreements, is the law, and this isn't a "keep the law" thread, and I don't want it thrown into the one stop thread, so I'll leave it there.
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“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Justice - 7/16/2008 10:09:53 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6364
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
Original: Zamdad
All the while we, the church, sit here and argue about the morality of punishment and get mad at the system for not fixing people we've failed to disciple in the first place.
The prison system is full of murderer's and other kind's of criminal's because the church didnt disciple them??. Dont lay that at the feet of the church, You cant disciple the unregenerated.
That's the truth!
If we could disciple the unregenerated, perhaps the whole prison system could be closed.
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RE: Justice - 7/16/2008 10:36:44 AM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 541
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
Status: offline
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quote:
unregenerated
What is that? Never heard the term.
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RE: Justice - 7/16/2008 12:24:08 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6364
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
quote:
unregenerated
What is that? Never heard the term.
Not born again or the lost.
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RE: Justice - 7/16/2008 1:40:53 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 541
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
Status: offline
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Oh that makes sense as a term then -- re-generated or reborn, huh.
What is meant by, you can't disciple the unregenerated, then? I'm not sure I know what y'all are saying. Isn't the non-saved who we seek to evangelize to in order for them to be regenerated? I think I just don't get what y'all mean.
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RE: Justice - 7/16/2008 1:51:39 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6364
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
Oh that makes sense as a term then -- re-generated or reborn, huh.
What is meant by, you can't disciple the unregenerated, then? I'm not sure I know what y'all are saying. Isn't the non-saved who we seek to evangelize to in order for them to be regenerated? I think I just don't get what y'all mean.
They first have to be saved before trying to make them a disciple of Jesus.
Ironically, a lot of churches may be trying to disciple lost members.
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